Micheal Jackson; the heroin addict?

B

Black Swan

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Can anyone explain to me the difference between a heroin addict in (for example) Detroit commiting crime in order to gain his next fix of heroin from a dealer and a heroin addict commiting to 50 concerts to gain his next fix of a heroin substitute from a 'legitimate' Doctor?
 

Hip Hop

Junior member
35 6
Yes I can ! Mens rea. Or also known as "the guilty mind" I mean the Detroit crim, has or is likely to set out with a guilty mind, knowing he is about to steal another mans property without consent. So he will have the element of Mens rea. The other 2 parts for it to be an actual crime would be, Actus reus, or the actual guilty act, i.e lifting a stereo or tv set without consent. Technically you then need the 3 rd element in all common law crimes, that being an actual harm or injured party making a verifiable sworn complaint !

I mean no one complains, what harm done ?

Now I think Jackson defence would argue that he had no criminal intent in his actions, i.e. no guilty mind..... as he was scheduled to appear to perform, in order to meet his contractual obligations.

Now, those are just some of the technical differences between the 2, but, they both need help as equal as each other. A lot of people who use substances, do so to help eliminate symptoms of which the underlying cause creating them, is often neglected, not treated, or perhaps one which has no cure.

We can all take part in perhaps learning to take the time, in order to at least, ask, "hey, is everything ok , can I help, would you like to talk about it" etc.... I think a lot of these symptoms manifesting today, are a result of humans sadly not being "Humankind" with each other,and as such, it is a social disease in all of our societies, which affects us all.

Hip Hop.
 
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poborsky

Established member
536 60
We can all take part in perhaps learning to take the time, in order to at least, ask, "hey, is everything ok , can I help, would you like to talk about it" etc.... I think a lot of these symptoms manifesting today, are a result of humans sadly not being "Humankind" with each other,and as such, it is a social disease in all of our societies, which affects us all.

Hip Hop.
I spent all day Friday in a Spanish court house giving evidence after being attacked on Thursday evening in my local bar by one of the local drug addicts who was wielding a carving knife. If not for the swift action of the police then I probably would not be here now. I can assure you that he didnt want to be asked if everything was ok or for that matter talk about anything else. Sadly he is now walking the streets again after being handed a suspended sentence, until of course he does something similar again under the influence of drugs and alcohol. If you or your family would like to spend time talking to these people and ask them why they are mugging women and pensioners to buy drugs then that is your prerogative. Personally I would lock them up and throw away the key.
 
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Atilla

Legendary member
19,228 2,752
I spent all day Friday in a Spanish court house giving evidence after being attacked on Thursday evening in my local bar by one of the local drug addicts who was wielding a carving knife. If not for the swift action of the police then I probably would not be here now. I can assure you that he didnt want to be asked if everything was ok or for that matter talk about anything else. Sadly he is now walking the streets again after being handed a suspended sentence, until of course he does something similar again under the influence of drugs and alcohol. If you or your family would like to spend time talking to these people and ask them why they are mugging women and pensioners to buy drugs then that is your prerogative. Personally I would lock them up and throw away the key.
Same ol debate

Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work? - TIME

Cost of supplying drugs about £50m to the whole of UK if met by NHS.

Cost of fighting symptoms and secondary crime as a result of drugs runs into billions not to mention theft, burglaries and deaths.

Give the drug away for free and if some poor soul needs to cover up their pain and release their souls, then let them take their medicines all the way to the heavens.



No brainer. But try telling that to our politicians and police...
 
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Splitlink

Legendary member
10,850 1,232
I spent all day Friday in a Spanish court house giving evidence after being attacked on Thursday evening in my local bar by one of the local drug addicts who was wielding a carving knife. If not for the swift action of the police then I probably would not be here now. I can assure you that he didnt want to be asked if everything was ok or for that matter talk about anything else. Sadly he is now walking the streets again after being handed a suspended sentence, until of course he does something similar again under the influence of drugs and alcohol. If you or your family would like to spend time talking to these people and ask them why they are mugging women and pensioners to buy drugs then that is your prerogative. Personally I would lock them up and throw away the key.
I am afraid that we are attacking the addicts instead of the producers. Unless we find a way to stop this at source there will be no end to drug crime on our streets.

We must face the uncomfortable fact that a lot of our drug money is paid for with arms and other exports. How else are these rebel generals paying for their wars?

I find it difficult to believe that the US can do nothing to stop the flood of narcotics needed to keep it's drug addicted populations supplied. This comes from policy decisions taken near the top of the heap.
 
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poborsky

Established member
536 60
I am afraid that we are attacking the addicts instead of the producers. Unless we find a way to stop this at source there will be no end to drug crime on our streets.

We must face the uncomfortable fact that a lot of our drug money is paid for with arms and other exports. How else are these rebel generals paying for their wars?

I find it difficult to believe that the US can do nothing to stop the flood of narcotics needed to keep it's drug addicted populations supplied. This comes from policy decisions taken near the top of the heap.
yes I have to agree sadly. Any casualties on home soil are just victims of foreign wars. I believe that there is very little political will for a solution and it is probably being encouraged by people who on the surface say the opposite.
 

Hip Hop

Junior member
35 6
I spent all day Friday in a Spanish court house giving evidence after being attacked on Thursday evening in my local bar by one of the local drug addicts who was wielding a carving knife. If not for the swift action of the police then I probably would not be here now. I can assure you that he didnt want to be asked if everything was ok or for that matter talk about anything else. Sadly he is now walking the streets again after being handed a suspended sentence, until of course he does something similar again under the influence of drugs and alcohol. If you or your family would like to spend time talking to these people and ask them why they are mugging women and pensioners to buy drugs then that is your prerogative. Personally I would lock them up and throw away the key.
Hello poborsky, glad to hear you survived the ordeal. Being a direct victim of crime is not a pleasant experience.

My point I was making is that for men/women to actually go into bars, high , and start waving carving knives around is not a natural state for any human to live by. (and that is open to nature nurture debate of course) They, (those waving carving knives) are victims themselves. I mean it cannot be healthy for any man or woman to live with those states of aggressive desires as a matter of normality. The symptom of their addictions ? can include going out, mugging, destroying other peoples property and crimes of murder and assault and other acts against their neighbours/ communities.

And that was also another point I was making, we all become victims, some more directly involved than others, yes, but this is happening in all our bars, all our communities, hence I can see it's a social disease , that affects us all in some way.

I'm not sure locking up/ignoring the users of these drugs is going to do any long term benefit for our communities. Perhaps if there were more workshops run by former users, who could act as role models for current addicts, they might stand a better chance of pulling through and kicking their addiction to these substances and thereby lowering the crime associated with users.

But the state, if people are to have faith in it, are obligated to protect the "body politic" (citizens) in return for their allegiance, so its right that your Police Officers protected you from physical harm.

Saying all the above however, I also do stand by that any man should be able to consume any natural plant, herb or substance ,in his own privacy , providing his actions do no harm to any other directly.

As an example , that would include allowing , anyone growing and using cannabis. That is a natural plant thousand of years old, and one which has lots of medicinal uses. And for any outside commercial agency to suggest that mankind cannot use it for their own private, peaceful, beneficial use is a crime against humanity.

That's another thread to itself though maybe.

Hip Hop.
 

poborsky

Established member
536 60
Hello poborsky, glad to hear you survived the ordeal. Being a direct victim of crime is not a pleasant experience.

My point I was making is that for men/women to actually go into bars, high , and start waving carving knives around is not a natural state for any human to live by. (and that is open to nature nurture debate of course) They, (those waving carving knives) are victims themselves. I mean it cannot be healthy for any man or woman to live with those states of aggressive desires as a matter of normality. The symptom of their addictions ? can include going out, mugging, destroying other peoples property and crimes of murder and assault and other acts against their neighbours/ communities.

And that was also another point I was making, we all become victims, some more directly involved than others, yes, but this is happening in all our bars, all our communities, hence I can see it's a social disease , that affects us all in some way.

I'm not sure locking up/ignoring the users of these drugs is going to do any long term benefit for our communities. Perhaps if there were more workshops run by former users, who could act as role models for current addicts, they might stand a better chance of pulling through and kicking their addiction to these substances and thereby lowering the crime associated with users.

But the state, if people are to have faith in it, are obligated to protect the "body politic" (citizens) in return for their allegiance, so its right that your Police Officers protected you from physical harm.

Saying all the above however, I also do stand by that any man should be able to consume any natural plant, herb or substance ,in his own privacy , proving his actions do no harm to any other directly.

As an example , that would include anyone growing and using cannabis. That is a natural plant thousand of years old, and one which has lots of medicinal uses. And for any outside commercial agency to suggest that mankind cannot use it for their own private, peaceful, beneficial use is a crime against humanity.

That's another thread to itself though maybe.

Hip Hop.
It is a complicated subject and as you say it would occupy at least one thread on its own. I do agree that anyone who wishes to do drugs in their own home should be able to do so as long as they keep it that way and only harm themselves. I also believe that drugs should be legalized. Get rid of the low life scum who sell the crap. A lot of these substances are mixed with other poisonous chemicals which affect these peoples brains in other ways, so get the stuff by prescription. I believe cannabis has been banned because the hemp plant has other uses which the powers that be want to suppress. It is very useful for various industrial processes as well as medicinal purposes. Glaucoma and multiple sclerosis being just a couple of medical uses.
From experience I am glad that what happened was down here in Spain and not in the UK. The Spanish police are normally rapid response and deal with trouble. When I lived in the UK the police were generally more concerned with making profit from traffic fines and if there was any trouble they would turn up after the event to clear up the mess. Again this is for another thread and thanks for your concern Hip Hop.
 

Mayfly

Established member
514 28
Criminal enterprises run the drugs and the immigration trade here in the UK, doesn't that tell you something?

The situation is ridiculous: we should be buying up the poppy crop in Afghanistan (what else can they grow?) if we want to win the battle for hearts and minds there and use it for medicinal purposes here in the UK and destroy the rest..... Tax its use just as we do cigarettes and alcohol for those that need to use it......make it clean and knowable... think William Burroughs, here?

Bash houses in West Yorkshire just been closed down... Pakistanis just sent down down for for a couple of hundred years porridge ..... and addicts have to deal with the way their new sources cut their ****.... several deaths later....

Let's wake up?

M
 

arabianights

Legendary member
6,725 1,377
Can anyone explain to me the difference between a heroin addict in (for example) Detroit commiting crime in order to gain his next fix of heroin from a dealer and a heroin addict commiting to 50 concerts to gain his next fix of a heroin substitute from a 'legitimate' Doctor?
How do you know he didn't have a legitimate medical need for it? We are not (although I'm sure we soon will be :rolleyes:) privy to all of his medical conditions...

P.S. Most legal opium is grown in Australia. Let's invade!
 

Technically Fundamental

Senior member
2,810 178
P.S. Most legal opium is grown in Australia. Let's invade!
Firstly, why do you know so much about heroin?

Secondly, you only have to look at the nonesensical and illogical way in which drugs are dealt with by government to deduce that they are obviously being used as some sort of method of control. Fghting drugs on street level or even at certain levels immediately above is a redundant strategy as long as poverty is such a widespread problem. As long as there is demand then the vacuum just gets filled with another tw@. As for robberies etc. as far as I'm aware burglary is an old school crime that doesnt really happen anymore (amongst the younger people anyway) and the restructure in sentencing for street robbery has been a major deterrent. Male skag heads are a dying breed. The women can always enjoy the proceeds of nice, easy whoredom but the men, they will all end up in jail @ £300 per day.
 

counter_violent

Legendary member
10,118 2,608
:sleep:Like anyone should give a c**p about addicts.....they do the drugs because they know there is always a safety net and someone else picking up the pieces and if your at the bottom of the pile then drugs is just another escape from reality...the reality of responsibility.....I bet our front line services jump with joy everytime the phone rings with another call to deal with another smack head off his / her face and causing untold grief every where they go and every life they touch.
 
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