Are you proud to be a British citizen?

[chump]

Would that be a made in germany bosch (no E) ...an assembled from parts made eslewhere ,but put together in germany Bosch (still no E)..or a made elsewhere ,assembled elsewhere Bosch (definitely no E) ....would you like me to tell you the other 'elite' brands that market on one quality level ,but produce on another level entirely ....great marketing thought up by accts for adding to the bottomline when the niche market for their goods at a premium price level was saturated adn the only door left for growth of the core business was to enter at lower price levels...but hey that' s us accts for you just counting beans

 

[AsifA]

Would that be a made in germany bosch (no E) ...an assembled from parts made eslewhere ,but put together in germany Bosch (still no E)..or a made elsewhere ,assembled elsewhere Bosch (definitely no E) ....would you like me to tell you the other 'elite' brands that market on one quality level ,but produce on another level entirely ....great marketing thought up by accts for adding to the bottomline when the niche market for their goods at a premium price level was saturated adn the only door left for growth of the core business was to enter at lower price levels...but hey that' s us accts for you just counting beans

Please dont pick up on my mis-spelling. Unlike you I am at work and having to look over my shoulder. as to the rest - get an engineer to design it properly and you can get monkeys to assemble it. It would still be better than if an accountant had been anywhere near it. Fact is an engineer should specify the requirement, the putting together is the easy bit. Dont take it personally - I'm a failed accountant ( I was never smart enough to pass the exams !)

 

[the blades]

Would that be a made in germany bosch (no E) ...an assembled from parts made eslewhere ,but put together in germany Bosch (still no E)..or a made elsewhere ,assembled elsewhere Bosch (definitely no E) ....would you like me to tell you the other 'elite' brands that market on one quality level ,but produce on another level entirely ....great marketing thought up by accts for adding to the bottomline when the niche market for their goods at a premium price level was saturated adn the only door left for growth of the core business was to enter at lower price levels...but hey that' s us accts for you just counting beans

Aye, as a Black and Decker employee I can confirm that Bosch aren't "all that", but they do maintain a degree of manufacturning excellence and (I'm told) aren't run wholly by accountants.

As my job sails off to China, I'll leave comment on B&D's bean counters and short termism for a few months.

Let's hope the trading portfolio holds up

UTB

 

[AsifA]

All I know is I am the Frank Spencer of the DIY world.and when I bought my BOSCH (No E ! - pardon moi !) I had to fit the water pipe - and the design, so easy, and the clasp mechanism such foresight, such precision - the business. But an indesit and it will be leaking in 3 months - and thats from experience. Speak to any washing machine repair bod - but BOSCH !

 

[AsifA]

All I know is I am the Frank Spencer of the DIY world.and when I bought my BOSCH (No E ! - pardon moi !) I had to fit the water pipe - and the design, so easy, and the clasp mechanism such foresight, such precision - the business. But an indesit and it will be leaking in 3 months - and thats from experience. Speak to any washing machine repair bod - but BOSCH !

Sorry I keep on hitting the t instead of the y - typing is not my forte either !
Better watch out - here comes the boss - see ya later !

 

[chump]

I don't take it personally ..I started out as an acct ,but what I am now I have no idea...I was making the point with the spelling correction that the devil as always is in the detail ...in other words when is the Bosch you perceive to be a Bosch the Bosch that you actually get ! ...when you pay the bucks and get the real thing ! ....a bottom of the price range thrown together in darkest Spain will not be that even though it carries the name ...and yes I have some past experience in that market so I know of what I speak although I have completely lost track of what this has to do with being proud of being British ..ah yes, to label accts as the source of problem in British manufacturing is a mistake ,an over generalisation ..personally I would not advocate corporate leadership on the basis of vocation ,from what I have seen the best tend to have generalisable skills in managing people wherever they may be applied...so if we have suffered as a nation it may be that we just do not educate people with that focus in mind.

 

[Atilla]

The British Disease if I can put it that way is the propensity to make accountants managers. This was a fundamental error in industry that began in the 50's. The bean counters looking at short termism, the quick buck and the bottom line became a virus burrowing away silently into manufacturing sectors. What you report now is the aftermath of the consequences.. You put an engineer in charge, he understands the design and the product - as masterfully examplified by the Germans. Their managers are mostly ex - engineers. My friend worked for indesit washing machines in their product develoment and the short cuts he was obligated to follow - dont ask. I would buy a Bosche any day irrespective of the extra £100. Its built by an engineer and not a bean counter. I remember in the great shakeout of the late 70's " We are going to specialise as a nation in the service sector" cried Mrs Thatcher - eh where exactly are the first of the service sector jobs going these days - ah yes India. Like I said running on reserve and about to hit empty !!

Yep I agree with all this. I did a dissertation on the decline of the British Empire an Investment Based Analysis so I can speak with some knowledge if I may.

Germany and Japan had 4 times the number of engineers we had. I've said this before on this site, in the old days any work done with the hands were considered working class. That's why all the toffs studied Latin, the Arts and Music.

I also agree with Blades and Mr Charts, all the great inventors and creators from up North did it off their own backs using own reserves as the Banks - stuck up gits never lent a penny to your average man. They lent to building the railways in the US and to colonies in India big sums for big projects. They justify it because the returns were greater and less risky. Sounds like good old accountants had their finger in the pie from the start. Can't argue against it but this is where government and leadership have to come in imo.

Also, all the brand names like Raleigh bikes, Leyland cars and Massey Fergusson tractors went down the pan because management traded on reputation and didn't thing developing new models and engines and styles mattered. Along came the Japaneese + others and showed how it could be copied and much improved upon.

Accountants are ok but up to a limit. I don't know much about them but they shouldn't be managing companies but guiding and controlling them.

Finally, I think you can import a lot of manufacturing but you should maintain some degree of manufacturing. Ship yards, aeroplanes, railways, cars. This is all the bread and butter of life. Other countries now go to France or Japan to have them build their railway networks or buy carriages and trains from.

Why couldn't we achieve this?

I believe because of class and snobbery and looking down on labourers and engineers as a Cinderella discipline. Also, because investment on R&D and defence didn't get converted into manufacturing civilian products. Think of the money spend on Concorde and how much the bike or car industry could have benefited instead. Concorde was run at a loss but run all the same. All management and government could do was blame the unions.

Sad very sad.

 

[AsifA]

Yep I agree with all this. I did a dissertation on the decline of the British Empire an Investment Based Analysis so I can speak with some knowledge if I may.

Germany and Japan had 4 times the number of engineers we had. I've said this before on this site, in the old days any work done with the hands were considered working class. That's why all the toffs studied Latin, the Arts and Music.

I also agree with Blades and Mr Charts, all the great inventors and creators from up North did it off their own backs using own reserves as the Banks - stuck up gits never lent a penny to your average man. They lent to building the railways in the US and to colonies in India big sums for big projects. They justify it because the returns were greater and less risky. Sounds like good old accountants had their finger in the pie from the start. Can't argue against it but this is where government and leadership have to come in imo. .........


Sad very sad.

Very precisely and succintly put. That is the very essence of the issue. I will give you the perfect example. The Israeli airforce pilots selected on their ability wiped out the egyptian and syrian fighters in air to air combat each and everytime because the egyptian and syrian pilots were a case of " Daddy I want to be a fighter pilot" to which daddy replied " Ok son I'll just phone my mate General Air Field Marshall commander-in-chief (they go for these titles) in the ministry. Similarly look at the fat cats in British Industry. What are their abilities other than the old school ivy league oxbridge upper crust connections - they screw up and then move on. Look what is happening at the Burberry factory in Wales today - the bean counter has made a visit.

 

[Splitlink]

Very precisely and succintly put. That is the very essence of the issue. I will give you the perfect example. The Israeli airforce pilots selected on their ability wiped out the egyptian and syrian fighters in air to air combat each and everytime because the egyptian and syrian pilots were a case of " Daddy I want to be a fighter pilot" to which daddy replied " Ok son I'll just phone my mate General Air Field Marshall commander-in-chief (they go for these titles) in the ministry. Similarly look at the fat cats in British Industry. What are their abilities other than the old school ivy league oxbridge upper crust connections - they screw up and then move on. Look what is happening at the Burberry factory in Wales today - the bean counter has made a visit.

Don't talk to me about Burberry. The raincoat I bought from them at Burberry prices is crap. If the Chinese can't make them better, at least they'll get the prices down.

Split

 

[AsifA]

Don't talk to me about Burberry. The raincoat I bought from them at Burberry prices is crap. If the Chinese can't make them better, at least they'll get the prices down.

Split

Wishful thinking ! - Same quality - bigger cheque for the fat cat !

 

[chump]

You've got to love the irony of this ....the central problem with British manufacturing is it's MATURE ...that is it is taking place in a big fat overindulgent economy .....there isn't the CEO alive who can take this forward intact ,that is without huge sacrifice ...nothing to do with class , vocation or other spurious phenomena.....we're just very uncompetitive at manufacturing....and will be at services in the very near future.....
The current economic disparities are within the historic scale of things relatively recent ..couple of hundred years ...we're just seeing those disparities worked out ...good for some (competitive emerging nations) ..not so good for big fat mature economies like us , Western Europe , US etc .....don't sing the praise of German engineers very loudly as you will see before too much longer how fragile the current success really is...it was born out of the sacrifice of unifying Germany with all that that implies ..it doesn't overturn the huge economic disparities that are going to be worked out there and here. Basically it was political not some engineering economic miracle.
There's a saying no pain ..no gain...when you hear the British workers screaming you 'll know we are going in the right direction.

 

[Atilla]

You've got to love the irony of this ....the central problem with British manufacturing is it's MATURE ...that is it is taking place in a big fat overindulgent economy .....there isn't the CEO alive who can take this forward intact ,that is without huge sacrifice ...nothing to do with class , vocation or other spurious phenomena.....we're just very uncompetitive at manufacturing....and will be at services in the very near future.....
The current economic disparities are within the historic scale of things relatively recent ..couple of hundred years ...we're just seeing those disparities worked out ...good for some (competitive emerging nations) ..not so good for big fat mature economies like us , Western Europe , US etc .....don't sing the praise of German engineers very loudly as you will see before too much longer how fragile the current success really is...it was born out of the sacrifice of unifying Germany with all that that implies ..it doesn't overturn the huge economic disparities that are going to be worked out there and here. Basically it was political not some engineering economic miracle.
There's a saying no pain ..no gain...when you hear the British workers screaming you 'll know we are going in the right direction.

Agree with you on the maturity of industries and service industries being the next phase as Lesser Developed Countries take on the manufacturing ones Chump, but Germany became a rival to British colonies before maturity of industries even as early as mid to late 19th century. They had a heavier concentration of engineers. It was the hunger for additional resources and minerals from the colonies that set it up on a collision course with the UK.

Not much different to today as hunger energy; oil and gas will set many countries on a military war path today.

 

[Splitlink]

Wishful thinking ! - Same quality - bigger cheque for the fat cat !

No, nothing wishful. I'm not buying anything Burberry's again Although, maybe I should get some shares :idea:

Split

 

[Atilla]

No, nothing wishful. I'm not buying anything Burberry's again Although, maybe I should get some shares :idea:

Split

Chaps,

I don't know if you know but the latest fashion is to wear non-branded clothes. No labels on em...

Primark and TMax have got the market cornered...

 

[AsifA]

Chaps,

I don't know if you know but the latest fashion is to wear non-branded clothes. No labels on em...

Primark and TMax have got the market cornered...

I agree. Sums up vanity down to a tee- why do we go around advertising brands and not get paid for it. Why are we paying to advertise for them ?! How stupid are we !!!?

 

[JTrader]

Chaps,

I don't know if you know but the latest fashion is to wear non-branded clothes. No labels on em...

Primark and TMax have got the market cornered...

Primark rules!

I recently bought 5 pairs of jeans for £4 each!, 3 pairs of trouser £8 each, 2 belts for £3 each. I know they were probably all made by poor chinese girls working 16 hour shifts in sweat shops, which is wrong, but if they keep on supplying them, people will buy them. Let's face it, many people in this country cannot afford to pay much more for clothing anyway, so perhaps shops like Primark & Poundland are a necessity.

I think TKMAXX items can be quite pricey. If people go in there expectig everything to be a bargain, they'll be surprised. Though I have picked up some real bargains in the footwear and skiwear sections.

 

[AsifA]

You've got to love the irony of this ....the central problem with British manufacturing is it's MATURE ...that is it is taking place in a big fat overindulgent economy .....there isn't the CEO alive who can take this forward intact ,that is without huge sacrifice ...nothing to do with class , vocation or other spurious phenomena.....we're just very uncompetitive at manufacturing....and will be at services in the very near future.....
The current economic disparities are within the historic scale of things relatively recent ..couple of hundred years ...we're just seeing those disparities worked out ...good for some (competitive emerging nations) ..not so good for big fat mature economies like us , Western Europe , US etc .....don't sing the praise of German engineers very loudly as you will see before too much longer how fragile the current success really is...it was born out of the sacrifice of unifying Germany with all that that implies ..it doesn't overturn the huge economic disparities that are going to be worked out there and here. Basically it was political not some engineering economic miracle.
There's a saying no pain ..no gain...when you hear the British workers screaming you 'll know we are going in the right direction.

Got to question aspects of this. Take the deregulation of the stock market. Out goes the toff, in comes the Essex barrow boy - and hey presto, the economy is given a kick up the backside - only for to implode with those toffs in government started messing around with interest rates.

 

[AsifA]

Primark rules!

I recently bought 5 pairs of jeans for £4 each!, 3 pairs of trouser £8 each, 2 belts for £3 each. I know they were probably all made by poor chinese girls working 16 hour shifts in sweat shops, which is wrong, but if they keep on supplying them, people will buy them. Let's face it, many people in this country cannot afford to pay much more for clothing anyway, so perhaps shops like Primark & Poundland are a necessity.

I think TKMAXX items can be quite pricey. If people go in there expectig everything to be a bargain, they'll be surprised. Though I have picked up some real bargains in the footwear and skiwear sections.

Sounds good but I'm a bit fussy about the detailing on my threads ! (its my only vice) There was a time when a good brand which you paid top dollar for stood the test of time and countless washes, however play on manskinds vanity and suppliers thought mm lets give them branded crap and charge top dollar - and now I wander the twilight zone of trying to buy quality at a reasonable price.

 

[dick_dastardly]

Chaps,

I don't know if you know but the latest fashion is to wear non-branded clothes. No labels on em...

I was wondering when everyone would catch up with me

dd

 

[JTrader]

I personally like walking about, knowing that my entire outfit, including footwear, cost less than £50!