Alternatives to Darwinex

[Viro Major]

Other brokers invested their ressources more wisely. In comparison, let’s consider Dukascopy for an instant.
They have developed a state of the art trading platform on all OS (MT4 still available) they offer a free API (Java) outside of FIX (high condition requirements), instead of complex coding modules dedicated to experts they are maintaining a visual coding assistant for beginners, they offer a swiss multi-currency bank account (with non marked-up balance conversions) and a debit card (like IB) to directly spend the trading profits, they have their own cryptocurrency which allows to benefit in the companies’ success like revenue splits on commissions and liquidity generated by and for the ECN and more, they offer a PAMM solution with 4 different types of flexible fees to de deployed (in the event you’re compliant), they offer custom incentives for external service providers who can then set custom commissions for the acquired clients, their account control panel is the neatest I’ve seen over the years, they offer close personal support with a dedicated account manager for each client and maintain a forum, they offer 2 regulations (EU and swiss) including one that escapes ESMA rules without the need to rely on a pro status, they offer various ongoing contests with prizes also (although the criterias are wrong by pushing contenders to overtrade towards bankrupcy), they run their own media (TV) about economic / financial news.
Overall, money very well spent tactically in the development of tools and services that traders and prospects actually understand easily and care about. In the end, Dukascopy is an ecosystem with satellites taken care of.

On the other hand, Darwinex is a lonesome asteroid floating in space, outside of the Darwin product, a very common standard broker leading a honeypot profile propelled by effortless non-promotional marketing to develop their activity (surely, Dukascopy runs a shady arguable Miss Dukascopy contest, so what, this is smart advertising, since the world essentially revolves around money and sex). They are on a mission of leveraging assets but neglected about developing quite a few brokerage parts. Something that will be partly taken care of with the InteractiveBrokers’ integration but IB also comes with a higher access and lack of flexibility due to their status and sophistication. Darwinex is pursuing a niche quest so I doubt they will ever fix their shortcomings but continue to develop their own advantages, which is fine to take this spot. Out of which, I hope that the promise of the private label will raise the bar of expectations with a unique framework at what they do well (legal copytrading), what for now appears to attain a limited scope and reach.

I discovered that FundSeeder supports not only futures trading but also forex and CFD via Dukascopy or LMAX (and more). This appears as a flexible and viable alternative (without the non-sense of say, other competitors left in the field like Collective2) to expect to be backed at managing OPM (Other People’s Money) beyond the retail investors’ sphere. I will certainly give it a go on the side. But the requirement is to drive a 50k own account, something I can only consider to do at a broker that suits my needs with appropriate tools and services, not that MetaQuotes gimmick with nothing around.

 

[Gargamel]

Nice post @Viro Major,but it isn't on the topic.I propose Moderator to use his post to start a new thread,which could be very fruitful for everybody involved.Namely,Darwins in comparison with PAMMs and other copy trading.

 

[Viro Major]

@CavalierVerde will take care of it if necessary.
Indirectly it is quite a bit. I compiled this info realising that DarwinIA is rather misleading at actually bringing value and an easy way out. It makes Darwinex stand out when they principally missed the points elsewhere, outside of the Darwin aspect which I respect and absolutely vouch for, which is their main advantage they seem to rely on, opposed to a more complete offering that speaks to a broader client base.
The thing is that it appears easier to win AuMs from DarwinIA than it is to convince organic AuMs. I mean, even through late webinars, the management admitted that it now becomes our duty to be pro-active at inviting family and friends to join Darwins first and foremost, otherwise it will eventually happen but with difficulty. It’s the sad reality at this point. For me, it is to attribute because too much focus is given at making newbies dream that they can become asset managers overnight. DarwinIA plays this foolish role, as well as all the dedicated attention about turning the environment of trading towards the Quant world (about analysing, selection, development orientation), like this has ever proven merits at our level of retail trading. Maybe at the institutional level with outstanding and costly means and graduated staff in place it does, but not behind a MT4 platform and Python bridge with minimal efforts from bedroom/workplace in general (unless exceptions), sorry to say.

Darwinex Revenues Fall 19% in 2019 as ESMA Rules, No-Fee War Bite

Darwinex, a UK-based social trading broker and asset manager, has reported its financials for the fiscal year ending June 30, 2019.

www.financemagnates.com

Dukascopy Posts $2.3M Profit in 2019 and Record $9.9M in Q1 2020

Dukascopy Bank managed to achieve CHF 2.2 million ($2.27 million) in net profit compared to an operating loss of CHF 1.1 million ($1.07 million) for 2018.

www.financemagnates.com

A vision to be worthy needs to be somehow grounded and realistic also, lastly opened towards diversification in order to handle criticism with agility.

 

[FXforfun]

I'm disapointed on Darwinex, mainly on its missmanagement. I don't think my funds are in danger because they are highly regulated but they are a small broker, not growing and their business strategy is confusing. I think it's a dangerous situation, something to worry about at least. Hopefully IB will take over control.

Why focus on Dukas?. I mean, why not eToro? I don't know any of them but eToro is highly regulated as well and the are the reference on social trading. On its day I decided to go to Darwinex because eToro reputation (Googling) wasn't good

 

[Viro Major]

@Gargamel imho Forums can’t help to make people money (hence why I don’t care they closed the official one), only a few star traders which you could plug and play would, but will they join and stay forever at Darwinex if Darwinex doesn’t broaden its offering and servicing ? They’re doing it now with expanding to IB and apparently working at a private label in the background with anticipation it’s needed to survive in the game. It takes guts and globally I back up this move (although, I would have picked another FCM able to offer custom / tailored made solutions with less rigidity, on margins and commissions, more than the variety of market access)
In the past 5 years, I opened many accounts to test (more or less worth it) but never at Darwinex cause I judge the brokerage part too simplistic to build on achievements.

I’m not a believer that through education you will reverse the nature of trading, even altered by the Darwin’s enveloppe which is a helper. At best you will apply breaks on the outcome and make investors lose less or that it takes more time to happen, but not to levels that will be truly appealing, even less versus the expectations.
Tips and tweaks about handling investments and piercing the mysteries of IAs will never be a game changer by themselves (maybe if you accommodate this environement of extra risk management layer strategically to your own trading, but it’s not something the random investor will first find out or have control over). These tactics are not meant to be set in stone and also will stay out of reach of the mainstream. The only solution is that dumb money meets smart traders. No other remedies could improve the situation to valuable extents. Hence why I think Darwinex should put out more efforts on the side of the broker. The asset management side has been on right tracks since a long time and improving slowly but steadily.

 

[Viro Major]

Why focus on Dukas?. I mean, why not eToro? I don't know any of them but eToro is highly regulated as well and the are the reference on social trading. On its day I decided to go to Darwinex because eToro reputation (Googling) wasn't good

For trading alone, Dukascopy is a hell lot better in my views (including LMAX which is worse than its reputation imho, not distinguishable when you dig into details), but it doesn’t convey that accessible social dimension eToro provides, I will agree on that one...
Historically speaking, eToro has vastly been a bucket shop pulling on strings of advertisements in footbal stadiums targeting a non educated crowd. They did demonstrate to achieve some success (let’s talk about their investment fund that until now runs well and better than “DWEX trials” achieved) but as a start, their trading conditions and fees usually suck (not all of them, some are free, but others suck big time), their proprietary trading platform suck, the service is lacking. I would never get my feet there to cover the needs of my daily trading. They don’t carry MT4 so I cannot even plan to copy trade from my main brokers (futures and OTC) towards them so it’s a definite no-go for me. But to each his own.

 

[Gargamel]

@FXforfun Darwinex is schizophrenic.They provide Risk Manager and that is their strong point,so normal traders at least have a fighting chance against gamblers. This at the same time provides a promise for retail investors that long-term success is possible in copy trading world.
On the other hand they are giving incentives for excessive risk-taking and prominently marketing to investors lucky/migrated stuff.It is a mess.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

Maybe eToro hasn't the best reputation but it is the only broker that provided what investors want, what Darwinex failed to provide with DWEX .
->https://www.etoro.com/copyportfolios/gainersqtr/stats

 

[Viro Major]

Yes, I remember when Konstantin of HFD was presented as a “genius” (literally in those terms), which only shows their inability to forecast with correct anticipative power. They’re not really different than “us” the target audience, they make mistakes too with more or less caution, and learn along the way... so how can they shake this context and take some control back ? I don’t trust it can be entirely achievable. Personally, I’m conscious about their own limitations AND the ones originating from the trading environnement, so I don’t blame them on this part since they market one of the most difficult and hazardous activity in the world. It can be easy to accuse them of all the wrongdoings but I think they sincerely try not to mislead but it’s tricky and prolly many more adjustments to fine-tune how they frame their mamagement will pop up with time.

 

[Gargamel]

@Viro Major PAMMs are a jungle.Real traders don't stand a chance there.Dumb money loses everywhere and with everybody.There is no alternative to education.Well, there was an idea of experienced traders acting as intermediary(Portfolio managers) but Darwinex didn't find that idea interesting because they are smartest and they will teach others how to make money with darwins .

 

[CavaliereVerde]

AFAIK the only competitor with more AUM than Darwinex (excluding eToro) is AlpariPAMM , and they have PAMM portfolio managers...

 

[Viro Major]

I’m not pushing for PAMMs specifically (Dukascopy’s one is out of reach without a licence unless your jurisdiction doesn’t require one). You hijacked my contribution by supposing so. My point was to improve the brokerage side and drop some other aspects behind for a while, in order to convince and keep more and better traders.

You cannot educate traders experiencing success. They would be in the position to educate you, not the other way around, and that is not something they will accept to share. On forums, people are willing to give advices in a “know-it-all” manner instead of putting efforts to listen so a transfer of sense is hardly going to happen.
About managing the investments, it’s all pretty vague and meaningless. If you knew how to do that, you’d be pretty close to know how to trade, then there’s no point left to leverage money after an initial period.

By the way, Jack Schwager’s book has been released 5 days ago in Kindle format at Amazon.com and reviews strictly traders who shine without AuM and don’t give a shit about this lever pulled.

 

[Gargamel]

eToro offers nothing to traders:
-bad trading conditions,bad reputation and unstable prospects for AuM,
here it is a screenshot of how they manage 30 traders in their star product for investors:

 

[Viro Major]

@FXforfun
On the other hand they are giving incentives for excessive risk-taking and prominently marketing to investors lucky/migrated stuff.It is a mess.

Incentives, hum, by promoting Darwins through interviews ? The trader still leads the answers, the investors click...
Darwinex chose to not do direct advertising (and is shy about indirect promotion through motivated introducing agents, just word of mouth), rather absent from social media (too bad, it’s easier done to rely on strangers that appear indpendent although they are not, than self-selling a product since then the conflict of interest is evident), which to me is a mistake but they must have their reasons. Still, at some point, they must get out of the woods one way or another (and the right traders will benefit from it, when finally, donno). Maybe it’s not the right way but better than a total absence of publicity? They cannot promote Darwins which fail or stagnate in the past as attraction. What do you suggest ?

 

[Gargamel]

Incentives, hum, by promoting Darwins through interviews ? The trader still leads the answers...
Darwinex chose to not do direct advertising (and is shy about indirect promotion through motivated introducing agents, just word of mouth), rather absent from social media (too bad, it’s easier done to rely on strangers that appear indpendent although they are not, than self-selling a product since then the conflict of interest is evident), which to me is a mistake but they must have their reasons. Still, at some point, they must get out of the wood one way or another. Maybe it’s not the right way but better than a total absence of publicity. They cannot promote Darwins which fail or stagnate in the past as attraction. What do you suggest ?
[/QUOTE]
Incentives are for traders to push pedal to the metal.

 

[Viro Major]

Incentives are for traders to push pedal to the metal.

Care to elaborate with specifics ? I’m hearing medals through competition (DarwinIA) but it must not be what you intend

 

[Viro Major]

Since my isolated point was turned against my will into a dedicated topic about competitors.

AFAIK the only competitor with more AUM than Darwinex (excluding eToro) is AlpariPAMM , and they have PAMM portfolio managers...

Is Darwinex’s conception of things efficient at gathering AuM ? (until now)

Strategies by AUM

collective2.com

Completely different model, hardly comparable, but with AuMs allocated on even shittier fresh strategies. Excuses ?
What is the edge of Collective2 ? For one, they don’t enforce a narrow trading environnement but team up with many brokerage houses which leaves choice and freedom to the applicatants, both on the trader and investor sides...

There is another german company specialising in stocks which obtains a lot higher AuM levels and federates professional traders under its wing. I forgot the name sorry so can’t reference it

 

[Viro Major]

@Viro Major PAMMs are a jungle.Real traders don't stand a chance there.Dumb money loses everywhere and with everybody.There is no alternative to education.Well, there was an idea of experienced traders acting as intermediary(Portfolio managers) but Darwinex didn't find that idea interesting because they are smartest and they will teach others how to make money with darwins .

The jungle is everywhere, among CTAs, PAMMs, social trading and more traditional investments. At least with PAMMs, managers will show some basic requirements like licencing, which should demonstrate a commitment over ethics.
There are CTA programs were at least to stay enrolled you must maintain a maximum drawdown or other criterias. If you fail to, you’re excluded.
Does Konstantin care any longer about his investors ? According to his recent behaviour, it seems he gave up at being serious about recovery, since the nature of his trading doesn’t even fit any longer to be replicated. Just trying to earn some money quickly on earnings made. I’d be curious to check his variations of capital... but he must have other accounts as well.

 

[Viro Major]

Another competitor about mechanical systems only (but that can be fooled)

iSystems

isystems.com

Explore | AMP Futures

ampfutures.isystems.com

It has the advantage again to be available at many futures/options brokers, not just one. That permits to choose which technology you want for the piloting and conditions for the deployment. A kind of refinement.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

@Gargamel
eToro is good for investors not for traders.
There are 700k public profiles so the probability is close to zero.