Binary Options Con/Scam

[davidfielder]

Moka - you are missing the point again and I won't dwell on your inane comments. They aren't relevant and are simply testament to your arguing with yourself. I don't deny it - you can do this. Customers going to BO brokers won't. Period.
Deal with it
Go and build a web site convincing them NOT to go the easy route
Good luck

 

[davidfielder]

As for regulators. Seriously MOKA, you live in lalaland. It must be nice to think the government is really there to be your friend in time of need. To lend a hand when your bank or broker fails you and steals your cash when under management. But the sad fact is, regulators are not. I am going to bash the CFTC and NFA as long as they are built around the premise of destroying the forex market. If you don't take issue with that, I seriously concede that your are in the wrong forum. This place is full of forex traders. Most of the US traders probably ARE NO LONGER trading with a US based forex broker. If I am wrong... well, you'll probably find a way to convince yourself I am anyway... so I won't threaten to eat my hat. But I think all other people will agree at least to some extent
If you just want to pick at my argument choosing 1 sentence and avoiding the facts, well I won't bother answering you any longer

 

[Liquid validity]

I don't own that domain so I can't answer that. I don't think it's an issue as almost every website without the need for regulation (like whyoptions) is in fact behind a proxy. And I am not sidestepping anything. The fact is, whyoptions was not the topic of this discussion, you have made it a topic. A proxy domain service offered by godaddy is not the topic at hand, you again are making it the topic.

When you register a domain, it will be in the individual or company name as standard.
You have to actively make the decision to hide the registration details.
Thus far your reply on that matter is evasive again.

The topic is: are binary options brokers (unregaulted ones) a problem and are there real alternatives for new traders, inexperienced traders, and/or traders NOT able to create there own binary strategies using vanilla options.
The answer to this, in my personal opinion has consistently been "no". To use a moronic example of 2 options available at CBOE or a directional biased binary option at NADEX is NOT a good example.

So, considering the pure facts that binary options brokers are NOT going anywhere and WILL be regulated by MIFID and eventually directly by the FSA, and in 100% certainty by the Japanese as well, you can't tell me that the product is the problem. So let's not focus on the product. Binary options are here to stay.

No the product is not the problem.
The lack of clarity and transparency is the issue for me.

So let's look at the objectively and try to tell me where someone looking for such a product, and people are most certainly looking for it (if you know a thing or two about google search, you can see for yourself the search terms being looked for and binary options are a rising faster than any other financial terms in the industry, by far).

Please take a moment, before you start asking me stupid questions to answer MY QUESTION:
Where are people who want THIS product to go?
Give me an alternative. We both know there is none.

Correct, there is no alternative.
So personally I would forget it until someone I trusted did offer what I wanted.
Either that or make do with the limited range of a trusted broker.

I am not the problem
In fact, regulators aren't even the problem
The problem is the actual brokers
There is no disagreement on this topic. 20-30% of the binary brokers out there are scum. I admit this. It's why I tore down whyoptions and rebuilt it so it DOES take on a more impartial stance. In fact, I have resent mails to a number of the regulated brokers out there in an attempt to interview them for the site. So again, it's not the issue on impartiality. It's that some bad seeds are out there.
But some are really doing a good job.
I never ever said a word about goptions on this forum. Never promoted them. Never said any trader should go there. If you look at other post replies, I actually commended a few recommendations on regulated brokers that DO seem to be getting it right, albeit for a niche (PYXmarkets for example, catering to the high end/highly educated binary trader - like the product, but it's not for the casual market punter). So step away from you "stick" and answer the question, logically, rationally, and without making this personal. As I am doing my utmost to keep this a debate, and not an argument (arguments can't be won. Debates at least shed light on 2 sides of a story leaving others able to take a non-emotional side. That's all I am looking for.)

The only reason I am posting in this and other threads is to highlight
some of the dubious practices, whilst not illegal, are hardly open and honest,
which builds trust (up to a point at least...)

You do realise I wouldn't even be in this thread if it wasn't for the issues I've
already raised - which are actually nothing whatsoever to do with binary options.
I also don't think regulation is perfect, its like a seatbelt in a car, not a guarantee of anything.
Its just an extra layer of basic safety.
I think in terms of regulation more as a measure of solvency of the company,
and some degree of certainty that they may actually be there tomorrow...

Without that, and no concrete contact detail, how can you have any trust
whatsoever.

 

[davidfielder]

1. I don't want to discuss personal matters and certainly not matters I can't contribute to. Got a problem with the owner of goptions, he's openly available. Call him on his cell and bash him. He likes a good debate and he's better than me at it
2. Not sure what transparency you are referring to. Let me know, maybe I can learn something new or vice versa
3. That's your opinion, not based on fact but based on your feeling. Legitimate as it may be, lashing out at a broker or me doesn't legitimize it any further.
4. Not sure what is illegal here? and no, regulation is a far cry from a seat belt. It is merely a bad insurance policy there to cover you if and only if your car fails. Not if you run it into a wall

 

[Liquid validity]

1. I don't want to discuss personal matters and certainly not matters I can't contribute to. Got a problem with the owner of goptions, he's openly available. Call him on his cell and bash him. He likes a good debate and he's better than me at it
2. Not sure what transparency you are referring to. Let me know, maybe I can learn something new or vice versa
3. That's your opinion, not based on fact but based on your feeling. Legitimate as it may be, lashing out at a broker or me doesn't legitimize it any further.
4. Not sure what is illegal here? and no, regulation is a far cry from a seat belt. It is merely a bad insurance policy there to cover you if and only if your car fails. Not if you run it into a wall

1. Well he could come here and do so as you are unwilling to do so despite
being close to the company.

2. Transparency as in who and where the company REALLY is.

3. True

4. Thats also nothing more than an opinion on regulation.
As for illegal, read my post again:

The only reason I am posting in this and other threads is to highlight
some of the dubious practices, whilst not illegal, are hardly open and honest,
which builds trust (up to a point at least...)

I quite clearly said its not illegal.
Its is however far from open and honest about company ownership and location.
If there is nothing to hide, why hide registration details.
Even if there is nothing to hide other than lack of flash offices, it makes it look much worse.

 

[the hare]

Call him on his cell and bash him.

I wouldn't even hire a plumber to fix a dripping tap if the only means of communication was a cell phone number.

I presume he does have an office, with a telephone some place ?

 

[pboyles]

I wouldn't even hire a plumber to fix a dripping tap if the only means of communication was a cell phone number.

I presume he does have an office, with a telephone some place ?

Yeah but it's in Vladivostok.

 

[davidfielder]

Um, ok. I gues we're back on the bash the guy in the nads on a personal plane. So if this conversation goes back to a debate about regulation and the product/alternatives - I'd be happy to give my 2 cents. Cheers

 

[moka2]

The debate has alwasy been about
Product Attractivness , to which even I always agreed that it looks user friendly
Tranasparancy of pricing and clarity of conflict of interest.. to which no matter what you won't agree that it is not as clear as Exchange Traded Option built alternative
Regulations: Although not 100% efective in big jursdctions ..when we point out why your BO brokers hiding in a Thinly rgulated environment .. you have no answer.. basch teh regulator taht is all you do
Last one "to highlight some of the dubious practices, whilst not illegal, are hardly open and honest,
which builds trust (up to a point at least...)"

And about personal attacks.. you are the one who started on that path.. peopel can read and make out

Another one about killing of FX in USA... Actually what govt did perhaps cleaned up the industry .. and it is not dead FX brokers are in USA in a big way (CITI FXCm .. not that I endorse OTC 100%)... the scrupulous one perhaps ran away!
Any way
Just like you who do not like Govt, Regulators and Taxes I also wheenever appropriate try and raise the security and safety and product clarity questions in the OTC marketplace. dela with it!


Go spriuke the dogy product

 

[davidfielder]

MOKA sorry - you are badly misinformed about the US and the NFA. You really have no idea what you are talking about. Cleaning it up? I'd say at least 50% of the real traders left US soil to trade in the EU or UK. And you are obviously speaking of only what YOU YOURSELF would and that makes no difference
You fail to realize that the casual trader won't do what you do PERIOD
until you get out of that shell, you won't understand my argument

 

[moka2]

Lets conclude this "Debate "
If you can show me How exactly BO is better in following aspects I will listen

BUT YOU GOT TO BE SPECIFIC ( and if you say a word about thes point are of no importance I wil easliy conlude that you donlt want the scrutiny)
- Product defination and clarity
- Conflict of interest with brokers/ provider
- Transparancy in pricing and volume
- Client money safety
- Financial Strength of firm
- Coverage of a large insurance
M

 

[davidfielder]

Moka, I am not trying to make you convinced. You don't need this product nor do you want it. But.... No idea why I am answering but what the hell

1. The product is well documented, clear as crystal. Learn about it. Then judge - you obviously know nothing about this. I am not going to re-document how this product works. Check for yourself.
2. Not sure what conflict exists here beyond the conflict at any Market market. It's the same thing as forex. And NO exchanges are NOT an alternative so don't bring that up again. It's a boring and moot argument. The only comparison that can possibly be had here is an FSA regulated binary company (and they B Book it all as well) or NADAEX which is NOT an exchange it's just IG. So... not sure what you want to accomplish by arguing on this point. You will lose. As in terms of conflict it's identical.
3. Reuters based pricing - seems pretty transparent to me (all expiries are 100% verifiable at least on spotoption platforms)
4. Less than a regulated broker - no question. You win here. I never denied it
5. No idea what that is nor do I have, as a trade, any way to know how "strong" ANY non-public company. Didn't REFCO fall? They were the original "too big to fail" brokerage !
6. No idea what that means. But unregulated brokers are not insured if they go bust.

 

[moka2]

I am comparing this to building BO using Vanilla Options traded on True Exchanges like CME
I am not comparing it to FX or even Nadex.. SO don't keep bring that comparison .. in that comparison Only perhaps FSA regulated FX is slightly ( only slightly) better than Malta, BVI, Cyprus based BO as the counterparty risk still remains
( I suspect Nadex is jus exchange in it's name it is IG and Nasdex clients are not covered by SIPC)

1) is the product based on SPOT value or near Future contract? What I found is it varies with broker and until you dig deep you can't find out ..and the average sale people on the Customer support at these BOs do not know and some are even stupid enough to claim that they are regulated n USA! LOL
2) Although there are market makers on true exchanges there are millions of fellow traders AND The provider (that is the EXCHANGE) has no conflict of interest
With BO or FX/CFD for the punter to win the Provider needs to loose ( show me that is not the case)

4) We agree
5) Agreed even a regulated large firm can fail BUT the fact that to be a firm there are higher barriers may stop fly by night operators getting in to .. now with BO at a lower entry barrier there are more chances of dodgy businesses getting in to it.. simple logic is it not?
6) Simple with Vanial Option broker you get SIPC insurance with BO nothing with BO in FSA something!

Yes you are correct in current OTC form I don't need this product ( I like the simplicity I always agreed to that)

At the end of the day you are all for it no matter what ( and it seems don;t care that there are dodgy BO companies and many people get sucked in to it) where as all I am trying to do is highlight the Additional risks to mug punters
I hope to stop here I find you language very offensive and it is not just me but others asked similar questions and you are trying make them out as idiots
The End

 

[moka2]

oh one more thing on Transparancy
With BO made from Vanila Options on Exchanges you get to see volume, Open interest etc liquidity

AND there is no risk of broker / exchange re quote.

 

[davidfielder]

DUde
You just don't get it
Won't get it
And Don't want to get it
It's annoying
I am talking to you about normal regular people THAT DON'T WANT to go to CME
So you want me to agree that they should?
But they DO NOT WANT TO GO BUILD THERE OWN DAMN BOs
So you want me to agree that they should?
You are arguing the wrong point in the wrong argument

The question here isn't what COULD be done by knowledgeable traders
It's what IS being done by random newbs that are going to Retail Bianry Options Brokers
If you are looking for everyone to just say "wow moka, you're amazing" well, there you go, you're amazing
But you are not the target audience for binary options then. So stop arguing the point, from the point of view of a semi pro traders. It's moot
Retail Binary Traders don't know what volume is, they just don't care

 

[moka2]

No David myself and others got it long time ago and that is
"It's what IS being done by random newbs that are going to Retail Bianry Options Brokers"
And that is presisely the issue people like you want random newbs to get sucked in to this just for the simplicity ( which I agreed from the begaining)
and ignore all the additioanl risks.
WHICH AS A consumer safety MUST be considered if you are playing with $100 or $1 MIl
You and your mates just want people to ignore it so that people try their luck with small amount of money
Some broker can match it's clients they will act like a true exchange
Some brokers will be outright scams
The very fact most of them are based in these jursdictions speaks volumes for their motives..
But you will never agree to that
Dude you are leading people on a wrong path

 

[davidfielder]

No one in here is a prospective binary trader
Yet I am still here
So don't tell me what my motives are.
You are simply annoying me
I never said anything about your motives
I do think you are a brainless zealot simply following this herd of moronity in similar fashion to newbs going the unregulated.
"Ah, regulated, exchange, blah blah blah - must be ok. No one is going to screw me over there."

Mmmhmmm

Whatever

You are exactly the same
You simply use "information" as a sword but you fail to realize that this same sword is not protecting you from the motivations of the unscrupuous "regulated" broker IN jurisdiction you tout as trustworthy (refco, worldpreads, PFG............) the list is endless seriously. Stop bashing the "jurisdiction" or the "unregulated". It's BS. I am not saying it doesn't raise the risk. It does. But for the millionth time; there are good brokers and bad brokers. There are those that WILL pay winners and those the WILL NOT.
But it's the same as in the regulated world.
Bad example that you will surely bash me for again - but nothign else seems to get through to you so here goes anyway:
At a casino (in the end market making in forex, binary, etc.. are all glorified casinos and I am cool with that 100%. And ALL brokers are MMs) even if you win at a REGULATE on shore casino, doesn't necessarily mean you will get paid out. These casinos, when you hit a big jackpot, make "deals" to minimize the payout. So, does the regulation help - NO. But again, there are better brokers and worse brokers. Those that cook the books and those that don't.
Binary is the same. It's not going to be used by people who even vaguely get what an exchange is and how to utilize its products. So binary brokers are in fact exploiting a lack of knowlege by providing a comparable product that in essence costs slightly more. But the cost factor is fairly negligible and yet the ease far outpaces anything an exchange or NADEX or anyone else will ever be able to do.

 

[pboyles]

No one in here is a prospective binary trader
Yet I am still here
So don't tell me what my motives are.
You are simply annoying me
I never said anything about your motives
I do think you are a brainless zealot simply following this herd of moronity in similar fashion to newbs going the unregulated.
"Ah, regulated, exchange, blah blah blah - must be ok. No one is going to screw me over there."

Mmmhmmm

Whatever

You are exactly the same
You simply use "information" as a sword but you fail to realize that this same sword is not protecting you from the motivations of the unscrupuous "regulated" broker IN jurisdiction you tout as trustworthy (refco, worldpreads, PFG............) the list is endless seriously. Get your head out of your ass and stop bashing the "jurisdiction" or the "unregulated". It's BS. I am not saying it doesn't raise the risk. It does. But for the millionth time; there are good brokers and bad brokers. There are those that WILL pay winners and those the WILL NOT.
But it's the same as in the regulated world.
Bad example that you will surely bash me for again - but nothign else seems to get through to you so here goes anyway:
At a casino (in the end market making in forex, binary, etc.. are all glorified casinos and I am cool with that 100%. And ALL brokers are MMs) even if you win at a REGULATE on shore casino, doesn't necessarily mean you will get paid out. These casinos, when you hit a big jackpot, make "deals" to minimize the payout. So, does the regulation help - NO. But again, there are better brokers and worse brokers. Those that cook the books and those that don't.
Binary is the same. It's not going to be used by people who even vaguely get what an exchange is and how to utilize its products. So binary brokers are in fact exploiting a lack of knowlege by providing a comparable product that in essence costs slightly more. But the cost factor is fairly negligible and yet the ease far outpaces anything an exchange or NADEX or anyone else will ever be able to do.

Regulated or unregulated, they're all crooks, I think that summaries your position. I do agree.

 

[davidfielder]

I must say
You are shooting your argument in the head with that one
If they are regulated and crooks, why then promote regulation?
Why then trade with regulated forex brokers?

Oh yeah ! I remember, cause you are constructing Bull spreads on CME with Moka
Right?
Hypocritical children

 

[moka2]

BINARY OPTIONS HOW TO LOSE A FORTUNE. JUST MAKE A DEPOSIT! - YouTube