How Long Does it Take to Become a Successful Trader?

[Windowsill]

Still trying. 1 year now, and keep finding that no matter how well I progress in price reading (I use no indicator, only read price), how well calling moves, or reversals, etc., I keep finding that there is only one thing separating me from "really becoming a trader" and that is myself. The emotions I attach, or the psychological negative aspects I can't overcome. No matter how much I advance in understanding them and working on the required improvement, under different circumstances they continue arising.

I guess that until one can truly separate oneself from emotions and that when one is able to understand the psychological "issues" one faces and how to overcome them prior to, during, and after trading, one can call oneself a trader.

Profitability is secondary, in my opinion. I guess my conclusion is that 90% is emotional and psychological selfcontrol, and 10% are price reading and analytical skills (that is if one doesnt use indicators or a system, and even in that case, I still think the above aplies).

Everything one needs to know is in a chart. the rest is noise or events that could not have possibly been expected.

Well if Laptop1 s calculation is right, you could still end up with about a £1000 after 5 years if you started with a penny spreadbet with finspreads!
That would solve the emotional difficulty.
Its usually overtrading without a proper " "system" atic" approach that causes the problem IMO.

 

[SOCRATES]

Well if Laptop1 s calculation is right, you could still end up with about a £1000 after 5 years if you started with a penny spreadbet with finspreads!
That would solve the emotional difficulty.
Its usually overtrading without a proper " "system" atic" approach that causes the problem IMO.

I do not agree with you.

The size of the exposure is not relevant.

What is relevant is the trader's response to the fact (to the knowledge that) an exposure actually exists.

Overtrading can carry the risk of making it worse, but not always.

This is because the emotional difficulty originates in the ego and not on the screen.

Ego is one of a cluster of hurdles that have to be overcome, I mention it because it is the first one, and the most important for most traders.

You cannot conquer anything until you succeed in conquering yourself, it is a simple and as that.

 

[dbphoenix]

Its usually overtrading without a proper " "system" atic" approach that causes the problem IMO.

I agree. If one has a consistently profitable system, there's nothing to be emotional about.

 

[SOCRATES]

I agree. If one has a consistently profitable system, there's nothing to be emotional about.

He is not referring to a system, he is referring to being systematic, which is something altogether different, and which is an approach, and not an inert entity.

 

[Windowsill]

I would be grateful if the difference between system & systematic could be elaborated upon. I am being serious. I have noted that the "approach is systematic", but at the end of the day surely its still a system, thats applied to achieve an expected outcome. Thanks

He is not referring to a system, he is referring to being systematic, which is something altogether different, and which is an approach, and not an inert entity.

 

[SOCRATES]

I would be grateful if the difference between system & systematic could be elaborated upon. I am being serious. I have noted that the "approach is systematic", but at the end of the day surely its still a system, thats applied to achieve an expected outcome. Thanks

A system cannot be applied to achieve an expected outcome.

A system is an inert entity.

For example, a box full of woodworking tools comprises part of a system.

The rest of the system might include pots of paint or varnish, brushes, turpentine, or creosote, or wood stain, plus the wood itself, as a raw material.

On their own, they do not make anything until they are used.

When they are used, and used with skill, it is called Carpentry, or Woodworking or its derivatives such as Furniture Making, Shelving or Framemaking for example.

Carpentry is a method applied using a system of tools in order to create something using wood, glue, nails and screws for example. Painting the what has been made is called finishing. Each is a separate method used to achieve the final result desired.

Separate to this.... using a handsaw to cut wood in a straight line by steady to and fro motion is a systematic activity.....systematic in this sense means repeated and replicated activity and is not relevant to something inert.

But in a dumbed down world the term "system" is misused when what is really meant is "method".

 

[jacinto]

He is not talking about a plan or a map.

He is talking about his FEELINGS and how his feelings get in the way of his trading and being able to behave rationally and how when the FEELINGS are very intense he needs time to recover.

That is what he is talking about and not maps, drawings or plans.

Maps and plans are not a solution, otherwise everyone who had a plan would succeed, or for that matter, a system, or what you nebulously describe as a system but never clarify.

See my post number 10 on this thread, above.

Socrates, spot on! I don't know if what I wrote above was clear or not. English is not my first language, so probably I didn't write properly.

No, it is not about plans, maps, etc. Yes there are rules, and when rules are broken, the issue is (i guess) what makes one break your own rules. Is it that 1) rule is incorrect and stopping oneself from reaching a target, and therefore needs to be rewritten; or 2) rule is correct but one still breaks it, which is not rational action, and has a deeper problem underneath (emotions dominating reason).

With regards to other comments, I haven't mentioned the lack or excess of profitability as an issue, but the more profound definition of the characteristics of a "real trader" which, as an opinion only, mainly defined by the ability to manage and control the psychological and emotional aspects that define "human weakness" in this "job", and that are by definition the real risk and not financial exposure.

In my experience (and relating to the post between difference system and systematic), trading with no system or indicator becomes a tough test for self control, since one is only reading price action instead of following "instructions from a system or set of indicators". Having said that, not having a system does not mean one cannot be systematic!

Thank you for your comments.

PS Entiendo que usted habla castellano, gracias por sus comentarios. He leido algunas de sus contribuciones, y me parecen interesantes. saludos.

 

[Zenda]

Convincing the wife

It is still impossible to convince the wife I'm not a gambler - after many years

 

[SOCRATES]

Socrates, spot on! I don't know if what I wrote above was clear or not. English is not my first language, so probably I didn't write properly.

No, it is not about plans, maps, etc. Yes there are rules, and when rules are broken, the issue is (i guess) what makes one break your own rules. Is it that 1) rule is incorrect and stopping oneself from reaching a target, and therefore needs to be rewritten; or 2) rule is correct but one still breaks it, which is not rational action, and has a deeper problem underneath (emotions dominating reason).

With regards to other comments, I haven't mentioned the lack or excess of profitability as an issue, but the more profound definition of the characteristics of a "real trader" which, as an opinion only, mainly defined by the ability to manage and control the psychological and emotional aspects that define "human weakness" in this "job", and that are by definition the real risk and not financial exposure.

In my experience (and relating to the post between difference system and systematic), trading with no system or indicator becomes a tough test for self control, since one is only reading price action instead of following "instructions from a system or set of indicators". Having said that, not having a system does not mean one cannot be systematic!

Thank you for your comments.

PS Entiendo que usted habla castellano, gracias por sus comentarios. He leido algunas de sus contribuciones, y me parecen interesantes. saludos.

Exactly so., since it interests you.

PS. Si, hablo Castellano perfectamente. Continuaremos esta conversasion en privado por medio de mensaje privado este fin de semana, le prometo.

 

[wasp]

Socrates, spot on! I don't know if what I wrote above was clear or not. English is not my first language, so probably I didn't write properly.

No, it is not about plans, maps, etc. Yes there are rules, and when rules are broken, the issue is (i guess) what makes one break your own rules. Is it that 1) rule is incorrect and stopping oneself from reaching a target, and therefore needs to be rewritten; or 2) rule is correct but one still breaks it, which is not rational action, and has a deeper problem underneath (emotions dominating reason).

With regards to other comments, I haven't mentioned the lack or excess of profitability as an issue, but the more profound definition of the characteristics of a "real trader" which, as an opinion only, mainly defined by the ability to manage and control the psychological and emotional aspects that define "human weakness" in this "job", and that are by definition the real risk and not financial exposure.

In my experience (and relating to the post between difference system and systematic), trading with no system or indicator becomes a tough test for self control, since one is only reading price action instead of following "instructions from a system or set of indicators". Having said that, not having a system does not mean one cannot be systematic!

Thank you for your comments.

PS Entiendo que usted habla castellano, gracias por sus comentarios. He leido algunas de sus contribuciones, y me parecen interesantes. saludos.

Hi Jacinto,

As your sig says, you have a set of rules which should make a profit.

IMO trading is a business and as such with any business, the first thing you do is devise a business plan which will make your goals. Yours being breaks from patterns and consequent targets. IMO unless you are 200% sure that your business plan works, paper trade until it does. I know many will say paper trading doesn't include emotion but that shouldn't come into it anyway. If you aren't sure its going to work, money shouldn't be put on it. If emotion takes over you don't believe the rules. If you don't believe the rules, don't trade.

At the end of the day until money is put on a trade you need to know that your setup will do X,Y or Z as many times as possible and you have a contingency plan for those that don't reach the targets and/or fail. Once you are confident with proof you just accept the outcome regardless because you know it works.

If after every trade is entered you panic it might not reach the target, paper trade or test until your sure your rules/plan/system/method/strat works. If your not confident, then don't put money on the line.

If your panicking every time you aren't trading your plan properly and you are just gambling.

For example - You run a pub, its 8pm in the evening on a Tuesday. You have 12 people in the pub. 1 family of 4, a few students and a couple of lads on the fruit machines. No-ones drinking much...

1) Do you close early because you panic you might not make enough profits to substain the outgoings or...?

2) Do you carry on till 11 regardless because you know some days are crap and then others (the weekend) will triple the income?

It would make no sense to sit at the bar panicking about it because you knew when you started running the pub, some days you will miss out on money but others will be spot on or more so...

Its all very simple really, a trade makes a profit or it doesn't. You know some will and some won't. Whether it does or not you just keep moving on to the next without thinking about it. If at the end of the month your down, the method doesn't work and you rethink and look back over it and see why not and work it till you find a way it does.

I used to panic all the time but it wasn't until I viewed it the aforementioned way that I started making consistent profit. Regardless of your methods (PA/ FA/ Indicators/ tape/ Moon/ stars /Fib's) until you have a solid plan you can rely on to be robust and reliable, how can you expect to trade emotion free and professionally?

 

[SOCRATES]

It is still impossible to convince the wife I'm not a gambler - after many years

There is a solution, and I am willing to let you have it by PM if you are interested.

 

[SOCRATES]

Hi Jacinto,

As your sig says, you have a set of rules which should make a profit.

IMO trading is a business and as such with any business, the first thing you do is devise a business plan which will make your goals. Yours being breaks from patterns and consequent targets. IMO unless you are 200% sure that your business plan works, paper trade until it does. I know many will say paper trading doesn't include emotion but that shouldn't come into it anyway. If you aren't sure its going to work, money shouldn't be put on it. If emotion takes over you don't believe the rules. If you don't believe the rules, don't trade.

At the end of the day until money is put on a trade you need to know that your setup will do X,Y or Z as many times as possible and you have a contingency plan for those that don't reach the targets and/or fail. Once you are confident with proof you just accept the outcome regardless because you know it works.

If after every trade is entered you panic it might not reach the target, paper trade or test until your sure your rules/plan/system/method/strat works. If your not confident, then don't put money on the line.

If your panicking every time you aren't trading your plan properly and you are just gambling.

For example - You run a pub, its 8pm in the evening on a Tuesday. You have 12 people in the pub. 1 family of 4, a few students and a couple of lads on the fruit machines. No-ones drinking much...

1) Do you close early because you panic you might not make enough profits to substain the outgoings or...?

2) Do you carry on till 11 regardless because you know some days are crap and then others (the weekend) will triple the income?

It would make no sense to sit at the bar panicking about it because you knew when you started running the pub, some days you will miss out on money but others will be spot on or more so...

Its all very simple really, a trade makes a profit or it doesn't. You know some will and some won't. Whether it does or not you just keep moving on to the next without thinking about it. If at the end of the month your down, the method doesn't work and you rethink and look back over it and see why not and work it till you find a way it does.

I used to panic all the time but it wasn't until I viewed it the aforementioned way that I started making consistent profit. Regardless of your methods (PA/ FA/ Indicators/ tape/ Moon/ stars /Fib's) until you have a solid plan you can rely on to be robust and reliable, how can you expect to trade emotion free and professionally?

Nope....I disagree.

Emotion is always present. It will always be present until you open the first gate to self mastery which is the abandonment of ego in trading.Then everything else follows if you are able to do that. But to acvhieve that, you have to change yourself, but only for the purpose of trading, which for many people is very difficult and for some, unfortunately, impossible. The problem is, that their own humanity (as they percieve it) prevents them from conquering this pernicious obstacle. It is pernicious because it succeeds in effectively hiding itself from the victim.

 

[wasp]

Nope....I disagree.

Emotion is always present. It will always be present until you open the first gate to self mastery which is the abandonment of ego in trading.Then everything else follows if you are able to do that. But to acvhieve that, you have to change yourself, but only for the purpose of trading, which for many people is very difficult and for some, unfortunately, impossible. The problem is, that their own humanity (as they percieve it) prevents them from conquering this pernicious obstacle. It is pernicious because it succeeds in effectively hiding itself from the victim.

Call it what you will, abandonment of ego, changing yourself etc...

So much emphasis is put on the problems of ego and self that people spend time pondering the issue instead of resolving it.

At the end of the day do you want to make money? If so, stop being stupid and letting emotion in the way.

Its very simple, you paper trade until the strategy is PROVEN to work 7,8,9 times out of 10 or what you so require, and GET ON WITH IT.

Its very easy to sit around feeling sorry for yourself and blaming your own shortcomings and the plight of mans inability to shake off the shackles of ego but if you want to make money JUST DO IT.

This is trading, not a pyschology lecture.

 

[SOCRATES]

Call it what you will, abandonment of ego, changing yourself etc...

So much emphasis is put on the problems of ego and self that people spend time pondering the issue instead of resolving it.

At the end of the day do you want to make money? If so, stop being stupid and letting emotion in the way.

Its very simple, you paper trade until the strategy is PROVEN to work 7,8,9 times out of 10 or what you so require, and GET ON WITH IT.

Its very easy to sit around feeling sorry for yourself and blaming your own shortcomings and the plight of mans inability to shake off the shackles of ego but if you want to make money JUST DO IT.

This is trading, not a pyschology lecture.

You are wrong again, sorry.

They are shackled together, they have to be unshackled first, as one of several steps, and the elimination of ego is the first step.

But you try it your way, and good luck to you.
Your last sentence in the post you have just made is ego rearing up its ugly head again.

 

[laptop1]

You are wrong again, sorry.

They are shackled together, they have to be unshackled first, as one of several steps, and the elimination of ego is the first step.

But you try it your way, and good luck to you.
Your last sentence in the post you have just made is ego rearing up its ugly head again.

How about you are worng!, why do you think you are corret in you thinking.

 

[SOCRATES]

How about you are worng!, why do you think you are corret in you thinking.

Because it is obvious....it is staring you in the face....it is screaming at you....and if you do not understand this...you ought not to be trading at all until you understand it .......and do something positive about it............ otherwise............it will do something negative to you.

I cannot make it clearer than that unless I became you, which I cannot and will not.

 

[dbphoenix]

Call it what you will, abandonment of ego, changing yourself etc...

So much emphasis is put on the problems of ego and self that people spend time pondering the issue instead of resolving it.

At the end of the day do you want to make money? If so, stop being stupid and letting emotion in the way.

Its very simple, you paper trade until the strategy is PROVEN to work 7,8,9 times out of 10 or what you so require, and GET ON WITH IT.

Its very easy to sit around feeling sorry for yourself and blaming your own shortcomings and the plight of mans inability to shake off the shackles of ego but if you want to make money JUST DO IT.

This is trading, not a pyschology lecture.

Exactly right, wasp. When traders become mired in psychological issues, the most common root cause is either the lack of a consistently profitable trading plan or, if one has such a plan, the inability to follow it. Becoming entangled in irrelevancies such as whether one is trading systematically or methodically or strategically or tactically or whatever has nothing to do with the development of a consistently profitable trading plan. Developing such a plan is a lot cheaper, faster, and easier than therapy, though insisting that one must work through his "feelings" instead is a convenient rationalization for avoiding the task of developing the trading plan.

You say that "so much emphasis is put on the problems of ego and self that people spend time pondering the issue instead of resolving it". Why? Because anyone can do the former. Few go on to do the latter (and I should add that your journal is a classic example of "resolving it"). But then that's why the number of posts that focus on theory and philosophy so far outnumber those that have to do with practical application.

How long does it take to become a trader? Depends on how long it takes to pull up one's socks, slough off the angst, and get on with it.

 

[laptop1]

Because it is obvious....it is staring you in the face....it is screaming at you....and if you do not understand this...you ought not to be trading at all until you understand it .......and do something positive about it............ otherwise............it will do something negative to you.

I cannot make it clearer than that unless I became you, which I cannot and will not.

Nothing is obvious in trading. The bottom line is can you make money. Why dont you share with us, what is supposed to be staring us in the face? or is it, you like working in riddles or maybe you are trying to look clever. I dont really know. What I do know is there is nothing new in the markets what is all ready known. The bottom line is. I know how to make money whether it be right or wrong in your eyes. I am in the black year end and that what counts in my book.

 

[SOCRATES]

Nothing is obvious in trading. The bottom line is can you make money. Why dont you share with us, what is supposed to be staring us in the face? or is it, you like working in riddles or maybe you are trying to look clever. I dont really know. What I do know is there is nothing new in the markets what is all ready known. The bottom line is. I know how to make money whether it be right or wrong in your eyes. I am in the black year end and that what counts in my book.

What you must do first is get rid of your ego.

When you get rid of your ego you get rid of having emotions.

When you do not have emotions you have a clear head.

When you have a clear head you can think properly and clearly and not before.

Incidentally, this is not all you have to do, but it is a start.

So you have to teach yourself to walk and walk properly, before you can run.

I am not taking this discussion any further. It is totally pointless if you do not understand the significance of the obvious which is staring you in the face. You yourself have to do it by working on yourself. I know it is nasty and unpleasant, but you yourself, and nobody else, have to do it.
Theere are no excuses and no exceptions for anybody.

It is your call, simple as that.

That's all.

 

[jacinto]

How long does it take to become a trader? Depends on how long it takes to pull up one's socks, slough off the angst, and get on with it.

I agree! Nevertheless, assuming that has been sorted out, one has to remember that different individuals will go through different depths of introspection towards their psychological and emotional state prior, during and after trading, independently of profit. Call it "maintenance" of the being, and it is independent of the mentioned angst.

Consistent profitability is key, but IMHO, it is a consequence rather than a cause of emotional and psychological peace and control. For some this peace and control is not and has never been an issue, for others this is an issue in the way they live, not only for trading.