How Long Does it Take to Become a Successful Trader?

[jacinto]

Exactly so., since it interests you.

PS. Si, hablo Castellano perfectamente. Continuaremos esta conversasion en privado por medio de mensaje privado este fin de semana, le prometo.

genial, gracias. puede ser en ingles, solamente hara que me tarde un poco mas en escribir, pero no debe ser problema.

 

[dbphoenix]

I agree! Nevertheless, assuming that has been sorted out, one has to remember that different individuals will go through different depths of introspection towards their psychological and emotional state prior, during and after trading, independently of profit. Call it "maintenance" of the being, and it is independent of the mentioned angst.

Consistent profitability is key, but IMHO, it is a consequence rather than a cause of emotional and psychological peace and control. For some this peace and control is not and has never been an issue, for others this is an issue in the way they live, not only for trading.

Consistent profitability is a consequence of implementing a consistently profitable trading plan, not of attaining inner peace. If one is in psychological turmoil in all aspects of his life, solving that problem in and of itself isn't going to have much effect on his trading unless he has at the same time been working on developing a consistently profitable trading plan.

From another board:

. . . if i had started trading with real money when I first looked at trading, psychology issues would have been a big thing, and in fact they were, so I quit trading and took up study. After years of studying trading, it is not about psychology, not even a little bit. If you have a good system and it is working day in and day out, what is there to get you upset?

People can't execute their systems because they don't trust them. The answer to that dilemma is to learn to trust the system by understanding it, not to force your fears and distrust down somewhere where they can't bother you.

 

[jacinto]

Consistent profitability is a consequence of implementing a consistently profitable trading plan, not of attaining inner peace. If one is in psychological turmoil in all aspects of his life, solving that problem in and of itself isn't going to have much effect on his trading unless he has at the same time been working on developing a consistently profitable trading plan.

.[/I]

I have probably have not explained myself adequately, and probably that is why you arrive to that conclusion. I do agree with your point about execution. It is key, and is not something I would dare discussing. However, that is not what I have said in posts above.

I have never mentioned the word "psychological turmoil" or any concept like that. That one goes to deeper levels of introspection than others does not mean that one is in a turmoil. It means something else. It means that some individuals go through a process of understanding that takes longer but is much more thorough.

For example, if a trader comes across a particular price action that does not understand, he/she won't trade. If the trader does not see clearly that it is a particular price action that he/she doesnt understand, and is "tricked" into a particular pattern, then takes the decision to enter a trade, and take a loss. The intelligent thing to do is to understand what went wrong because it is the only way to learn a lesson (to avoid falling into the same hole so to speak). At that point the trader will have learned a lesson. That is what I have been mentioning in previous posts. In this case it was an emotion, and I didnt know what I was dealing with. I have learned the lesson. That is very different to say that I am in "psychological turmoil".

I do thank you for taking the time to read and answer my posts.

 

[dbphoenix]

I have probably have not explained myself adequately, and probably that is why you arrive to that conclusion. I do agree with your point about execution. It is key, and is not something I would dare discussing. However, that is not what I have said in posts above.

I have never mentioned the word "psychological turmoil" or any concept like that. That one goes to deeper levels of introspection than others does not mean that one is in a turmoil. It means something else. It means that some individuals go through a process of understanding that takes longer but is much more thorough.

You may not have used the words "psychological turmoil" but you did say that "consistent profitability is key, but IMHO, it is a consequence rather than a cause of emotional and psychological peace and control". So, if psychological turmoil is inaccurate, perhaps emotional and psychological disquietude would be better.

For example, if a trader comes across a particular price action that does not understand, he/she won't trade. If the trader does not see clearly that it is a particular price action that he/she doesnt understand, and is "tricked" into a particular pattern, then takes the decision to enter a trade, and take a loss. The intelligent thing to do is to understand what went wrong because it is the only way to learn a lesson (to avoid falling into the same hole so to speak). At that point the trader will have learned a lesson. That is what I have been mentioning in previous posts. In this case it was an emotion, and I didnt know what I was dealing with. I have learned the lesson. That is very different to say that I am in "psychological turmoil".

I do thank you for taking the time to read and answer my posts.

On the other hand, if the trader has defined and tested his setup and is implementing his plan in a disciplined manner, there is no question of being "tricked". If he enters a trade anyway that is not part of his plan, then either he lacks the discipline to follow his plan, which means that he doesn't trust it, or he doesn't have one, i.e., a consistently profitable one.

One can tap into emotions and deep levels of introspection, but none of that is necessary. Either one has a tested and consistently profitable strategy or he doesn't. If he does have such a strategy and doesn't follow it, then he believes that he's smarter than his own plan. His task, therefore, is to improve the plan. No introspection is required.

 

[DepthTangent]

This is not such a problem for me as being a naturally gifted philosopher my awareness of the negative influence of the ego is well defined, and thus my appropriate response was to eliminate the ego. This decision was based purely out of esoteric pursuits as opposed to trading, however the issue of the mind regarding how our perception of "reality" is constructed is obviously highly significant to any decision making process, and thus logically it is relevant to trading too.

Have you ever noticed yourself making a fool of yourself ? Have you ever wondered why you said something when you wished you had not ? Have you ever pulled the trigger on a trade and wondered 20 minutes later what you had just done ? Clearly upon the conscious recognition of the fact that a part of your own internal makeup is influencing your speech or decisions to such an extent that you say words and execute actions that you would prefer not, must be considered as negative. Therefore, an awareness of this negative phenomena manifests itself with accurate individuals pursuing the objective of eliminating this ego with the ideal of clarity held at the pinnacle of this process.

If you want to maximise your potential as an individual ego suppression is paramount, so therefore SOCRATES is correct with these statements. Some people may be able to trade profitably without such lofty accuracy of the self, but of course you must ask yourself the question, how far do I wish to embrace the continuity of cosmic awareness, for me, this question is answered before it is asked.

 

[dbphoenix]

This is not such a problem for me as being a naturally gifted philosopher my awareness of the negative influence of the ego is well defined, and thus my appropriate response was to eliminate the ego. This decision was based purely out of esoteric pursuits as opposed to trading, however the issue of the mind regarding how our perception of "reality" is constructed is obviously highly significant to any decision making process, and thus logically it is relevant to trading too.

Have you ever noticed yourself making a fool of yourself ? Have you ever wondered why you said something when you wished you had not ? Have you ever pulled the trigger on a trade and wondered 20 minutes later what you had just done ? Clearly upon the conscious recognition of the fact that a part of your own internal makeup is influencing your speech or decisions to such an extent that you say words and execute actions that you would prefer not, must be considered as negative. Therefore, an awareness of this negative phenomena manifests itself with accurate individuals pursuing the objective of eliminating this ego with the ideal of clarity held at the pinnacle of this process.

If you want to maximise your potential as an individual ego suppression is paramount, so therefore SOCRATES is correct with these statements. Some people may be able to trade profitably without such lofty accuracy of the self, but of course you must ask yourself the question, how far do I wish to embrace the continuity of cosmic awareness, for me, this question is answered before it is asked.

All of these negative phenomena, however, manifest themselves due to not having a trading plan. Ego suppression is not paramount. Ego suppression should not even be an issue. If one has a consistently profitable trading plan, ego is irrelevant.

Of course, those who prefer to embrace the continuity of cosmic awareness rather than develop the aforementioned plan won't see it that way. But that's fine.

 

[DepthTangent]

I think I ought to inject some additional clarity regarding this topic of discussion. People who begin the learning curve of obtaining the knowledge that can be used to trade the markets profitably can be initially considered as blind. Subsequently as they learn a few tricks they gain more vision and determination to succeed, however their confidence will not be 100% stable as they are not trading profitably due to a lack of awareness, what dbphoenix often refers to as a trading plan. Until you learn enough about how the market is ordered, you will never be in a position to create a trading plan and this junction in the evolution of a trader is critical.

At this point in the traders career, they will have taken quite a few psychological beatings due to the losses they have accumulated, this will lead to heightened irrational, emotional ego based thought interceptions that manifest themselves as inaccurate analysis (losing trades). Then the trader wonders why this is happening as the market cannot be so nasty to them as after all, the market can only rise or fall, so why do I always lose is the lingering thought. At this point they ask themselves is the market against me, and this is where the ego and emotion kicks in as they begin to take the losses they have accumulated personally, logically as the ego is hurt time and time again, it raises its ugly head as a response to the point where the trader generates a completely distraught attitude, and either leaves in utter disgust OR takes the bull by the horns subsequently analysing every minute aspect of themselves as an individual with the intention of suppressing the ego, negating emotional attachments to previous experiences thus building the foundational platform to execute stable and accurate market assessments, including the building of a trading plan.

At this point a trader will go out and hunt down every piece of information they can to build the plan, but that plan can never arrive before the previous experiences have been processed, as in my understanding everybody who initially comes to the market is considered blind, and therefore is exposed to the same learning processes. You may out of sheer luck generate a plan that trades profitably before the ego starts to rear its ugly head, but if you have not suppressed your ego either on a trading or esoteric level prior to this trading plan providing you with profit, then you can be guaranteed that at some point the ego will show itself manifesting in rule breaking protocols, leading to a potentially downward spiral. The market is not only a training ground for profit, it is a training ground of existence, but of course everything is subjective and this is only my assessment based on my experiences.

I will suggest very few people who enter the market will enter with a fully suppressed ego, or a trading plan, and I'm certain the ego will intercept decisions long before the individual has accumulated the awareness to construct a profitable trading plan in over 90% of cases, and therefore must be dealt with first. So, how long does it take ? It takes as long as the individual takes to absorb the required tools for success, but those tools exist and can be obtained by anybody.

 

[SOCRATES]

Posts numbers 45 and 47....absolutely the best posts on this thread so far.

At last here we have a member able to think in the deepest sense of the word.

My Compliments To You, Depth Tangent.

 

[SOCRATES]

All of these negative phenomena, however, manifest themselves due to not having a trading plan. Ego suppression is not paramount. Ego suppression should not even be an issue. If one has a consistently profitable trading plan, ego is irrelevant.

Of course, those who prefer to embrace the continuity of cosmic awareness rather than develop the aforementioned plan won't see it that way. But that's fine.

I will have you know that spiritual development is a prime component of self awareness and of awareness in many other dimensions, but it seems that you persitently opt to disregard this.

It wopuld appear that at the level of both spiritual and intellectual awareness that you have been able to progress to so far, all that you can see...... must be a plan....that you are fixated on and mesmerised by ......and the idea of a system....and other rock bottom mechanical considerations that entrap you in your thinking and the limited way in which you are able to express what you allow yourself to think....and what is more ...to be able to percieve...are flitered.....through a glass...darkly.

There is more, much more....

This is why people who follow plans find that suddenly all the plans in the world do not make sense.

It is because though you will doubteless disagree, all of this is not the subject ot plans, or blueprints, or .....systems, and goes beyond a certain level that is not mechanical, otherwise any buffoon with a plan would succeed....using a system.

And there you have it, may it serve to please the savants and enrage the dunces.

 

[dbphoenix]

I think I ought to inject some additional clarity regarding this topic of discussion. People who begin the learning curve of obtaining the knowledge that can be used to trade the markets profitably can be initially considered as blind. Subsequently as they learn a few tricks they gain more vision and determination to succeed, however their confidence will not be 100% stable as they are not trading profitably due to a lack of awareness, what dbphoenix often refers to as a trading plan. Until you learn enough about how the market is ordered, you will never be in a position to create a trading plan and this junction in the evolution of a trader is critical.

[And so on]

First, "awareness" is not a trading plan. Those who do not understand what a trading plan is are welcome to click "Trading Journals" below.

Second, without such a plan, the newcomer has no business trading at all. Therefore, he won't be learning any "tricks", nor will he be racking up losses. Therefore, his confidence will not be at issue and the "ego" will not be a factor, much less something to suppress.

Those who approach trading with ego issues are approaching it in a very different way than those who do not. Perhaps the former are able to trade profitably and perhaps they are not. However, those who elect to learn how to trade without a trading plan are going to follow a different timeline than those who elect to learn to trade with a trading plan, and those who elected to begin trading with ego issues cannot assume that all beginning traders are likewise carrying all this baggage with them. The involvement of the ego, much less of "ego suppression", is not therefore a given.

 

[DepthTangent]

Thank you for your compliment SOCRATES, if it were not for your input on this thread I would have declined to become involved, however philosophical input, anywhere, anyplace, is such an infectious topic for me that I feel it is my duty to reply. Your posts are not too bad either you know

dbphoenix, I think our divergence maybe taking place in how we as individuals perceive and define words. I consider awareness to be fundamental to the extent that it is interchangeable with what you define as a trading plan, after all, a trading plan is constructed out of knowledge and information is it not ? Therefore knowledge and information is awareness, and can also be defined in its organised state as a trading plan when applied to the markets. Also, we all have an ego, it exists as a part of the human condition, I think it is bizarre that a successful person can define a certain set/type of people who can trade without ego issues, and infact to the extent that those that do, have already suppressed the ego! The ego exists, and if it is not contained will show itself. However if you have been fortunate enough to stumble across a successful trading plan before experiencing negative ego issues, then the only ego concern you have is over confidence. This must be shackled with discipline, remember Douglas ?

One last point, I believe that the vast majority of individuals who arrive to the market dont have any plan of any description. dbphoenix, did you have a successful trading plan as soon as you entered the market ? If not, then what process did you experience ? Events occur at the fragmented level in a linear sequence. ENTRY TO THE MARKET PLACE > LIMITED AWARENESS > LOSSES > EGO MALFUNCTIONS > REGROUPING > ORGANISATION > SUCCESS.

Or something similar along those lines, for most people.

 

[SOCRATES]

Depth Tangent, quite right, quite correct. And additionally the beak must be open under the correct circumstances before the spoonful can be given. Beak shut or spitting out, then no spoonful.

There is this persistent annoying myth going about that all that is needed is a system and a plan, as if we humans were sort of machines without feelings that can rely on programming ourselves to obey plans and systems.

A good example of this is to ask anyone what it would feel like to stand blindfolded on a plank lying on the ground....and then to imagine what it would feel like to stand on the same plank suspended 1000 feet in the air.

At that stage it is only an abstract concept.

But it is very real to whosoever closes his or her eyes and thinks about it.

Trading is the same. That is why it is so easy to generate closed loop circular arguments about the merits of plans and systems instead of confronting the realities of what it is to be human and the necessity to overcome one's humanity in preference to unemotional response to whatever is presented by the market, and to respond correctly to it without any bias of any sort.

 

[wasp]

That is why it is so easy to generate closed loop circular arguments about the merits of plans and systems instead of confronting the realities of what it is to be human and the necessity to overcome one's humanity in preference to unemotional response to whatever is presented by the market, and to respond correctly to it without any bias of any sort.

Wrong, sorry.

The only closed loop circular arguments I see on these boards are those relating to the problems of ego etc...

If you read my journal you'll see there is no closed loop only progression and eventual success. All this through devising a trading plan based on repetitive behaviour of the markets to certain factors allowing for daily consistent profits, and the consequential achievement of becoming a trader.

The key difference for me was the proof the plan works.

End of story IMO. I shall not continue in this pointless closed loop argument. If you refuse to see that it can work this way then that is your loss alone.

 

[SOCRATES]

Wrong, sorry.

The only closed loop circular arguments I see on these boards are those relating to the problems of ego etc...

If you read my journal you'll see there is no closed loop only progression and eventual success. All this through devising a trading plan based on repetitive behaviour of the markets to certain factors allowing for daily consistent profits, and the consequential achievement of becoming a trader.

The key difference for me was the proof the plan works.

End of story IMO. I shall not continue in this pointless closed loop argument. If you refuse to see that it can work this way then that is your loss alone.

I don't have time to devote to reading your journals but I am pleased at your success.

However, unbeknown to you, your ego is still lurking there, well camouflaged, waiting to engage your emotion, lying there, dormant, spring loaded, waiting to pounce on you and overwhelm you or disable you.

It will be interesting for you to experience the emotions you would feel if your plan suddenly lets you down for whatever reason unexpectedly and lands you where you don't exactly want to be or intended to be in the first place.

You would very soon exoerience an emotion, guaranteed.

 

[dbphoenix]

Thank you for your compliment SOCRATES, if it were not for your input on this thread I would have declined to become involved, however philosophical input, anywhere, anyplace, is such an infectious topic for me that I feel it is my duty to reply. Your posts are not too bad either you know

dbphoenix, I think our divergence maybe taking place in how we as individuals perceive and define words. I consider awareness to be fundamental to the extent that it is interchangeable with what you define as a trading plan, after all, a trading plan is constructed out of knowledge and information is it not ? Therefore knowledge and information is awareness, and can also be defined in its organised state as a trading plan when applied to the markets. Also, we all have an ego, it exists as a part of the human condition, I think it is bizarre that a successful person can define a certain set/type of people who can trade without ego issues, and infact to the extent that those that do, have already suppressed the ego! The ego exists, and if it is not contained will show itself. However if you have been fortunate enough to stumble across a successful trading plan before experiencing negative ego issues, then the only ego concern you have is over confidence. This must be shackled with discipline, remember Douglas ?

One last point, I believe that the vast majority of individuals who arrive to the market dont have any plan of any description. dbphoenix, did you have a successful trading plan as soon as you entered the market ? If not, then what process did you experience ? Events occur at the fragmented level in a linear sequence. ENTRY TO THE MARKET PLACE > LIMITED AWARENESS > LOSSES > EGO MALFUNCTIONS > REGROUPING > ORGANISATION > SUCCESS.

Or something similar along those lines, for most people.

Depth,

Those who have personal/psychological/emotional/spiritual/whatever issues and engage the market with those issues in tow can likely expect to experience loss. If and when they reach an an epiphany, they are likely to decide that everyone comes to the market with the same issues and thus must not only experience the same epiphany but in the same way. Thus those who post to this thread and have these issues and believe all of this will of course agree with each other. But that doesn't necessarily make it true (see Bertrand Russell).

There are, of course, others who do not post to this thread who, while acknowledging that many traders do come to the table with an assortment of personal issues, do not reject out of hand the possibility that there might be many who engage the market successfully without going through all this introspective angst. Furthermore, they even apply a healthy curiosity to finding out just how one can engage the market without all the various emotional and psychological and spiritual and whatever overlays.

What process did I experience? First, the process is not linear. But if you insist on a linear model, try ENTRY TO THE MARKET PLACE > LIMITED AWARENESS > study > experimentation > data-gathering > further experimentation, if necessary > further data-gathering, if necessary > application > success.

Of course, there are those who would walk into a professional poker game without knowing what a full house is, but that doesn't make the behavior a universal condition.

And, no, again, awareness is not a trading plan.

So, getting back to the subject of the thread, one who has loads of personal issues can expect -- if he allows those issues to interfere with his education -- to lose thousands, if not millions, of dollars while developing "self-awareness". This may take a considerable amount of time depending on how "challenged" he is.

On the other hand, those who are not wracked with these issues might learn to trade fairly quickly, or at least quicker than those challenged individuals who insist that the trader can't possibly be as successful as he is.

 

[DepthTangent]

Reality is subjective, if you or any other person can trade successfully using your/their model then that is all that is required, and farbeit for me to question these protocols. I experienced my journey and am therefore in a position to offer some additional width that some people may well be able to benefit from.

For me suppression of the ego was a very useful aspect of not only my personal development as an individual (something that by far transcends the mundane day to day cash lifestyle) but it also allowed one to anchor much more accurate and confident market analysis. When your ego is suppressed and your emotions are dissipated you then have a state of utter confidence, a level of awareness that you know will serve you well EVERY time. Also, you dont have to have latent psychological problems for the ego to pay you a visit.

Any person that chooses not to suppress their ego is either (a) Unaware of its presence or (b) Unaware of its capacity to distort your perception assuming you are aware of its presence or (c) Has a very large bank balance, dbphoenix ?

At the end of the day, you have absolutely nothing to lose by suppressing the ego, and everything to gain by the reassurance that it will not affect your accuracy at any point in the future. There is nothing to lose other than, well your ego !!

Good trading.

 

[dbphoenix]

Reality is subjective, if you or any other person can trade successfully using your/their model then that is all that is required, and farbeit for me to question these protocols. I experienced my journey and am therefore in a position to offer some additional width that some people may well be able to benefit from.

For me suppression of the ego was a very useful aspect of not only my personal development as an individual (something that by far transcends the mundane day to day cash lifestyle) but it also allowed one to anchor much more accurate and confident market analysis. When your ego is suppressed and your emotions are dissipated you then have a state of utter confidence, a level of awareness that you know will serve you well EVERY time. Also, you dont have to have latent psychological problems for the ego to pay you a visit.

Any person that chooses not to suppress their ego is either (a) Unaware of its presence or (b) Unaware of its capacity to distort your perception assuming you are aware of its presence or (c) Has a very large bank balance, dbphoenix ?

At the end of the day, you have absolutely nothing to lose by suppressing the ego, and everything to gain by the reassurance that it will not affect your accuracy at any point in the future. There is nothing to lose other than, well your ego !!

Good trading.

I have no doubt that suppression of the ego was an issue for you and a "useful aspect" of your development. It would have to be (a useful aspect if suppression was an issue).

For me, however, suppression of the ego was never necessary since ego was not an issue. That you should have difficulty believing that is not surprising, given your statement, but it is nevertheless true. And after twenty years, I'm not going to worry about "latent psychological problems" that will suddenly turn my trading sour.

Good trading to you, too.

 

[tblackw320]

Real world discussions are what I appreciate about this site!

 

[TopIQ]

It takes a year to train an sp500 rookie on the floor of the cme. They have to make at least 5 trades per day and try to make $500 per day and BREAKEVEN for the year!

 

[CYOF]

Will the 3 traders who were able to achieve success within 6 months please come forward and post some details as to how they achieved this.

I have voted "I am still not a successful trader" and I started my first training in 1999 - with Fundamentals.

It may be also worth noting the level of success that one has achieved - are we talking about full time trading with the ability to pull 1% to 2% per day out of the markets with a 50K to 100K margin account - or are we talking about several $K per year.

I will consider myself successful when I can average, each week, $10K.

This figure is based on Daytrading Nas Tech Stocks with a $100K cash account - which will allow daytrading buying power of $400K @ 4:1.

My ultimate target is an average of 5% per day - but I like to be as realistic as possible so I am sticking to my original statement of 1% to 2% per day.