Appeal to all members of Trade 2 Win

glyder

Established member
753 93
Comullan,
I appreciate you are making the effort, but I think you have some rose tinted view of how it is to work in finance /the city. You area bit over enthusiastic for something you' seem to have very little real idea of as a daily grind.

First, much of it, most of it in fact, is not about trading, even in a hardcore trading firm plenty of other operational back office, legal compliance activities take place. These can all be relatively, or even very well paid, but in any of these depts you are still far far from being near a trader to learn to trade for a living.

Second, most trading that takes place is fulfilling client orders of one sort or another. The City survives off commissions and fees. 97% of profit earners in the city could not survive if they did not have client orders to scrape a profit from. There are very very few who know how to and can back their own trading ideas to make money. And fewer still are allowed to do so by their firms. Maybe getting in a hedge fund might give you an idea of how to trade but they are such varied creatures its hard to generalise. Your chances of getting near a prop desk are very slim indeed just on basic numbers.
The bottom line, as I see it is that working in finance is a people business. So take your time to get out there and talk to whoever you can ( OK, I See you are trying to!).
But see it for what it is. Its a job that people do cos it earns them good money. Few love it for very long.They just want the money. Fewer can work in the city and learn to make a good consistent buck out of the markets off their own back. Its just two different things.
Reread DT's posts too.
Look up efinancialcareers and then try to speak to some of the recritment consultants offering jobs. They like to talk and will give a you good appraisal of what is out there for you.

Sorry if any of it came over negative, I'm not saying don't go for it - on the plus side you ares still far from too old to change careers and you are good at maths!!.

Try here - they have a email address for CVs. I've no idea who they are but they trade.
http://www.tibracareers.com/

P.S.
Dont pay anyone any money for anything job or trading related.
 

comullan

Junior member
13 0
Thank you for your comments Glyder.

You have been extremely informative and helpful I will definitely keep trying. Negative is not a problem it lets me know where I am going wrong and how to improve.

Everyones comments have been extremely useful so thanks to you all for taking the time to read my post and reply.
 

Doomberg

Established member
960 75
Having directed businesses which of corse involves employing, i'd say that Cormacs approach was in fact quite professional, he's just doing what he can to get to where he wants.. he ticks all the boxes saying he will make the employer money, and that he wants to work his ass off, and that he has improved other businesses etc.. I don't see why he is getting stick. Cormac if my business sector was FSI i'd give you a chance. Something i have found to be so true in life 'if you don't ask then you don't get'

But when you do get hold of the contacts don't make it sound like an appeal, although im sure you already know this.

Good luck, based on what i have read you have the ability to succeed in any way you want.

Doomberg
 

rsh01

Experienced member
1,184 299
Having directed businesses which of corse involves employing, i'd say that Cormacs approach was in fact quite professional
Doomberg

really? professional in his approach in trying to get a front office / trading job?.......

versus all those MSc Fin Maths /CFA /Stats / c++ developers / multi lingual candidates (many trader wannabies have all of these qualis) who are currently unemployed? not saying he cannot be a good trader, just that there's a squillion more ppl out there more employable going for similar positions / opportunities, and have know doubt used better methods of marketing (e.g. offering free labour rather than asking for a reasonable salary!!! he really has done zero research, fairly unprofessional imo).

his most feasible path imo (and what so many have said here before) is to save some cash (c£5k?) and learn as much as poss through forums / books etc then:
1. trade on own SB acct and if successful take PnL to prop house with aim to take you on
or:
2. use saved money to deposit with prop house and trade under them from the start (most offer grad course you can go on for free)

also fwiw.....
perhaps stop using the "i can" phrase. there's thousands of middle office investment bank employees (globally - geography is not a limiter) who strive for years for the opportunity to work front office (FO) and who have all the "i can" skills (plus much more than you) mentioned here, and the other slightly more important one which every FO employer looks at.....exposure to the FO (no matter how right or wrong this is), yet they fail to get their dream trader job. seems a little ignorant to think one can bypass them with a disclaimer that you "can".......nws, will pass this off as naivity.

alternatively brown nose your way in which is how the other half do it.

gl to comullan in his endeavours.
 

besttraderalive

Junior member
41 1
go to school

go for your series 3 (to whatever)

learn all the different platforms
learn about all the different indicator
learn news trading
learn proper money management

create i live working statement as a trading account where you turn you investment over by 1000% in a year(investment of 10k and under) with 5% or less draw down..

so heres your task at hand follow and maybe the dollar sign be with you......

*on another note self trading on a demo acct. until you can turn an profit with 5% drawdown is your best bet cause you have to be able to handle the pressure of trading live money ... cause these people deal with 10m+ every day
 
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Doomberg

Established member
960 75
Yes you are right that there may be people who are 'more suitably employable' out there, with experience thats categorically suited to the role he's looking to fill, but that doesn't mean that the OP should simply give up and continue to work in construction, giving up is what losers do and thats why the majority of people get no where in life. Here's a little story for you.

Years ago there was a man called Edwin C Barnes, he lived in a town called Wisconsin not far from Chicago, he was in his mid 20's and he decided that he was going to be a business associate with one of the greatest inventors even to live, Thomas A Edison. Barnes had never met Edison, he had only read about him in the papers, he had no money, no background in any relevant industry and he was over 1000 miles away, regardless of all this he had a burning desire to achieve his goals, he didn't want to work for Edison, he wanted a partnership and he was 100% certain that he would get it.

Barnes saved up for train tickets to go and see Edison at his laboratory in a town called Orange, in New Jersey... he turned up before Edison pretty much dressed in rags, he explained that he will be the most valuable man he will meet and is here to tell him that he would love to go in to partnership with him but understands he has to prove himself, Barnes went on to say he will make Edison obscene amounts of money, Edison laughed because Barnes had no experience what so ever in any relevant field, all he had was the idea of what he wanted. Barnes explained that if he was given the chance then he would prove that everything he said would be followed up and within a few years he will be given the partnership that he speaks of.

Edison was impressed that Barnes was prepared to give his entire life to achieving his goals of getting that partnership, he told Barnes he will be given a chance and gave him an entry job working in the office, there was no promise of any partnership, Edison simply said "ok lets see what you can do!" Time went by and Barnes was proving himself to be an extremely valuable part of Edisons company, Edison was that impressed that he eventually gave Barnes the partnership, and Barnes became very wealthy... they remained close business associates until Edisons death. So there we have it, a pauper in rags from a poor family who decided he was going in to business with the great Thomas Edison, he had no other qualities on paper other than positivity and will power. Im a firm believer that anyone can achieve anything if they have a burning desire and put their mind to it, and if the OP is prepared to do anything in his power to get that FO job, then rather than tell him 'no don't bother you are wasting your time' you should pat him on the back and tell him to.. 'go get it' (y)
 

rsh01

Experienced member
1,184 299
giving up is what losers do and thats why the majority of people get no where in life

totally agree, just suggested changing his strategy - study smthg vocational (millions of others have - but this will prob only get you as far as trade support in fin. institution if your lucky but it's a foot in the door / accountancy qual will get you product control job); offer to work for free (millions of others do); learn to trade successfully on your own for a decent period of time (loads have done this see trader_dante et al - so why can't the OP?) - so if he is behind all of these
unfort 'drive' + his unrelated work + academic exp doesnt stand much of a chance (and spending hundreds of hours trying to get that lucky break is prob better spent reading trading books / threads and going alone), imo.

wld personally ditch the cv method completely - regardless who it is sent to, waste of time imo. though perhaps this can be confirmed with a recruitment firm (when i was going for FO jobs whilst working in MO the economy was in slightly healthier state, so things wld expect have got even tougher) - go for a meeting with a few and see what they say, then devise a strategy not based around looking for someone to do you a favour.
 

comullan

Junior member
13 0
This is not my only strategy rsh01, but I thank you for your input as you made some very valid points.

I am not so naive as to believe that there are not people out there with much more better and suited qualifications as well as experience than myself. Does this mean I should not try? No, of course not.

In terms of being unprofessional, I think this is an unfair comment to make as I have only posted my C.V. here asking if anyone knows of any trainee positions becoming available.This is only a very small part of my strategy as I thought "no harm in asking you never know" but this has been misconstrued as my prime attack on the job market. Not what it really is, a punt on the side. In any correspondence I make to companies I always make it clear that I am willing to work for free for a 2 month period to allow the employer to gauge my suitability for the position. When I mentioned a reasonable salary that was referring to my goal upon acceptance to the position after free period and probationary period.

In terms of trading on own account I do not have the cash at the minute thus I am trying to get a job in the lag time is is taking me to save as well as trying to identify a consistently profitable trading strategy through backtesting and papertrading my hypothesis. Better than sitting carrying out study alone I thought.
This is also the same reason that rules out the possibility of a grad scheme at a prop house, until I have enough cash put by to afford to live without earning for what I believe could be up to a 6 month period. This 6 month period I believe accounts for the slow burn of actually learning to trade not only successfully but generating enough profit that after the house cut, you cover living expenses.

My excessive use of the phrase "I can" was in response to a post by DT

Why not try for Front Office straight away? I am trying to get exposure to as many opportunities as possible so to immediately limit said opportunities myself by only applying for Middle/Back office roles is in my opinion defeatist.

I am no way blind to the fact that there are many others out there in positions within Financial Organisations, with exposure to Front Office, better qualifications, more relative experience and more connections than I may have. Just because I am trying regardless of this to improve my situation means I am ignorant and naive??? Come on rsh01 really?

You have provided some extremely valuable advice which I have taken into full account and the paths you have suggested I am working to be able to afford them and have the knowledge to maximise upon them.

Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts.
 

DionysusToast

Legendary member
5,963 1,501
" I always make it clear that I am willing to work for free for a 2 month period to allow the employer to gauge my suitability for the position"

This is one of a number of things that will actually prevent you from getting a job.

Applicant 1
- I need you, I want to learn, I'll try my best, I'll even work for free
Applicant 2
- I have these skills, you need these skills, you can't afford to not have me, this is how much I am willing to work for.

As an employer, I will consider applicant 2 to be a bit cocky, maybe arrogant. I'd certainly overlook this if he really does know the skills needed and has put a good (but short) case forward. I'd be telling my secretary to bring him in.

I would bin applicant 1. It's the 'needy' thing again. By offering to work for free you have basically pointed out there's no current value. The real problem though, is this type of application would be the norm. I read hundreds of these for any job but very few that stand out.

You need to be creative and you need to be aggressive.
 

comullan

Junior member
13 0
go to school

go for your series 3 (to whatever)

learn all the different platforms
learn about all the different indicator
learn news trading
learn proper money management

create i live working statement as a trading account where you turn you investment over by 1000% in a year(investment of 10k and under) with 5% or less draw down..

so heres your task at hand follow and maybe the dollar sign be with you......

*on another note self trading on a demo acct. until you can turn an profit with 5% drawdown is your best bet cause you have to be able to handle the pressure of trading live money ... cause these people deal with 10m+ every day

Thank you for your advice.

I have my level 3 CISI in securities investment and am currently studying for derivatives and retail- UK equiv to US Series 3

As for the rest I am working on my strategy as well as trying to apply for jobs trying to open as many avenues as possible.
 

comullan

Junior member
13 0
" I always make it clear that I am willing to work for free for a 2 month period to allow the employer to gauge my suitability for the position"

This is one of a number of things that will actually prevent you from getting a job.

Applicant 1
- I need you, I want to learn, I'll try my best, I'll even work for free
Applicant 2
- I have these skills, you need these skills, you can't afford to not have me, this is how much I am willing to work for.

As an employer, I will consider applicant 2 to be a bit cocky, maybe arrogant. I'd certainly overlook this if he really does know the skills needed and has put a good (but short) case forward. I'd be telling my secretary to bring him in.

I would bin applicant 1. It's the 'needy' thing again. By offering to work for free you have basically pointed out there's no current value. The real problem though, is this type of application would be the norm. I read hundreds of these for any job but very few that stand out.

You need to be creative and you need to be aggressive.

I genuinely thought this would make my application more attractive.
Definitely have to rethink the approach I use based on what you have said, as I can see how applying for a job is the same as sales. The items in the bargain bucket eventually find their way to the bin.
 

DionysusToast

Legendary member
5,963 1,501
To give you an idea - I will tell you how I did this at 18 in a different industry.

I left college at 18 with no degree. When I saw a grad job I wanted, I'd research the company and send an unsolicited email to the guy in charge there, explaining what I could do and how this would compare with a fresh grad (some of this had to do with me having my own commercial apps running).

I told them that if they had positions open, they should consider me. Of course, I never mentioned that I knew they were advertising and I never contacted the people who's name was in the advert.

The upshot was I got a call from the guy in charge at one place. He tole me he was very impressed with the way I approached the company and that yes, by coincidence they were hiring, so why not come along for an aptitude test.

At that point, the other applicants were TOAST.

Call me cocky, call me sneaky, call me arrogant. It still caught their attention and made me a 'special' applicant.
 
 
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