All vendors are crooks!!

[barjon]

Given the popular view contained in the title I thought I would draw your attention to a post by the hare in another thread which is one of the best posts I have seen on the topic for a long time. Here it is http://www.trade2win.com/boards/fir...academy-groupon-deal-today-3.html#post1776684

Now I know the hare is likely to say that I've got an ulterior T2W motive for drawing it to your attention - but I'll take that risk . It really is good.

jon

 

[bbmac]

It is a great post and some sage advice contained therein. The Hare makes a good point ; although knowledge is transferable, experienbce is not and indeed knowing the context to employ the knowledge is not either.

The simple truth is that a trader has the best chance of consistent ongoing success when they tailor a trading edge to their own personality and this can take upwards of 5 years screen time. Most newbie punters/traders/get rich quick merchants won't/can't make this commitment.

G/L

Given the popular view contained in the title I thought I would draw your attention to a post by the hare in another thread which is one of the best posts I have seen on the topic for a long time. Here it is http://www.trade2win.com/boards/fir...academy-groupon-deal-today-3.html#post1776684

Now I know the hare is likely to say that I've got an ulterior T2W motive for drawing it to your attention - but I'll take that risk . It really is good.

jon

 

[DionysusToast]

You perhaps are throwing the net a bid wide there Barjon.

Are NinjaTrader crooks? They are vendors, they provide a platform from which you can trade... What about Tradestation? Trading Technologies?

Or are you referring to a particular genre of vendor here?

 

[KCTiger]

Yep, there are a lot of crooks around for sure, however there are the occasional honest mentors. Try Julie, she may at times be a little blunt but you will not find anyone more honest

price action trading - - Price Action Trading Equation

 

[pboyles]

It is a great post and some sage advice contained therein. The Hare makes a good point ; although knowledge is transferable, experienbce is not and indeed knowing the context to employ the knowledge is not either.

The simple truth is that a trader has the best chance of consistent ongoing success when they tailor a trading edge to their own personality and this can take upwards of 5 years screen time. Most newbie punters/traders/get rich quick merchants won't/can't make this commitment.

G/L

Yes but many of the idiots selling courses have neither the knowledge or the experience in the first place. They're just marketing the latest get rich quick rubbish, many of the same people were running property seminars (including Kreil i think) a couple of years ago, or timeshare schemes in the 90s.

 

[barjon]

You perhaps are throwing the net a bid wide there Barjon.

Are NinjaTrader crooks? They are vendors, they provide a platform from which you can trade... What about Tradestation? Trading Technologies?

Or are you referring to a particular genre of vendor here?

yeah, guess so, DT. It's the genre that relates to training/methods etc I had in mind I suppose.

 

[PollyM]

Yep, there are a lot of crooks around for sure, however there are the occasional honest mentors. Try Julie, she may at times be a little blunt but you will not find anyone more honest

price action trading - - Price Action Trading Equation

I experience this in my main work as a surveyor, and it probably applies pretty much across the board in all sectors. Endless seminars seem to be available at hundreds of pounds a pop, and this is from one of the main professional bodies. Yet you could spend a fraction of that on a good book which would give you much more knowledge and inspiration.

Each year their seminar catalogue is getting bigger and bigger. It seems to me now that they are becoming too commercial for their own good, and the tail's now wagging the dog. This is a double-whammy, not only are they a professional body meant to represent the members, but they are now caught up in the commercial side of things without much of a get-out clause. Yet, they will justify the courses by putting their stamp on it, and saying that it is an option for CPD. But if you ask for transcripts of these seminars they are non-existent, even if you offered to pay a contribution.

You go to a seminar to be inspired into learning about what is being taught, yet thinking back to my school days there were only a handful of teachers who were able to do this. I guess the situation with some (not all) starting out in trading is that they think there is a 'secret' to trading, and the seminar will give them a complete answer, and so they hand over the money in the hope of a quick solution. In a sense there is a 'secret', but it is like saying that an answer to a question is a secret until you know it, and this takes time.

If anyone new to trading is reading this thread, I would just like to emphasise that each and everyone of you have an answer to the question of trading. You will have to work at it to find it, but it is there, and the method that will suit you will be different to the next trader. That is the beauty of things, there is enough to go around, you just have to find it. Start with the established texts and personalities, practice with low stakes, keep plugging away without exposing yourself to too much risk, and eventually you will begin to sort out the wheat from the chaff. You will reach milestones where you can see that you 'know' more than you did when you started. Keep repeating this process until you find a happy medium to suit your lifestyle.

Trading is a great pursuit. It will teach you much about yourself and how your mind can work. And if you stick at it you will come to respect the markets in a way you never thought possible, just as a ship's crew respects the sea.

 

[Eric Geddes]

I guess the situation with some (not all) starting out in trading is that they think there is a 'secret' to trading, and the seminar will give them the answer, and so they hand over the money in the hope of a quick solution.

It's called greed/laziness. Very, very few people are successful in their chosen field without a lot of hard work. Popular culture denies this and the unscrupulous vendors capitalise on it.

 

[PollyM]

It's called greed. Very, very few people are successful in their chosen field without a lot of hard work. Popular culture denies this and the unscrupulous vendors capitalise on it.

And greed comes from fear, and fear comes from not trusting in yourself.

A good rule of thumb is to trust your own instincts. Everyone's different and its your own intuitions which will guide you best, even if it means making the odd 'mistake'. Think of your own intuitions, feelings and emotions, as your personal indicators, just like in trading.

 

[Eric Geddes]

The great shame about Vendors/trainers/coaches/mentors is that there are some reputable ones out there who deliver a worthwhile service. Regrettably, they can become tarred with the "all vendors are rogues brush". It certainly is a problem for beginners but like all things in life due diligence applies.

 

[DionysusToast]

yeah, guess so, DT. It's the genre that relates to training/methods etc I had in mind I suppose.

I'm in two minds about it.

On the one hand, it seems odd to do it if you can make money trading. On the other hand, I learnt a lot off a few people that teach trading.

Before that though:

I first wasted money on a few bits 'n bobs of software, along the 'indicator'/EA lines.
Then I moved on to wasting money on systems - DayTrade2Win, system ebooks on dodgy sites (before I found that they could all be gotten for free, jolly roger style)
I then 'progressed' to wasting money on trainers, one on one stuff.

Total cost on completely useless stuff was well over $10k and to be honest, I don't know how much it was in all. I can tell you that the money wasted on useless trainers was $9k. The other stuff probably comes to well over a grand.

Still, I didn't totally give up on trainers, I just raised the bar somewhat. I found a couple of people that were good. One being Mr Charts & the other being Joel Parker. Neither of these two can guarantee your success but they aren't charlatans.

I also spent a month in a room with John Grady - the No BS DayTrading guy. That's an experience I'll repeat again in the future as he does them often. There's a few of us thet 'met' on one of his webinars and we chat on Skype through the day. It's not calling trades but it is exchanging ideas, having a general chat and whining about the action. Sort of a virtual prop room without so much swearing.

I don't think all trainers are crooks but the majority are. The problem of course is that when you are new, anyone with a bit of lingo sounds like they know what they are talking about.

I did need training to become profitable. I would take training again in the future too, I do not consider myself 'past' training. I also think being in touch with other traders is a great help too, everyone sees & knows different things and so it helps in your ongoing development.

Looking back, I am still extremely pissed off at handing $10k+ to complete charlatans. Still, I was lucky in that this was not a huge amount of money for me. For some guys, it's all they have. This is why I always rail on these guys on the forums.

 

[DionysusToast]

I experience this in my main work as a surveyor, and it probably applies pretty much across the board in all sectors. Endless seminars seem to be available at hundreds of pounds a pop, and this is from one of the main professional bodies. Yet you could spend a fraction of that on a good book which would give you much more knowledge and inspiration.

I think all industries are like that.

I remember being involved in the introduction of CMM in Thailand. It's a software development methodology with various levels of 'capability' and you can get certifications if your staff get trained and you implement certain processes.

It is, without doubt, a COMPLETE waste of time. The whole thing is merely a vehicle for selling consultancy and training.

I have a friend whose still a CMM assessor in Thailand. She's never managed a project in here entire life but she assesses and trains people that do. It's just a scam.

It's a mad world.

 

[PollyM]

The great shame about Vendors/trainers/coaches/mentors is that there are some reputable ones out there who deliver a worthwhile service. Regrettably, they can become tarred with the "all vendors are rogues brush". It certainly is a problem for beginners but like all things in life due diligence applies.

I agree. It is the motivation behind their teaching which matters.

It was my A-level economics lecturer at college who really began to spark my interest in the markets (some 20+ years ago now), and I used to wonder why he was standing there lecturing when he could be using his mind making money in the markets? Now I know that it was because of the love he had for teaching and the subject of economics, and money didn't really come into the equation for him. Having said that, he may have been doing both, but didn't really let on!

Either way, he was happy, and an inspiration to me in many respects.

 

[Eric Geddes]

I agree. It is the motivation behind their teaching which matters.

It was my A-level economics lecturer at college who really began to spark my interest in the markets (some 20+ years ago now), and I used to wonder why he was standing there lecturing when he could be using his mind making money in the markets? Now I know that it was because of the love he had for teaching and the subject of economics, and money didn't really come into the equation for him. Having said that, he may have been doing both, but didn't really let on!

Either way, he was happy, and an inspiration to me in many respects.

Strikes me as the sort of guy that had perhaps found his Holy Grail! It would seem that many people who get involved with trading are overwhelmed by the potential to amass riches and this clouds their view of what is really important. While it's nice to make loads of dosh (and I enjoy spending it as much as the next person) there comes a point when you don't actually need it - you can only eat 3 meals a day etc etc.... Once you become profitable at trading the satisfaction can come from trading more skilfully ... making money with minimum risk, getting the good entries and exits and keeping drawdown at bay. I don't suppose any of the world's successful entrepreneurs now do it just for the money - doesn't Warren B drive an old car? - & I'm sure he's not short of a bob or two.

Perhaps some reputable trainers do it for that reason - if you've never been involved in training it can be difficult to appreciate the satisfaction gained from helping someone else to success. Money is just numbers.

 

[barjon]

..............I'm in two minds about it.

On the one hand, it seems odd to do it if you can make money trading. On the other hand, I learnt a lot off a few people that teach trading.............

toastie

For those who peddle the sure fire, instant success, rags to riches type things it's more than odd and that of itself should warn people off.

For the more genuine, I suppose there are many reasons why they may not want to trade and prefer to make their money training those who do. Some do both, of course, but that seems pretty hazardous since both require a 100% focus to do it successfully (trading does for me anyway). Ugh, that reminds me of the numerous trades I've cocked up because of T2W diversion

The history you relate was interesting. For me, I've never undergone any formal training but I learned a lot from successful traders to start with and still do. And also from a couple of guys who couldn't trade for toffee, but who were damn good at knowing what to do even though they couldn't bring themselves to do it when they tried.

jon

 

[Pat494]

Perhaps someone should start a rogues gallery website where people can check out vendors etc. ?
Based in a country where the lawyers can't squash one !

I see wikileaks Julian Assange is about to have a slot on Russia's RT tv

That should stir the b*stards up

 

[DionysusToast]

Yep, there are a lot of crooks around for sure, however there are the occasional honest mentors. Try Julie, she may at times be a little blunt but you will not find anyone more honest

price action trading - - Price Action Trading Equation

I had a look and found this on her page. I hope she doesn't mind me repeating it here.

It took me longer than I care to admit until I fully recognized and took on board that it is humans/traders that move markets NOT SOME UNKNOWN FORCE. The majority view of humans/traders is what makes the markets move either UP or DOWN. Ergo, if the majority see the market going higher they will BUY and push prices higher………..if the majority think price should be lower the majority will SELL and push the market down AND IF THERE IS NO MAJORITY VIEW then a tight range may develop

Great explanation.

Does she actually teach though? Doesn't seem to be any mention on her site.

 

[PollyM]

As an aside, I wonder how 'cool' your decision making needs to become before you become a superconductor. Where there are no 'losses', and you seem to be able to create energy or money out of thin air without even trying! There then would be no need for rogue vendors, and you'd have so much energy or money that you'd want to give it away! But then, who would you give it away to?

 

[Hotch]

I'm in two minds about it.

On the one hand, it seems odd to do it if you can make money trading. On the other hand, I learnt a lot off a few people that teach trading.

Before that though:

I first wasted money on a few bits 'n bobs of software, along the 'indicator'/EA lines.
Then I moved on to wasting money on systems - DayTrade2Win, system ebooks on dodgy sites (before I found that they could all be gotten for free, jolly roger style)
I then 'progressed' to wasting money on trainers, one on one stuff.

Total cost on completely useless stuff was well over $10k and to be honest, I don't know how much it was in all. I can tell you that the money wasted on useless trainers was $9k. The other stuff probably comes to well over a grand.

Still, I didn't totally give up on trainers, I just raised the bar somewhat. I found a couple of people that were good. One being Mr Charts & the other being Joel Parker. Neither of these two can guarantee your success but they aren't charlatans.

I also spent a month in a room with John Grady - the No BS DayTrading guy. That's an experience I'll repeat again in the future as he does them often. There's a few of us thet 'met' on one of his webinars and we chat on Skype through the day. It's not calling trades but it is exchanging ideas, having a general chat and whining about the action. Sort of a virtual prop room without so much swearing.

I don't think all trainers are crooks but the majority are. The problem of course is that when you are new, anyone with a bit of lingo sounds like they know what they are talking about.

I did need training to become profitable. I would take training again in the future too, I do not consider myself 'past' training. I also think being in touch with other traders is a great help too, everyone sees & knows different things and so it helps in your ongoing development.

Looking back, I am still extremely pissed off at handing $10k+ to complete charlatans. Still, I was lucky in that this was not a huge amount of money for me. For some guys, it's all they have. This is why I always rail on these guys on the forums.

**** me! Am I the only person who hasn't spent money on this crap?

 

[barjon]

I had a look and found this on her page. I hope she doesn't mind me repeating it here.



Great explanation.

Does she actually teach though? Doesn't seem to be any mention on her site.

well it would be if it were true!

If the minority who are selling have more firepower than the majority who want to buy then prices will fall. Apart from that you know what happens when everyone is bullish