All vendors are crooks!!

What reward does it offer you? I only ask because I find it baffling that a successful trader would want or need to sell software for example.

I can think of a number of reasons. For example I imagine you have a mortgage and regular bills to pay each month, which would set you back a few grand or so + living expenses? So if your trading account is your only source of income, you'd have to take that out each month whether you are making a profit or not. So that's £24,000+ a year out of your trading account, which say you've got a £100,000 account, means you need to make a 24% return a year just to break even on that account size and that's not even counting trading costs each month. Think about it, successful traders at banks for example get a salary and then they get a bonus depending on their performance or the firms performance. However an individual trader doesn't get a salary and is 100% dependent on their performance so is at a disadvantage straight away, especially if they have to drawdown income from their trading account on a regular basis. So having a separate regular income to pay for everyday life seems very sensible to me. Toast for example is selling a Ninjatrader add on. Would you consider Ninjatrader crooks for selling you their trading platform, I doubt it. There are a lot of crooks out there, but everyone needs to apply a bit of common sense.
 
"I do not want to pre-judge or speculate, but if the reasons for being a vendor are financial, I would be very wary indeed."

What other reasons are there for being a vendor? Of course its for financial reasons fundamentally.

What vendors do you know that do it for free?
 
I hope the vendors themselves will be along to give their own reasons, but in the interests of debate:

I believe that both claim to have been successful traders for some time, so the issue that you raise should really have been resolved. It would also make more sense to focus on your trading and increasing size rather than spending what is presumably a lot of time on teaching. Teaching would seem to be a major distraction in return for what is, compared to the rewards from your own trading, a very small return.

I would be very wary if this explanation was offered. What hope does the student have if the teacher is unable to support himself through trading?

It also really makes very little sense when one considers for example the mini S&P, which Toast claims to trade. The size that one can do in this market is phenomenal - 100 contracts ($5,000 a point, or $1250 per tick) is nothing. Even if you are a scalper, it is perfectly possible to do it at this size. So someone who is successful should over the course of a few years be able to increase his size to the point where there is no financial incentive to sell software for a few hundred bucks.

I do not want to pre-judge or speculate, but if the reasons for being a vendor are financial, I would be very wary indeed.

The comparison with Ninjatrader is I believe an entirely false one.

This is an argument that comes up frequently when it comes to "trainers", vendors and the like. The reason I believe people apply it to trading is because most have wholly unrealistic expectations of what trading for income is actually like. the holy grail of "consistent profitability" is not some exhalted state you reach after so many hours trading. It doesn't actually exist at all. All you can say as a trader is "so far". Sure you can do clips of 100 in the spoos, but it is totally false to assume that once you are making money, the riches are sure to flow. Someone who thinks this way probably has more to learn than they appreciate.

ultimately people want to pooh-pooh trainers/vendors because they contrast the daydreams of endless wealth that people want to believe are attainable once you've "cracked it". Sure, there are some purely evil snake oil salesmen out there, selling nazi boxes and 100% profitable forex systems, they deserve all the sh!t they get. But, on the other hand, if there is someone who has reached the plateau of their trading, or say has just had a baby and could use a bit more stability in their income,or just someone who thinks they have a fair and honest service to provide that people will pay for, why not?! And if I could assimilate what I already know into an eBook or something that didn't require any maintenance, why shouldn't I wang it up on a websire and cash the cheques?

Forget any idea of trading being some noble art and only zen masters can teach young grashoppers. it's about MONEY.
 
Probably not. :LOL:

I just thought it would be interesting as an experiment to see what reasons are given. Let's assume that the vendors in question are successful traders - why teach or sell software? The financial argument does not seem to stack up, although I'm willing to listen to it if either propose it. However, as I said above, if the main reason is financial, that raises a lot of questions.

I want to be clear though, this isn't intended to be a witch-hunt. For the purposes of the debate, let's say I assume that both are successful traders and have been for some time.

Forgive me for my "ignorance" but I don't understand why the financial argument doesn't stack up.

Since we are talking hypothetically here lets assume a few things (and I'll use Dion as an example)

Let's assume he's been profitable for four years. In his first year he started with a small account as he had only just learn the ropes and he made $50,000. Second year he did very well, always upping his size and made $80,000 profit. Third year he made even more ; $130,000. Last year he made, lets say $150,000. The account would be growing steadily ; the performance would show clearly he is extremely profitable and making very good money by most peoples standards. That would be irrefutable.

Now lets say that he can develop some very useful software for traders. He charges $300 and it hits the big time and is bought in bulk by firms for their traders and locals all across the world. Lets say in his first year he shifts 1000. So he's made $300,000 (or double his latest and best year) for taking absolutely no risk and making some software he believes in and which he thinks can help people.

Assuming all the above elements are true, there's a term for this in business (and in trading) it's called a no brainer.

Naturally, the same theory could easily be applied to a trading room. If a trader takes 3 - 5 trades a week and spends the rest of the time sitting there watching the markets, why on earth would he not make a risk free return for filling empty hours? It's hardly difficult to talk on a mic and show people what you are doing.

Part of the reason people always ask this question is because they presume all profitable traders have the key to making millions which really only goes to prove one thing ; they clearly have no idea of how the market works.

I used to know an outstanding trader. His up days averaged around £1,500 and he probably had a down day, averaging around £500 once every two weeks. He was about 2 years into the game, extremely consistent and made extremely good money. He worked long hours and very hard too. He had some liquidity issues that meant that while he could continue to make that money he had temporarily reached a glass ceiling of sorts and his skill, whilst transferable to a larger market like the spooz was also going to take some time to implement and adjust too.

One day he said to me out of the blue : "I'm tempted to set up a website - it would be hard scalping live infront of people because of the pressure and I don't know if I could talk and concentrate at the same time but maybe I can record my day and talk over the top of it after illustrating what I did".

My first reaction was "probably not worth the hassle mate - you're killing it as it is". He just looked at me like I was the biggest f*cking moron to ever walk the earth and said : Get 200 people to join a website paying £150 a month and thats £360k a year for...er...recording some videos? You don't think thats worth it?

As I said, that was straight from the mouth of a highly profitable and excellent trader.

But it's hardly surprising is it? There's another term for it. It's called business. The question of why do vendors do it is so interesting coming from "traders" because as a trader, it's all about return (and let's not forget rate of it too, right?)

It actually baffles me why people ask it all the time!

If I turned this on its head and said to you "you're a web designer for a company and earn £100k a year. Would you take on 2 extra hours work per day to freelance outside your company and get well over a 100% increase on your salary, are you telling me you would honestly say no?"

As I said, this all presumes that the material shown is good, that the trader is profitable etc etc. But since you already presumed that, this is my answer.
 
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This is an argument that comes up frequently when it comes to "trainers", vendors and the like. The reason I believe people apply it to trading is because most have wholly unrealistic expectations of what trading for income is actually like. the holy grail of "consistent profitability" is not some exhalted state you reach after so many hours trading. It doesn't actually exist at all. All you can say as a trader is "so far". Sure you can do clips of 100 in the spoos, but it is totally false to assume that once you are making money, the riches are sure to flow. Someone who thinks this way probably has more to learn than they appreciate.

ultimately people want to pooh-pooh trainers/vendors because they contrast the daydreams of endless wealth that people want to believe are attainable once you've "cracked it". Sure, there are some purely evil snake oil salesmen out there, selling nazi boxes and 100% profitable forex systems, they deserve all the sh!t they get. But, on the other hand, if there is someone who has reached the plateau of their trading, or say has just had a baby and could use a bit more stability in their income,or just someone who thinks they have a fair and honest service to provide that people will pay for, why not?! And if I could assimilate what I already know into an eBook or something that didn't require any maintenance, why shouldn't I wang it up on a websire and cash the cheques?

Forget any idea of trading being some noble art and only zen masters can teach young grashoppers. it's about MONEY.

Well, I agree that it is about money but it is not only the vendor who has a wife and kids to keep. The other side has the same problems and most vendors do not tell them that what they teach is unteachable. There is nothing new in trading under the sun but, every year, a new book comes out, or a new system. Everything is on this and several other sites for absolutely nothing. I repeat, though, that a would be trader will only find some good ideas with which experiment but, whether he pays for the ideas or gets them for free, they will not matter a jot if he lacks the skill to implement them.

But, anyway, I, and many others, have mentioned this so many times that my conclusion is that students have to find this out for themselves. It is part of the learning curve.
 
TD, you are absolutely correct in saying "why shouldn't he?" It's the other side who must ask themselves the question "is he worth it?"
 
There are such a lot of wannabee traders and also Phd entrants into this activity that there should be huge leaps forward. It's just a shame that the big money boys will keep it a closely guarded secret as the potential rewards are astronomical. Understandable though.
 
I take the point that there's easy money to be made but this vendor gig isnt really scalable is it ?

I also think there's a distinction to be be drawn between selling materials originally created for your own benefit, and materials specifically produced to meet the needs or demands of punters.

I assume Mr Toasts software was originally written for his own use, before he turned to the dark side ?

There's also a massive difference in the effort involved between whacking up a digital product for download such as software or DVD, and emptying the ill gotten gains from your paypall account periodically , and actively participating day after day in a live chat room.
 
I've got a novel idea. Rather than spouting horsesh*t all day about how its all nonsense simply because you can't make it work for you...how about someone actually trade it? I've clearly illustrated it works. Now perhaps someone can follow the rules outlined in the thread over a decent sample of trades and PROVE it doesn't make money. If you can prove that, I'll happily step up.

I'm sure everyone will say "I wouldn't waste my time" No, it's far more time worthy to engage in pointless lulz. Haha!

Where is the post with the methodology in it?
 
This Aussie Rob clown had 40 staff and was apparently in the process of selling out for $23 million when he was caught. If he'd had a bit more luck he'd have been rich by most standards.

I suspect he's a bit of an outlier and probably towards the top end of whats achievable, although I do know people who made significant money from these kind of things.

I'm very firmly with Taleb on this, you have to compare the distribution in incomes from vendors, with the distribution of incomes from say fund managers or traders. For every dodgy fly by night operator who managed to skim off 20M in the vendor group, there's an equivelent Paul Tudor Jones in the second group.
 
All Vendors are most certainly not crooks, how very dare you! They're simply wannabee traders who've done their bollox and are looking to recoup their loses from the vicious learning curve they have encountered, fortunately they've learnt enough to baffle the newbs and relieve them of a 100 sheets or so a month to pass on what they know.(y)
 
All Vendors are most certainly not crooks, how very dare you! They're simply wannabee traders who've done their bollox and are looking to recoup their loses from the vicious learning curve they have encountered, fortunately they've learnt enough to baffle the newbs and relieve them of a 100 sheets or so a month to pass on what they know.(y)

what're you selling.

I'm seriously considering phoenixing on FF and becoming a vendor. I already have a clientèle and strategy in mind that would separate me from the rest of you mofos.
 
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Oh BTW, Futex are playing hardball and won't give me any information on Tom's performance or reasons for leaving.

It gets more interesting.
 
He was hot sh*t and decided to move on. The consensus among his adversaries is that he was just regular sh*t and was told to move on.
 
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