About To Give Up

[DionysusToast]

Don't agree with this at all, discretionary trading has ZERO to do with luck and everything to do with understanding what is what, and what is not.

Yup - for some reason people equate discretionary trading with just switching on your PC and making random punts.

It's just about getting a read on the market and trading it.

 

[Shakone]

The opening poster should quit.

 

[MoonRocket]

..... a trader shouldn't be somebody who needs to seek support from other people (strangers on a internet forum/family and friends) in order to persevere when the going gets tough.

I can't entirely agree. In my case when I got confused or had a gut wrenching loss,
I would turn to books. Can't tell you how many times I read Liars Poker,
Market Wizards or Reminiscences of a Stock Operator.
If I had people to turn to, I would have.

I just think successful traders are very determined and strong people, who would have succeeded due to factors within themselves regardless of whether they had a support network around them.

Agree totaly.
After every loss or blow out, you must shake yer fist and say
"Just give me another go and I'll show you"
I have an old friend who was an amateur boxer in his young day. He said he went well till he got knocked out and after that he gave it away. As he would say, the top boxers could come back after being knocked out. Most guys can't.
A perfect analogy for trading I think.

 

[Masquerade]

Agree totaly.
After every loss or blow out, you must shake yer fist and say
"Just give me another go and I'll show you"
I have an old friend who was an amateur boxer in his young day. He said he went well till he got knocked out and after that he gave it away. As he would say, the top boxers could come back after being knocked out. Most guys can't.
A perfect analogy for trading I think.

What's the difference between a gambling addict and a trader who can be successful but hasn't made money?

 

[MoonRocket]

What's the difference between a gambling addict and a trader who can be successful but hasn't made money?

A good question and one I pondered a lot.
But I believe there is a huge difference. For one I've never bought a lottery ticket,
never played the pokies, never had a bet on a horse, never bought a raffle ticket,
played poker once for matchsticks and that's about it.
A addict is compulsive.
IMO a trader is not an addict....
If he can walk away from the screen winning or losing.
Take a week or a month off without a yearning to get to the computer.
Doesn't rob the family budget to continue his trading.
Doesn't suffer excessive mood swings eg. euphoria when winning, depression when losing.
Probably others, but I'm certain every individual trader would know within himself.
Although I do believe there have been borderline gambling addicts who with some control have done very well for extended periods in the market.
I think Martin Schwartz in his book, 'Pit Bull: Lessons from Wall Street's Champion Day Trader' admits he was quite compulsive.

 

[the hare]

What's the difference between a gambling addict and a trader who can be successful but hasn't made money?

Although its a bit of a grey area, I think most rational people could probably identify when a punter has a gambling addiction, but to simplify things, either gambling or trading is having a negative impact on life in general, or it isnt.

Not making money as a trader isnt really a major problem. Oscillating around a break even position for a while seams to be something many experience. Its a fact of life that many traders in the real world at least have flat spots in their returns, and its not uncomon for flat spots or drawdowns to last for months, and in some case years. (I know it probably doesnt happen to members at T2W cos you guys make money every day)

The problem is losing money.

I guess that I'll probably never understand the psychology of traders who lose money. The only way I can rationalise this is to assume if they experience a heavy loss in a short period, they assume its therefore possible to experience similar gains over a similar period (and they might have done so if they'd have bought rather than sold or vice versa). I'd probably argue that there's very little difference between these people, and any other mug punter.

There might even be an element of obsessive behaviour required at some point in order to trade, but I suppose it finally comes down to disipline and self governance (I'm starting to sound like Mr Socco). I'd probably argue that you are either in control of events, or you are not. Thats probably the only difference between a gambling addiction and trading. The trader who isnt making money is going to have a cut off point, he's going to monitor the situation to see if he can see improvement, he's going to set limits on the amount of capital bled away, or limits on how long he can speculate without either improvements, or positive returns. A gambling addict will allow events to control them.

 

[Triggerfish]

Yea, where is Socrates anyway? anyone know? any websites?
His understanding / wisdom is amazing "IF" only people can comprehend!

 

[the hare]

Yea, where is Socrates anyway? anyone know? any websites?
His understanding / wisdom is amazing "IF" only people can comprehend!

He's still posts on one of the better trading forums. I cant mention the name, cos the mods get a bit touchy about it

 

[counter_violent]

He's still posts on one of the better trading forums. I cant mention the name, cos the mods get a bit touchy about it

On the contrary, I would highly recommend people go over there. I'm sure everyone who did would at least come away with something, if only a headache

 

[scose-no-doubt]

what citybulls?

 

[neil]

FFS -The OP is still crashing about in other threads seeking information that will not help him to master the most important ingredient for profitable trading - his psychological make up !

Neither does he appear to absorb the more incisive advice proffered in the above posts

Perhaps he should try to take a higher degree and work for a bank or teach economics in a school environment

 

[wackypete2]

FFS -The OP is still crashing about in other threads seeking information that will not help him to master the most important ingredient for profitable trading - his psychological make up !

Neither does he appear to absorb the more incisive advice proffered in the above posts

Perhaps he should try to take a higher degree and work for a bank or teach economics in a school environment

Yeah, I haven't even bothered to answer in any of them. What's the use.
At this point I would say the best advice is from Shakone:

The opening poster should quit.

Peter

 

[lightclark]

My faith in my trading system has started to shake as well, i was profiting since my stochastic divergence system started, i had only really started this system for a couple of months, but i had been testing system for nearly year and half.

I only trade the Euro/USD,GBP/USD, and Dowjones...... and this few weeks of all the EU news really shaken me up...... now i am confused...

Really taking the confidence out from me

 

[tomorton]

Don't under-estimate what is going on right now - anybody's lucky to break even with all the news, political dealing and fear in the markets recently.

 

[Masquerade]

Don't under-estimate what is going on right now - anybody's lucky to break even with all the news, political dealing and fear in the markets recently.

Why not just short and make money?

 

[lightclark]

I am a newbie in trading but i personally couldnt just short it, cos like on the 09dec, they suddenly release some news and a few times too in the past week or 2. Even the momentum started to turn and all. Just suddenly it turn so fast.....i couldnt get out.....

 

[Splitlink]

I am a newbie in trading but i personally couldnt just short it, cos like on the 09dec, they suddenly release some news and a few times too in the past week or 2. Even the momentum started to turn and all. Just suddenly it turn so fast.....i couldnt get out.....

You are best off with a target. Then you get stopped. Of course, you always wish that you had made that bit more but, at least, you have a profit on that trade and it leaves you free to try a short, if you want, but I don't try much reversing against the trend. It usually makes me lose the profit that I have made, already. What you are trying to do, when you reverse like that, is to get the best of both worlds and spot the turn. That is difficult.

Keep trying and keep your stakes as low as you can, but do not be in a long trend,
take profits and reverse. Let the clever guys do that.

 

[lightclark]

You are best off with a target. Then you get stopped. Of course, you always wish that you had made that bit more but, at least, you have a profit on that trade and it leaves you free to try a short, if you want, but I don't try much reversing against the trend. It usually makes me lose the profit that I have made, already. What you are trying to do, when you reverse like that, is to get the best of both worlds and spot the turn. That is difficult.

Keep trying and keep your stakes as low as you can, but do not be in a long trend,
take profits and reverse. Let the clever guys do that.

Thanks for all the advice, i will work on it again today and see what i can do. Because i have a really tight set lost limit, and all these turmoil really affect my entry point, so basically i could only sit here and pretty much either cant enter, or get stop out quick..... maybe i need a better system... i really dunno....... but the old one was pretty good, profiting.... until all these crazy news and all

 

[Splitlink]

Thanks for all the advice, i will work on it again today and see what i can do. Because i have a really tight set lost limit, and all these turmoil really affect my entry point, so basically i could only sit here and pretty much either cant enter, or get stop out quick..... maybe i need a better system... i really dunno....... but the old one was pretty good, profiting.... until all these crazy news and all

A fairly easy start, IMO, is the SP500 or US Tech, which I think is Nasdaq In fact, I admit, it can be positively boring if you get a day like this afternoon. US Tech, with my SB dealer, has a spread of 3 points out of hours and follows the Footsie until the US open, when it has a 1 point spread and a margin of 20 pounds per 1 pound stake. I don't trade before 0700, myself, but it is a good index for beginner traders. Forex is a bit fierce and you can come back to it when you have practice. What you must do is not pay big money per point when you can get a pound, or even 50p. Conservation of capital when you are starting off is the main priority.

Just a suggestion. Good luck, whatever.

 

[Pipsaholic]

But at least the rats are getting paid. How long can you go on not making any money?

Yeah, for how long until next budget gets announced and jobs wiped off the map. I got plenty of time.

Hmm... Let me play Devil's Advocate for a moment. Everyone has to know what their limit is. Everyone has to have a point at which they say "this isn't for me, and I have to cut my losses." Only you can know this. The fact you are making this thread is that it's a last ditch effort to find enlightenment or you're out of the game. Be very attuned to this or you will only keep losing.

DT suggested making your own Journal. This is exactly what I've done last month, and I'm light years ahead already by being the luckiest guy on earth to have run into Robster who is willing to impart nuggets of wisdom. You might want to do the same.

Another thing. The only way to learn to be profitable in the market is to:

1) Watch it.

2) Know yourself.

If you believe system trading is for you, stick to one method until it is proven not to work. Then move on to the next, and then the next. One by one, you must work at it until you find something or give up on it.

My own "limit" is not monetary. It is when it is proven that I have no ability at the game. What is yours?

Good advice. I will refuse to be beaten. I will rise.

If you used a 500pt stop. Do you think you'd be better or worse off than you are now?

Isn't that suicide in this day and age or any age for that matter? I am not a gambler if thats what your thinking??

when you examined the trades that went wrong were they in line with the system rules ? if not was it down to yourself moving the goalposts.
do you think you could follow signals blindly?
2 times ATR is one hell of a target one half ATR would be more achievable on a regular trade basis

I just keep getting stopped out then price moves in the direction I want it to. 2 times ATR in other words 20% of the daily atr is usually my stop or area of interest.

Hi Pipsaholic,

From your post, it seems that it is your emotion-discipline-money management issue. Stay with your method if it work.

Make sure you know your plan well, no trade means no trade, do not force your trade. Example for me, I have not been trading since last week till now and looking at the majors, all of them are in wedging pattern with no trend at all. As my system require trend, I just stay sideway, go to gym, go running, whatever you like to do except trading.

just my 2 cents.

I get you, but I am impatient and need to see some profits or I will go insane for Christmas. It's true I need to be patient and wait for the setup and know I am guranteed to lose trades which I accept but I see no winners coming my way yet.

Asking other people to give you hope and support on an internet forum is such a sign of weakness. We're all (more or less) complete strangers to each other, so the idea that you can be spurred on by the thoughts and opinions of people you've never met and don't know you just highlights what a fragile mentality you have. Of course we all have doubts at some stage of our trading career, and our friends and family may not approve of what we're doing either, but that shouldn't matter because you're the only person who ultimately decides whether you should carry on or not based on your own assessment of whether you've got what it takes to succeed.


(^ I know this response was a bit rude, but I would rather give an honest answer than give false hope)

Isn't that the whole point of what a forum is about to support and help people in any way especially new traders. I don't see you as strangers were all family I thought anyway does it matter the fact I haven't blown my account 4 times the average newbie isnt that a sign of strength?? Well, its your honest answer but it doesn't help me much rather it looks negative for others in my position which are they say 95% of traders?

I wasn't trying to affirm my own ego by putting him down and I wasn't trying to be confrontational with anybody (jeez what's with T2W nowadays?).

All I was saying is that in my opinion a trader shouldn't be somebody who needs to seek support from other people (strangers on a internet forum/family and friends) in order to persevere when the going gets tough. I just think successful traders are very determined and strong people, who would have succeeded due to factors within themselves regardless of whether they had a support network around them.

And as for my ego, I can tell you that I'm not a successful trader at all, I lost some money at the start of my trading career and as a result I've been demo trading and researching for around 1.5 years. So in many ways I'm even more unsuccessful than the OP.

Never imagined this forum would have honest people as that.

FFS -The OP is still crashing about in other threads seeking information that will not help him to master the most important ingredient for profitable trading - his psychological make up !

Neither does he appear to absorb the more incisive advice proffered in the above posts

Perhaps he should try to take a higher degree and work for a bank or teach economics in a school environment

How do you know it won't help me why dont you just mind your own business rather than putting me down. I have read the previous comments ALL of them and trying to implement them into my trading. I think you should take on a degree in mastering negativity.


Some of the advice I have got on other forums is like day and night compared to here and isnt this supposed to be the number 1 forum out there for traders like not.