Barjon's Money Machine

[Jason101]

Hi Jon,

I have not read all of this thread so forgive me if this topic has already been covered...

I was updating my account info with ETX, after not logging on with them for years when I noticed they did "Differential Spread" I wondered how if this type of trade would work for you in your system, and if not why not? I would imagine not if is a new instrument created by a SB firm

Anyway here is something I dug up on it. --



Differential Spread Betting Markets
Differential markets include: UK 100 / Wall Street
Brent Crude Oil / US Crude Oil
A differential market is simply the difference between two markets.

For example, if the UK 100 (FTSE 100) is 5708 and the Wall Street (Dow Jones) is 12,625 then the difference is 1100. Therefore, Financial Spreads might offer a UK 100 / Wall St (June) differential market of 6915 - 6919.

This means clients can spread bet on the differential getting larger than 6919 or getting smaller than 6915.

Put another way, it's a way of trading the relative performance of the UK stock market index versus the US stock market index. If you feel the UK index will perform better than the US index you could spread bet on the differential to decrease. Likewise if you think the Wall St. index will perform best then you can spread bet on the differential to increase.

This is the same as going long of one market and short of the other, although with a differential trade:

There is only one trade and therefore easier to manage
The combined spread of two separate trades is wider. A single differential trade offers clients a way of getting tighter spreads.
Note that the markets are monthly or quarterly futures markets and therefore they have an expiry date. The above example is a 'June' market so if you haven't already closed your trade beforehand the market, and any open trades on it, will be closed and settled on 17 June.

Jason

 

[DionysusToast]

Toasty

It may fit with some trading strategies to enter there yes, others may choose not to enter on specific events. It all depends how you are playing it and what you strategy is. Some players will actively be looking for events which take the spread outside its norm then play the return to norm.

This was evidenced to me by said pro futures spread trader who actively looks for opportunities when events such as this knock the spread out of whack.

As always, the devil is in the details.

Now - I'm all for a bit of an overreaction. It was such an overreaction that got me into VOCS (it's on the board) at $12.60. It has since been up to $19, is now a little over $17 we have earnings on the 24th and I'm still holding. The overreaction was because 'analysts' thought a PR company should not have paid $160M for iContact. Mis-pricing/overreactions are lovely when you find them.

Now, the DOW comprises of only 30 stocks. In the example I gave, where Merk would be looking at a potentially fatal set of law suits, this would not be a mispricing event. This is a case where 1/30th of an index would go bankrupt and at a minimum would be removed from the DOW and another stock would take its place there.

This will be a period of volatility. If you spread trade and you trade the spread at 1 std deviation, then in this case you would go through a lot of pain as it went through 2,3,4 std deviations. As per this thread, Jon would pay no attention to Merk and get in at his usual place.

There is also the SB angle to consider. The SB may decide that all bets are off when this occurs which would leave Jon with a directional trade on the other leg.

Has Jon read his SB contract to consider this? Probably not because he's too focused on the returns when he should be investigating the risks.

I think you miss the point that most people in the index futures spread space rely on solid mathematics of the mean reverting structure. Couple that with solid risk management taking controlled losses. They are less concerned with these events that can and do happen they just rely on the statistical relationship between the price data.

You are right - to an extent. Spread trades are largely mechanical/mathematical. The piece you are missing is that these things are not left to run under all circumstances. These are not 'always on' systems. This isn't rocket science. You just have to be aware of when things work and when they don't.

Indices are not complex beasts. Still, how many members here are even aware of the impact dividends have on the index price? when indices are re-balanced etc. etc.

Fact is - there's time to stand aside and these are NOT 'always on' mathematical systems.

The irony is a lot of pro's are making money from your line of thinking here.

The real irony is that 'the pros' are a lot more risk averse than you describe. You can't control profits, you can only control risk.

Stuff like the SBs exposure to currency fluctuations by taking on an ES 'point value' bet in sterling has probably not got a single SB customer here checking their contract with the SB. For directional traders, it's not an issue because chances are the SB will close you out - no big deal. For 'spread traders', having your broker close one leg is a major problem.

 

[ChocolateDigestive]

It was such an overreaction that got me into VOCS (it's on the board) at $12.60. It has since been up to $19, is now a little over $17 we have earnings on the 24th and I'm still holding. The overreaction was because 'analysts' thought a PR company should not have paid $160M for iContact. Mis-pricing/overreactions are lovely when you find them.

single stock volatility is not relevant to a discussion of spreads.

Now, the DOW comprises of only 30 stocks. In the example I gave, where Merk would be looking at a potentially fatal set of law suits, this would not be a mispricing event. This is a case where 1/30th of an index would go bankrupt and at a minimum would be removed from the DOW and another stock would take its place there.

This will be a period of volatility. If you spread trade and you trade the spread at 1 std deviation, then in this case you would go through a lot of pain as it went through 2,3,4 std deviations.

spread trading without controlled losers is futile. if someone chose to let losers run with no backtested/forward tested risk control then they are out and out punting

There is also the SB angle to consider. The SB may decide that all bets are off when this occurs which would leave Jon with a directional trade on the other leg. Has Jon read his SB contract to consider this? Probably not because he's too focused on the returns when he should be investigating the risks.

I don't know about this, SB is not a serious option in all honesty is it. It's just for chump change.

The piece you are missing is that these things are not left to run under all circumstances. These are not 'always on' systems. This isn't rocket science. You just have to be aware of when things work and when they don't.

No idea where you came up with the idea that I think spread traders leave things running under all circumstances. All I did was provide a couple of examples where traders used events to trigger a trade. Somehow you have made the leap of faith to saying that I believe spread traders are 'always left to run'.

Fact is - there's time to stand aside and these are NOT 'always on' mathematical systems.

what you are saying is misleading though. Lets take a prop desk that trades an edge on a futures spread 300 times a day, I mean they are damn well going to let that run, they are trading a high sharpe ratio strategy many many times, sure if there is a huge event they may switch the computer off but generally speaking the are looking to get in and out 100's, 1000's of times a day

The real irony is that 'the pros' are a lot more risk averse than you describe. You can't control profits, you can only control risk.

really don't know where you got this from. I have certainly never described 'the pros' as anything other than risk averse, they are trading big edges with position sizes small compared to their capital. This is very risk averse imo

Stuff like the SBs exposure to currency fluctuations by taking on an ES 'point value' bet in sterling has probably not got a single SB customer here checking their contract with the SB.

I would image not. Because anyone trading things like this seriously full time would be trading the futures. Barjonny said it's his SB play account. I really cant see him going through the T&C's, is it really worth it. If he was that worried by it he would simply fund a futures account and up the ante

For directional traders, it's not an issue because chances are the SB will close you out - no big deal. For 'spread traders', having your broker close one leg is a major problem.

You seem to keep pushing directional trading on a thread about spread trading. Why is this? Do you have an agenda to steer people towards your products? I mean seriously is anyone who is thinking of trying spread trading going to stop and go, you know what this is too risky because my SB broker might not honor 1 of the legs. come on this is nonsense. They might try it on an SB first with chump change then if they are serious open a futures account.

 

[barjon]

No-one has said it wont work.

What has been pointed out many times is:

Jon has no plan for when to stay out of trades.
Jon has no idea what sort of events could make a trade go against him, rather he thinks they don't exist because they didn't already occur.
Jon does not understand the impact of currency in these trades or rather that he is expecting his SB to carry the currency risk.
Jon has no mechanism to get out of a trade that goes against him when he is away from the screen.
Jon thinks that if something didn't happen in 40 years, it will never happen.

In short, Jon is focused on the upside.

Apart from that, it's fine and dandy...

toastie

Sorry, been out all day.

Why don't you re-read the initial note again. What do you think I am? Dumb or something?

You might not like it, that's your prerogative, but don't have the brass neck to extend that into saying I don't know or understand what I'm talking about. I offered you something to look at. I made no claims for it beyond the fact that I trade it. You wouldn't dream of doing so - that's fine, I do.

Where does it say I don't have a plan for when to stay out of trades? I have one nicely drawn up thanks very much.

I have never said that an event that might destroy the correlation to "ruin" effect in minutes, or overnight, doesn't exist. I have said that I haven't seen one over 40 years, that I can't think of one, and that no-one has come up with one (yet).

So far as currency is concerned I'm merely having a bet with my bookie on the prices he quotes. You don't think SB companies fiddle around altering their quotes because of currency fluctuations do you? I'm not betting on relative value, I'm betting on relative numbers.

No, I have no mechanism for getting out of a trade when away from the screen. If you look at the example you will see that the maximum difference during the day didn't rise above 60+ or -. Double that then 120, oh go on treble it, and my worst case scenario is 180 offside, oh go on double that too, 360. I can stand that with ease, thanks. Contrary to what you seem to think I understand risk very well, but I'm not about to invent some for the sake of it.

So not fine and dandy for you - well that's fine. You cobble away at your last and I'll cobble at mine

jon

 

[ChocolateDigestive]

toastie

Sorry, been out all day.

Why don't you re-read the initial note again. What do you think I am? Dumb or something?

You might not like it, that's your prerogative, but don't have the brass neck to extend that into saying I don't know or understand what I'm talking about. I offered you something to look at. I made no claims for it beyond the fact that I trade it. You wouldn't dream of doing so - that's fine, I do.

Where does it say I don't have a plan for when to stay out of trades? I have one nicely drawn up thanks very much.

I have never said that an event that might destroy the correlation to "ruin" effect in minutes, or overnight, doesn't exist. I have said that I haven't seen one over 40 years, that I can't think of one, and that no-one has come up with one (yet).

So far as currency is concerned I'm merely having a bet with my bookie on the prices he quotes. You don't think SB companies fiddle around altering their quotes because of currency fluctuations do you? I'm not betting on relative value, I'm betting on relative numbers.

No, I have no mechanism for getting out of a trade when away from the screen. If you look at the example you will see that the maximum difference during the day didn't rise above 60+ or -. Double that then 120, oh go on treble it, and my worst case scenario is 180 offside, oh go on double that too, 360. I can stand that with ease, thanks. Contrary to what you seem to think I understand risk very well, but I'm not about to invent some for the sake of it.

So not fine and dandy for you - well that's fine. You cobble away at your last and I'll cobble at mine

jon

Too right Barjon. The condescending tone, layered biases and assumptions Toast has peppered you with are shocking. You offered something for free, clearly stated it was a play account and you get hung out to dry by him. What makes it worse is the constant assumptions and negative biases about what people think and what they do all aimed at pushing the agenda back to his vendored products.

 

[VielGeld]

Good thread, lots of info in here.

My spread trading has been limited to options so far, but that's something else. Futures is about betting whether the spread will narrow/widen. Options are all about time value or direction (or both), depending on whether it's a credit or debit spread.

Of the two, futures spreads seem better. No time decay, and you're betting on market-related info, not an instrument-to-market correlation. On the other hand, options have very defined risk and spreads lower this risk as well (as do profits).

I might look further into this. It seems to be a pretty interesting trading subject.

 

[DionysusToast]

toastie

Sorry, been out all day.

Why don't you re-read the initial note again. What do you think I am? Dumb or something?

You might not like it, that's your prerogative, but don't have the brass neck to extend that into saying I don't know or understand what I'm talking about. I offered you something to look at. I made no claims for it beyond the fact that I trade it. You wouldn't dream of doing so - that's fine, I do.

Jon - I do not think you are dumb. I think you are working off a subset of information. You have used 40 years of data (although somewhat different from what Lee outlined) to assure yourself that you only need to look at that specific data. That it is not possible to go outside of what you saw in that data because it didn't happen before.

Where does it say I don't have a plan for when to stay out of trades? I have one nicely drawn up thanks very much.

Actually, you have been quite clear that you use the data on the pair and no other data. It is good that the DOW/FTSE data will keep you in/out of trades but you already decided not to look outside of that and stated categorically that it is not necessary too. That the fact something didn't happen for 40 years is "good enough for you"

I have never said that an event that might destroy the correlation to "ruin" effect in minutes, or overnight, doesn't exist. I have said that I haven't seen one over 40 years, that I can't think of one, and that no-one has come up with one (yet).

Yes they have. The DOW is made up of 30 stocks. Something catastrophic (e.g. a PFG/MF Global type event) in 1/30th of the index could throw the DOW out and have very little impact on the FTSE. S&P500 would have less chance of such an issue because it is made up of more stocks and so an individual failure would have less impact.

So far as currency is concerned I'm merely having a bet with my bookie on the prices he quotes. You don't think SB companies fiddle around altering their quotes because of currency fluctuations do you? I'm not betting on relative value, I'm betting on relative numbers.

Quite correct. Your bucket shop is allowing you to bet on an instrument in sterling. Their hedge will be in dollars.

They won't be hedging your bets but they will have exposure out of the combination of all customers bets. As such, if something happens with the currency that means their hedge is off and they stand to lose a lot of money, what do you think they will do to all the S&P bets in that direction? What does your contract say?

It's just one facet of understanding your exposure. Having one leg closed by your broker, possibly when you are asleep is going to be a bit of a bind. In your position, you should at least understand the chances of this happening by studying the contract with your SB. As it is, you think you are 'just betting on numbers' and that these guys will let your bets stand, especially at the point you really need them to.

No, I have no mechanism for getting out of a trade when away from the screen. If you look at the example you will see that the maximum difference during the day didn't rise above 60+ or -. Double that then 120, oh go on treble it, and my worst case scenario is 180 offside, oh go on double that too, 360. I can stand that with ease, thanks. Contrary to what you seem to think I understand risk very well, but I'm not about to invent some for the sake of it.

There's a couple of issues there. One issue is that you have risk of one leg being closed without the other when you are away from the screen. You see only the risk as being in the correlation going out of whack.

The other issue is that historically speaking, these "6-sigma" events tend to not come in singles. The "6 sigma" event causes other "6 sigma" events. Many, many 'professional' firms have gone under in cascading events. This is in very recent history too.

Not that you have a high risk of ruin. You just underestimated the risks of leaving these trades open.

I am being devils advocate here of course but it really does look from what you posted that you have considered very few of the angles.

 

[DionysusToast]

Too right Barjon. The condescending tone, layered biases and assumptions Toast has peppered you with are shocking. You offered something for free, clearly stated it was a play account and you get hung out to dry by him. What makes it worse is the constant assumptions and negative biases about what people think and what they do all aimed at pushing the agenda back to his vendored products.

You are chasing me around this forum like a lovesick puppy.

You want me to throw you a biscuit?

 

[Joules MM1]

You are chasing me around this forum like a lovesick puppy.

You want me to throw you a biscuit?

silly poi.....coat it with choc chips.....mebe sprinkle hundreds and thousands

sit bubu

 

[Splitlink]

toastie

Sorry, been out all day.

Why don't you re-read the initial note again. What do you think I am? Dumb or something?

You might not like it, that's your prerogative, but don't have the brass neck to extend that into saying I don't know or understand what I'm talking about. I offered you something to look at. I made no claims for it beyond the fact that I trade it. You wouldn't dream of doing so - that's fine, I do.

Where does it say I don't have a plan for when to stay out of trades? I have one nicely drawn up thanks very much.

I have never said that an event that might destroy the correlation to "ruin" effect in minutes, or overnight, doesn't exist. I have said that I haven't seen one over 40 years, that I can't think of one, and that no-one has come up with one (yet).

So far as currency is concerned I'm merely having a bet with my bookie on the prices he quotes. You don't think SB companies fiddle around altering their quotes because of currency fluctuations do you? I'm not betting on relative value, I'm betting on relative numbers.

No, I have no mechanism for getting out of a trade when away from the screen. If you look at the example you will see that the maximum difference during the day didn't rise above 60+ or -. Double that then 120, oh go on treble it, and my worst case scenario is 180 offside, oh go on double that too, 360. I can stand that with ease, thanks. Contrary to what you seem to think I understand risk very well, but I'm not about to invent some for the sake of it.

So not fine and dandy for you - well that's fine. You cobble away at your last and I'll cobble at mine

jon

Tut, tut,tut! Jon getting shirty? I don't believe this!

 

[barjon]

Jon - I do not think you are dumb. I think you are working off a subset of information. You have used 40 years of data (although somewhat different from what Lee outlined) to assure yourself that you only need to look at that specific data. That it is not possible to go outside of what you saw in that data because it didn't happen before.



Actually, you have been quite clear that you use the data on the pair and no other data. It is good that the DOW/FTSE data will keep you in/out of trades but you already decided not to look outside of that and stated categorically that it is not necessary too. That the fact something didn't happen for 40 years is "good enough for you"



Yes they have. The DOW is made up of 30 stocks. Something catastrophic (e.g. a PFG/MF Global type event) in 1/30th of the index could throw the DOW out and have very little impact on the FTSE. S&P500 would have less chance of such an issue because it is made up of more stocks and so an individual failure would have less impact.



Quite correct. Your bucket shop is allowing you to bet on an instrument in sterling. Their hedge will be in dollars.

They won't be hedging your bets but they will have exposure out of the combination of all customers bets. As such, if something happens with the currency that means their hedge is off and they stand to lose a lot of money, what do you think they will do to all the S&P bets in that direction? What does your contract say?

It's just one facet of understanding your exposure. Having one leg closed by your broker, possibly when you are asleep is going to be a bit of a bind. In your position, you should at least understand the chances of this happening by studying the contract with your SB. As it is, you think you are 'just betting on numbers' and that these guys will let your bets stand, especially at the point you really need them to.



There's a couple of issues there. One issue is that you have risk of one leg being closed without the other when you are away from the screen. You see only the risk as being in the correlation going out of whack.

The other issue is that historically speaking, these "6-sigma" events tend to not come in singles. The "6 sigma" event causes other "6 sigma" events. Many, many 'professional' firms have gone under in cascading events. This is in very recent history too.

Not that you have a high risk of ruin. You just underestimated the risks of leaving these trades open.

I am being devils advocate here of course but it really does look from what you posted that you have considered very few of the angles.

toastie

Yes, I'm using the numbers, but look carefully at what I'm doing with them. It's right about a catastrophic event in one stock - to a lesser extent that's one of the reasons why the differences occur in the firsts place. When VOD got hammered at the back end of the week, for example, it's heavyweight impact on FTSE was a major influence in FTSE trading weak.

Once that specific hammering stops, catastrophic or not, balance twixt FTSE/DOW is restored - maybe painful if on the wrong side of it without having the opportunity to be out because I was, I agree. Something major like that would, of course, log up as an "extreme" and I would be trading to take advantage of the re-balancing that would likely follow.

There is one major risk and that is one market being closed for a catastrophic reason whilst the other remains open. Whilst I would expect balance to be restored once the closed market re-opens there is a very slight chance that what happens on the open market could wipe my account in the meantime. Proper capitalisation takes care of that. 'Course it's 50/50 that I'd be on the right side with the "open" leg

It is also a risk that we all face anyway. You could be long S&P with your tight stop in place when the market is suddenly closed locking you in. If it was some horrible event and SP re-opened 100 or more points down what price your "risk control" stop then?

The fact that aeroplanes occasionally fall out of the sky doesn't stop you from flying does it?

jon

 

[DionysusToast]

Jon

All I am doing here (despite my girlfriends constant claims of me being a trading vampire) is pointing out risks.

Many say we get paid to take risks trading and this is true but not all methods are equal in how much risk gets you a dollar.

I just have outlined some of your risks here as i see them. This is no different to what always happens when a 'no stoploss' strategy is outlined on the board. One that got poo-poo'd was in the pdf that Martinghoul provided on spread trading.

You certainly haven't discussed one of them head on, nor addressed Lees 2000 point spread difference. Not that you have to, of course but it'd be interested to get your opinion on the details.

Cheers

DT

 

[barjon]

Jon

All I am doing here (despite my girlfriends constant claims of me being a trading vampire) is pointing out risks.

Many say we get paid to take risks trading and this is true but not all methods are equal in how much risk gets you a dollar.

I just have outlined some of your risks here as i see them. This is no different to what always happens when a 'no stoploss' strategy is outlined on the board. One that got poo-poo'd was in the pdf that Martinghoul provided on spread trading.

You certainly haven't discussed one of them head on, nor addressed Lees 2000 point spread difference. Not that you have to, of course but it'd be interested to get your opinion on the details.

Cheers

DT

toastie

The difference is that those "no stop loss" strategies rely on hanging on to the trade on the spurious proposition that price will come back to profit (even if only 1 point ). Lee's point demonstrates that not to be true for the long period he exampled. FTSE is still some 750 points or so below where it would be by reference to what's happened to DOW since July 2010. Again, if you read what I said, I never suggested it would - I said it would "tend back towards it after extremes" which is a different thing entirely.

If you look at the thumbnail which shows the cumulative daily change for this year (not complete due to my absences) you will see that FTSE bobbed back and forth round the mean before it starting going consistently weak until it reached an extreme of -369. Since then it has tried to get back but only made it back to -70 before it went weak again.

So back to risk, contrary to no stop loss I do have one in mind which I will take when I'm about (which is most of the time). It is not a hard stop (can't be) but one which triggers me to examine the very current strength/weakness in FTSE. You may say I'm trusting to luck when I'm not about, but I would say I'm relying on my experience of how this thing moves. The overnight is not as bad as you might think because most of any "difference" change occurs between FTSE close and DOW close and I'm still about then (usually).

jon

 

[ChocolateDigestive]

You are chasing me around this forum like a lovesick puppy.
You want me to throw you a biscuit?

no thanks I would prefer you stick to vendoring your wares and I concentrate on trading. The only thing I am sick of is you constantly ta7king bo77ox and pushing the agenda back to your tape reading products.

How is that stuff going on that na5ty retail platform you are using anyway?

 

[VielGeld]

Come on now, let's not be ridiculous.

DT has posted enough stuff to know he's good at what he does, and I haven't seen him peddle his wares at all. If anything, it has been other users of his stuff that have praised it.

On the other hand, I do agree some of the stuff said has gone a bit far. I don't believe spread trading is any different in terms of risk or profit compared to directional trading, but it does come with the benefit of perhaps being a bit more clear-cut. Commission costs are certainly not to be underestimated either.

In the end, it's all about preference, having a plan, and executing when you have to. I'm quite sure Barjon knows the risks he's taking otherwise he wouldn't be doing it. These risks are inherent in directional stuff as well, so no point arguing about that.

 

[ChocolateDigestive]

it has been other users of his stuff that have praised it.

is this a fact? I dont see any traders coming forward saying they are using Toasts products profitably

I don't believe spread trading is any different in terms of risk or profit compared to directional trading,

all other things being equal spread trading highly correlated instruments is certainly less risky than trading outrights. Why do the futures exchanges ask for lower margins for spreads? The toast has already tried to say spreads are more risky (I wonder why ) I corrected him and he called me an idiot. i trade he sells products (and pretends to trade 1 lots of ES) ho hum.

 

[ChocolateDigestive]

Jon

All I am doing here (despite my girlfriends constant claims of me being a trading vampire) is pointing out risks.

Many say we get paid to take risks trading and this is true but not all methods are equal in how much risk gets you a dollar.

DT

No Toast this is not what you are doing here. You are again hinting in your above post that there are better/superior methods thus trying to generate product sales from your website, it's all about the clicks. You have been doing it over 1000's of posts over the last couple of years and it's all drivvle.

Barjon posted something genuinely interesting on T2W and you decided to clog up the thread by insulting him, picking holes in it and derailing the thread to the detriment of all the other traders who were interested to read.

well done Toast.

Will you do anything for a $349 software sale?

and who's that mug on your website Toast - looks like a cheap nasty Salesman pop up Toast.

 

[ChocolateDigestive]

In the interests of moving this thread forward with some sensible discussion I have been playing around with some custom spreads in esignal. See intraday chart FTSE-DAX futures spread. Very nice mean reverting price action 8am - 4pm London session. I have used 5 FTSE contracts to 2 DAX contracts. Just checking out reduced margins that some exchanges offer for intermarket spreads. Eurex have a margin calculation app on their website which can be used to calculate synthetic spread margins, so the margin for a valid futures spread will be between 20% - 70% of the equivalent outrights margin. It is up to the broker whether they will accept these eurex margin calculations.

 

[DionysusToast]

No Toast this is not what you are doing here. You are again hinting in your above post that there are better/superior methods thus trying to generate product sales from your website, it's all about the clicks. You have been doing it over 1000's of posts over the last couple of years and it's all drivvle.

Barjon posted something genuinely interesting on T2W and you decided to clog up the thread by insulting him, picking holes in it and derailing the thread to the detriment of all the other traders who were interested to read.

well done Toast.

Will you do anything for a $349 software sale?

and who's that mug on your website Toast - looks like a cheap nasty Salesman pop up Toast.

Incorrect.

You are the sort of person that should steer clear of forums. Look at the way you have recently insulted Scose, Kimo and myself. It is quite clear you have issues with having a mature discussion on a forum.

You take things too personally. This is a place to discuss trading. When someone raises issues with points you make, you get personal.

Your current crusade is merely a way to get personal with me. To an extent, you do 'talk a good game' on here but you lack substance in your arguments, hence you turn to 'baiting' the people who make counter-arguments.

You can say that every post I make her is there to sell software but you can't actually back it up can you?

It's just hot air. Still - whatever floats your boat, just the fact that you think you will somehow sink mine is hilarious.

Bottom line here is you can hand out insults but you really can't handle having someone smarter handing your a$$ back to you on a platter.

 

[ChocolateDigestive]

Incorrect.

You are the sort of person that should steer clear of forums. Look at the way you have recently insulted Scose, Kimo and myself. It is quite clear you have issues with having a mature discussion on a forum.

You take things too personally. This is a place to discuss trading. When someone raises issues with points you make, you get personal.

Your current crusade is merely a way to get personal with me. To an extent, you do 'talk a good game' on here but you lack substance in your arguments, hence you turn to 'baiting' the people who make counter-arguments.

You can say that every post I make her is there to sell software but you can't actually back it up can you?

It's just hot air. Still - whatever floats your boat, just the fact that you think you will somehow sink mine is hilarious.

Bottom line here is you can hand out insults but you really can't handle having someone smarter handing your a$$ back to you on a platter.

Lololol. You make your living selling $349 software and spamming forums For website hits. I make my living trading. I think anyone can see from this thread the drivvle you post/spam.