About To Give Up

[lightclark]

A fairly easy start, IMO, is the SP500 or US Tech, which I think is Nasdaq In fact, I admit, it can be positively boring if you get a day like this afternoon. US Tech, with my SB dealer, has a spread of 3 points out of hours and follows the Footsie until the US open, when it has a 1 point spread and a margin of 20 pounds per 1 pound stake. I don't trade before 0700, myself, but it is a good index for beginner traders. Forex is a bit fierce and you can come back to it when you have practice. What you must do is not pay big money per point when you can get a pound, or even 50p. Conservation of capital when you are starting off is the main priority.

Just a suggestion. Good luck, whatever.

Thanks for the advice I was going to choose smaller moving indices but my SB broker, limits the per pip value quite high for the US tech and such, but EUR and GBP is 50p which is one of the reason i choose the EUR/USD and GBP pair. I am just a bit unsure, because for the past half a year it works pretty well........ entry was good, exit was good...... then this week changed everything..... so i dunno if i should fix the system or work on something different. And i had been paper trading for 1 year, then live trade for about half a year....everything was good til now.... and i use stochastic divergence and fab resistance/support level.... and strong news like these just like kick the stochastic div in the face.... or maybe i am just bad at it haha

 

[MoonRocket]

.
Really taking the confidence out from me

Walk away from it for a while. Scared money can never win.
Never underestimate the value of taking a break, especially if you feel confused.
The market will still be there when you return.
The ability to walk away is one the most underrated of trading disciplines.

 

[neil]

Thanks for the advice I was going to choose smaller moving indices but my SB broker, limits the per pip value quite high for the US tech and such, but EUR and GBP is 50p which is one of the reason i choose the EUR/USD and GBP pair. I am just a bit unsure, because for the past half a year it works pretty well........ entry was good, exit was good...... then this week changed everything..... so i dunno if i should fix the system or work on something different. And i had been paper trading for 1 year, then live trade for about half a year....everything was good til now.... and i use stochastic divergence and fab resistance/support level.... and strong news like these just like kick the stochastic div in the face.... or maybe i am just bad at it haha

Have a look at these two methods:
Yet another moving average crossover system @ Forex Factory
Jankone M5 thread @ Forex Factory

and for price action in general, read chunks of this thread - lots of material but worth the effort
james16 Chart Thread @ Forex Factory

Hope the above helps you in your journey

 

[neil]

Yeah, for how long until next budget gets announced and jobs wiped off the map. I got plenty of time.



Good advice. I will refuse to be beaten. I will rise.



Isn't that suicide in this day and age or any age for that matter? I am not a gambler if thats what your thinking??




I just keep getting stopped out then price moves in the direction I want it to. 2 times ATR in other words 20% of the daily atr is usually my stop or area of interest.



I get you, but I am impatient and need to see some profits or I will go insane for Christmas. It's true I need to be patient and wait for the setup and know I am guranteed to lose trades which I accept but I see no winners coming my way yet.



Isn't that the whole point of what a forum is about to support and help people in any way especially new traders. I don't see you as strangers were all family I thought anyway does it matter the fact I haven't blown my account 4 times the average newbie isnt that a sign of strength?? Well, its your honest answer but it doesn't help me much rather it looks negative for others in my position which are they say 95% of traders?



Never imagined this forum would have honest people as that.





How do you know it won't help me why dont you just mind your own business rather than putting me down. I have read the previous comments ALL of them and trying to implement them into my trading. I think you should take on a degree in mastering negativity.


Some of the advice I have got on other forums is like day and night compared to here and isnt this supposed to be the number 1 forum out there for traders like not.

Face facts - you're bumbling all over the place looking for the grail ! You wont find it by buying some bundled signal service or someone elses trading method. And your posts suggest a level of immaturity and petulance that may well preclude you from success at trading.
Read, study, practice.
I realise that you will throw your toys out of the pram again when you read this so I will not waste more time by making any suggestions but you may profit by reading my reply to a poster above

 

[wallstreetwarrior87]

Hi,

Wondering if anyone can give me hope at trading as this looks like the end for me. Been trading for 10 months now 6 months demo and 4 months live with more losses than winners which where just luck imo.

I have taken the experts advice and devised my own system with no success. I have backtested it 2 years and it works, but hasn't forward testing on live real money. I either get in too early or late or get stopped out early. I use 2 times the ATR.

My only option is to dig through the web to find a proven system or some signal service for how long it lasts to be successful imo or else look for a new career which I am thinking trading may not be for me.

The problem asking for advice on an open forum is how do you qualify the advice given? We have no idea who were are conversing with, and certainly have no idea if these people are qualified to give advice.


Like it or not, independent retail trading means your on your own, you make your own decisions, good or bad, you pay the consequence for your actions. This is the reason most will never make any real success of trading, because in virtually everything else in life we can look to blame someone/something else. In trading everything is your fault, good or bad. Want to blame technical issues? Well if you take trading seriously it should be factored into your plan, so that any freak day does not blow your account etc, the same goes for slippage, stop hunts, people always seem to want announce injustice.

There are some funny threads about at the moment, all based on the same thing though; no-one takes the responsibility of going it alone. One thread amassed lots of pages in no time at all ( I wont promote it, but you probably know the one). This thread was focused on one person making calls, so rather than the individuals concentrating on their own performance, they are wasting time trying to prove/disprove someone else's ability.

Focus on yourself and compare to no-one!

To prove a point, I have highlighted your comment about "expert" advice on developing a system;

So who are these experts, and how do you know they are experts? Why develop a system? What are the other alternatives? Have you actually gone into any of this?

Trading is more about developing yourself, than developing a Mickey Mouse system.

So maybe as a start, you would be better of listing 10 things you think you should do to improve the situation?

Do they have to be all about trading?

I would say good luck in your endeavors, but luck has nothing to do with it. Be precise about your goals and how you are going to achieve them (may well take a few months to get your head around it), and then begin from a fresh start.

But then again, I suppose I have just offered advice, so best ignore it:-0

 

[Pipsaholic]

Face facts - you're bumbling all over the place looking for the grail ! You wont find it by buying some bundled signal service or someone elses trading method. And your posts suggest a level of immaturity and petulance that may well preclude you from success at trading.
Read, study, practice.
I realise that you will throw your toys out of the pram again when you read this so I will not waste more time by making any suggestions but you may profit by reading my reply to a poster above

I have already found the holy grail ages ago its you nothing else. I did fall for some trading systems but I am designing my own, doesn't all people new to the game including myself go through this??

The problem asking for advice on an open forum is how do you qualify the advice given? We have no idea who were are conversing with, and certainly have no idea if these people are qualified to give advice.


Like it or not, independent retail trading means your on your own, you make your own decisions, good or bad, you pay the consequence for your actions. This is the reason most will never make any real success of trading, because in virtually everything else in life we can look to blame someone/something else. In trading everything is your fault, good or bad. Want to blame technical issues? Well if you take trading seriously it should be factored into your plan, so that any freak day does not blow your account etc, the same goes for slippage, stop hunts, people always seem to want announce injustice.

There are some funny threads about at the moment, all based on the same thing though; no-one takes the responsibility of going it alone. One thread amassed lots of pages in no time at all ( I wont promote it, but you probably know the one). This thread was focused on one person making calls, so rather than the individuals concentrating on their own performance, they are wasting time trying to prove/disprove someone else's ability.

Focus on yourself and compare to no-one!

To prove a point, I have highlighted your comment about "expert" advice on developing a system;

So who are these experts, and how do you know they are experts? Why develop a system? What are the other alternatives? Have you actually gone into any of this?

Trading is more about developing yourself, than developing a Mickey Mouse system.

So maybe as a start, you would be better of listing 10 things you think you should do to improve the situation?

Do they have to be all about trading?

I would say good luck in your endeavors, but luck has nothing to do with it. Be precise about your goals and how you are going to achieve them (may well take a few months to get your head around it), and then begin from a fresh start.

But then again, I suppose I have just offered advice, so best ignore it:-0

The advice which is given I take it on the chin and its my job to filter out what is good/bad advice, which is actually practicial and works you could say that about anything in life.

Yes, true trading is all about mass psychology and developing yourself, but I disagree that this has to be done all by yourself. Don't amateur footballers, basketball players need to develop around a team and adjust to the new rules of the game. Trading is no different yes its ultimately down to the individual, but he/she doesn't aquire those skills through his own technical analysis.

How do I know they are experts? Well, you go by what they tell you and you got to trust some people if you trust no one you will get no where imo.

Why develop a system? Well, its based on what I want out of the market not what someone is telling me I should or shouldn't do. Yes, they are alternatives its what you feel confortable with.

 

[Masquerade]

Isn't that suicide in this day and age or any age for that matter? I am not a gambler if thats what your thinking??

Just go through it and come back to me with an answer. Just answer the damn question. Your thinking's all wrong, it's a bigger gamble using smaller stops - people just get scared because they leverage up to their eyeballs so 100 pips represents a huge amount of their account. No-one said anything about gambling I'd bet good money you'd probably be in profit or have lost a lot less than you have now if you didn't use such ****ty small stops - but you did that because that's how everyone tells you to trade.

 

[Splitlink]

Just go through it and come back to me with an answer. Just answer the damn question. Your thinking's all wrong, it's a bigger gamble using smaller stops - people just get scared because they leverage up to their eyeballs so 100 pips represents a huge amount of their account. No-one said anything about gambling I'd bet good money you'd probably be in profit or have lost a lot less than you have now if you didn't use such ****ty small stops - but you did that because that's how everyone tells you to trade.

You could be right about tight stops, I don't say no. I know someone who is out of the trade if it has not gone in his chosen direction, within a specified time.

A trader like that expects his direction to be right, almost at once. That's confidence for you. If it is not he can't be bothered with it.

 

[new_trader]

You could be right about tight stops, I don't say no. I know someone who is out of the trade if it has not gone in his chosen direction, within a specified time.

A trader like that expects his direction to be right, almost at once. That's confidence for you. If it is not he can't be bothered with it.

I trade with tight stops. I learned to trade with tight stops and continue to use tight stops. I haven't changed the size of my stop in over 5 years, regardless of market volatility...99.99% of what is said in this forum about tight stops is absolute rubbish.

 

[DionysusToast]

I have already found the holy grail ages ago its you nothing else. I did fall for some trading systems but I am designing my own, doesn't all people new to the game including myself go through this??



The advice which is given I take it on the chin and its my job to filter out what is good/bad advice, which is actually practicial and works you could say that about anything in life.

Yes, true trading is all about mass psychology and developing yourself, but I disagree that this has to be done all by yourself. Don't amateur footballers, basketball players need to develop around a team and adjust to the new rules of the game. Trading is no different yes its ultimately down to the individual, but he/she doesn't aquire those skills through his own technical analysis.

How do I know they are experts? Well, you go by what they tell you and you got to trust some people if you trust no one you will get no where imo.

Why develop a system? Well, its based on what I want out of the market not what someone is telling me I should or shouldn't do. Yes, they are alternatives its what you feel confortable with.

There is no easy answer to this.

For every legitimate trading mentor, there are 100 or even 1000 that are scammers.

For every member on a forum that is making money, there are 1,000 or 10,000 that are not.

On this forum now, you might have 10 people that are making money from all of the active posters. The number may be lower. It may be as low as 1.

The best way to get good advice is to meet some traders in real life. This may seem impossible but I met quite a few traders just through regular plain old vanilla networking & going out with friends. I met a guy at a logistics networking event in Singapore who's best mate he dragged along was a trader very much interested in the free beer aspect of the event.

For me - well I ended up meeting legitimate traders AFTER getting training. The first trainer I found took me for about $3.5k before I realised he was a con-man. Prior to that I'd spent at least $2k on crappy books & ebooks.

It really is a nightmare because what you end up learning is as plain as the nose on your face in my opinion. It's almost as if there's an intentional campaign of disinformation to keep you from the glaringly obvious.

 

[wallstreetwarrior87]

Yes, true trading is all about mass psychology and developing yourself, but I disagree that this has to be done all by yourself. Don't amateur footballers, basketball players need to develop around a team and adjust to the new rules of the game. Trading is no different yes its ultimately down to the individual, but he/she doesn't aquire those skills through his own technical analysis.

How do I know they are experts? Well, you go by what they tell you and you got to trust some people if you trust no one you will get no where imo.

Why develop a system? Well, its based on what I want out of the market not what someone is telling me I should or shouldn't do. Yes, they are alternatives its what you feel confortable with.

It is fine to disagree, it shows you do not take anything as gospal, but you must work through all the angles to come to a conclusion.

How do you know that an individual does not acquire his/her skills by themselves? You use the term technical analysis, but you are shutting yourself off to the possibilities that you have at your disposal. You appear to have programmed yourself into one dimensional thought.

Team players play in team games, this is not a team game, in fact there are very few environments to compare to trading. I doubt the likes of Michael Jordan were concerned with others when he was developing his skills! It is far more likely he was on the court on his OWN, learning and developing the persona that he became.

After you read your first book or attend your first seminar you tend to get hooked, and think this is the way to go, this is understandable as we know no better at this point. But further investigation must bring you to the conclusion that most of the tripe spouted about will only ever enable you to gain a tiny advantage at BEST, and this is a given that you have the ability to control yourself as well.

As an example, a lot of experts suggest following the "trend". This is in fact a very subjective topic as a trend that every Tom, Dick and Harry can see may in fact be guiding them straight into an ambush! What is more worrying is that they do not even realise it To make things even worse traders try to develop a whole system around it:-0:-0

Yes, trust is very important, but you must start by trusting yourself, and you must make sure your trust is built on a solid foundation. From your post this still appears to be work in progress.

So what do you want out of the market? Be precise, and how are you going to achieve this?

Enjoy the ride!

 

[wallstreetwarrior87]

It really is a nightmare because what you end up learning is as plain as the nose on your face in my opinion. It's almost as if there's an intentional campaign of disinformation to keep you from the glaringly obvious.

Very true

 

[Splitlink]

It is fine to disagree, it shows you do not take anything as gospal, but you must work through all the angles to come to a conclusion.

How do you know that an individual does not acquire his/her skills by themselves? You use the term technical analysis, but you are shutting yourself off to the possibilities that you have at your disposal. You appear to have programmed yourself into one dimensional thought.

Team players play in team games, this is not a team game, in fact there are very few environments to compare to trading. I doubt the likes of Michael Jordan were concerned with others when he was developing his skills! It is far more likely he was on the court on his OWN, learning and developing the persona that he became.

After you read your first book or attend your first seminar you tend to get hooked, and think this is the way to go, this is understandable as we know no better at this point. But further investigation must bring you to the conclusion that most of the tripe spouted about will only ever enable you to gain a tiny advantage at BEST, and this is a given that you have the ability to control yourself as well.

As an example, a lot of experts suggest following the "trend". This is in fact a very subjective topic as a trend that every Tom, Dick and Harry can see may in fact be guiding them straight into an ambush! What is more worrying is that they do not even realise it To make things even worse traders try to develop a whole system around it:-0:-0

Yes, trust is very important, but you must start by trusting yourself, and you must make sure your trust is built on a solid foundation. From your post this still appears to be work in progress.

So what do you want out of the market? Be precise, and how are you going to achieve this?

Enjoy the ride!

There is no free lunch in trading. I read this in one of my first books on trading and it is true. Therefore, when you criticise trend following you are in danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Of course, you can walk into an ambush. It happens all the time, but you can't ,simply, write trend following off just because of that! Neither can you blame the system just because the innocent trader may not, even realise it. A losing trader never realises the traps that he is falling into. If he does, he's a fool.

 

[Pipsaholic]

Just go through it and come back to me with an answer. Just answer the damn question. Your thinking's all wrong, it's a bigger gamble using smaller stops - people just get scared because they leverage up to their eyeballs so 100 pips represents a huge amount of their account. No-one said anything about gambling I'd bet good money you'd probably be in profit or have lost a lot less than you have now if you didn't use such ****ty small stops - but you did that because that's how everyone tells you to trade.

I disagree with having large stops imo you only hoping that the market will switch in your direction after your area of planning doesn't go to plan I would rather take a small loss and plan again multiple times till it moves for me.

I trade with tight stops. I learned to trade with tight stops and continue to use tight stops. I haven't changed the size of my stop in over 5 years, regardless of market volatility...99.99% of what is said in this forum about tight stops is absolute rubbish.

There you go an honourable trader using tight stops for years not for everyone but it can be done.

There is no easy answer to this.

For every legitimate trading mentor, there are 100 or even 1000 that are scammers.

For every member on a forum that is making money, there are 1,000 or 10,000 that are not.

On this forum now, you might have 10 people that are making money from all of the active posters. The number may be lower. It may be as low as 1.

The best way to get good advice is to meet some traders in real life. This may seem impossible but I met quite a few traders just through regular plain old vanilla networking & going out with friends. I met a guy at a logistics networking event in Singapore who's best mate he dragged along was a trader very much interested in the free beer aspect of the event.

For me - well I ended up meeting legitimate traders AFTER getting training. The first trainer I found took me for about $3.5k before I realised he was a con-man. Prior to that I'd spent at least $2k on crappy books & ebooks.

It really is a nightmare because what you end up learning is as plain as the nose on your face in my opinion. It's almost as if there's an intentional campaign of disinformation to keep you from the glaringly obvious.

I believe that they are more legitamate people out there than those out to conn you. I always ask the question why someone would put time, money, fustration and effort to teach or help people if there is nothing in it for them. Thing is people label that guy and this guy a scammer because they couldn't follow simple instructions and label the whole company and the individuals criminals you ever notice they never give legitimate reasons. Yes, they are conn men out there in every industry I am not denying that, but what is a conn man to 1 person is a legitamite to another person just look at bankers who used to be highly respected the same people are saying now they should be behind bars.

It is fine to disagree, it shows you do not take anything as gospal, but you must work through all the angles to come to a conclusion.

How do you know that an individual does not acquire his/her skills by themselves? You use the term technical analysis, but you are shutting yourself off to the possibilities that you have at your disposal. You appear to have programmed yourself into one dimensional thought.

Team players play in team games, this is not a team game, in fact there are very few environments to compare to trading. I doubt the likes of Michael Jordan were concerned with others when he was developing his skills! It is far more likely he was on the court on his OWN, learning and developing the persona that he became.

After you read your first book or attend your first seminar you tend to get hooked, and think this is the way to go, this is understandable as we know no better at this point. But further investigation must bring you to the conclusion that most of the tripe spouted about will only ever enable you to gain a tiny advantage at BEST, and this is a given that you have the ability to control yourself as well.

As an example, a lot of experts suggest following the "trend". This is in fact a very subjective topic as a trend that every Tom, Dick and Harry can see may in fact be guiding them straight into an ambush! What is more worrying is that they do not even realise it To make things even worse traders try to develop a whole system around it:-0:-0

Yes, trust is very important, but you must start by trusting yourself, and you must make sure your trust is built on a solid foundation. From your post this still appears to be work in progress.

So what do you want out of the market? Be precise, and how are you going to achieve this?

Enjoy the ride!

Firstly, how do I know that people don't aquire the skills themselves? Well, they do to some extent, but everyone at some point need guidance if that were the case that we self learned everything then there would be no need for schools or learning courses for any industry.

If it wasn't for Michael Jordan coach he would never of been the player he was in his own interview he mentions this.

What I want out of the market some peace and constant small pips I know the big moves will come with time and experience and some kick up the a** at times.

I will acheive this by not blowing my account and trying what works.

 

[Masquerade]

I disagree with having large stops imo you only hoping that the market will switch in your direction after your area of planning doesn't go to plan I would rather take a small loss and plan again multiple times till it moves for me.

I don't really care what you think. I asked you to go through your trades and see. Do that and post the results, not your opinion. Just because you have a stop, it doesn't mean to say it has to get hit.

 

[samirdu16]

while trading .. you become successful in the moment when you hold on when you are exactly about to quit and give up !! so dont back down !! dont give up ! you can always get up !

 

[bevok]

This is a good thread. Just some thoughts based on my experiences:

I think whether you take the advice of books or not, trading seminars and trainers and pay per hour mentors or not, is a matter of who you are as a person and whether you can get rid of your preconceptions as you begin learning. It also depends hugely on your objectives, and the beliefs you develop about the market. The technical aspects like whether you use large stops or small stops aren't nearly as important at this stage. They influence your % winners, position size and, if you don't use wise money management your probability of failure. You can win with large or small stops depending on your exit strategy % risk and whether you're putting yourself into trades with good probability:RR (or expectancy) - there are no hard rules.
What is important is understanding what markets are, what timeframe suits you (recognising the chances of a beginning trader making money consistently intraday are tiny) and finding a method that makes sense.
I'd recommend practising for months (preferably on a real account with small size) keeping a trader's diary. Through all the winning and more likely losing you'll have a chance to see what happens when you're consistent, the consequences of not following your plan etc. Elder's Triple Screen is a good method for this, you shouldn't make or lose a lot if you implement it correctly and you'll learn about money management, observe market movement and practice consistency as you go. I'd recommend trading the daily timeframe. Also don't forget most systems have their ups and downs anyway. For example an end of day system can easily have a year or so without an equity high but still have a good long term expectancy, due to market cycles. Based on my experience and the real traders I know, be skeptical of anyone who claims to generate X% a month consistently every month without fail, and don't walk into it with that expectation. What's important is average returns over time.

 

[Pipsaholic]

while trading .. you become successful in the moment when you hold on when you are exactly about to quit and give up !! so dont back down !! dont give up ! you can always get up !

Sure, bud got you I will rise and not be defeated I know the answer is out there and within me.

This is a good thread. Just some thoughts based on my experiences:

I think whether you take the advice of books or not, trading seminars and trainers and pay per hour mentors or not, is a matter of who you are as a person and whether you can get rid of your preconceptions as you begin learning. It also depends hugely on your objectives, and the beliefs you develop about the market. The technical aspects like whether you use large stops or small stops aren't nearly as important at this stage. They influence your % winners, position size and, if you don't use wise money management your probability of failure. You can win with large or small stops depending on your exit strategy % risk and whether you're putting yourself into trades with good probability:RR (or expectancy) - there are no hard rules.
What is important is understanding what markets are, what timeframe suits you (recognising the chances of a beginning trader making money consistently intraday are tiny) and finding a method that makes sense.
I'd recommend practising for months (preferably on a real account with small size) keeping a trader's diary. Through all the winning and more likely losing you'll have a chance to see what happens when you're consistent, the consequences of not following your plan etc. Elder's Triple Screen is a good method for this, you shouldn't make or lose a lot if you implement it correctly and you'll learn about money management, observe market movement and practice consistency as you go. I'd recommend trading the daily timeframe. Also don't forget most systems have their ups and downs anyway. For example an end of day system can easily have a year or so without an equity high but still have a good long term expectancy, due to market cycles. Based on my experience and the real traders I know, be skeptical of anyone who claims to generate X% a month consistently every month without fail, and don't walk into it with that expectation. What's important is average returns over time.

Your advice is 5 star I tell you. I get its all about yourself how to interpret information wherever it comes from. I know roughly how the market works what goes against me is my experience. The daily although more relaxed and gives you more time to do your technical analysis I have a lot of time on my hands at the moment so I rather know within a few hours where I was right or wrong rather than wait next week I am impatient. Not heard of the elder system will have a peak at it however I am sticking to what suits me I have removed a lot of my systems. Some top traders say you only need a trend line or S&R lines to trade successfully I am starting to believe.

Thanks.

 

[bevok]

Your advice is 5 star I tell you. I get its all about yourself how to interpret information wherever it comes from. I know roughly how the market works what goes against me is my experience. The daily although more relaxed and gives you more time to do your technical analysis I have a lot of time on my hands at the moment so I rather know within a few hours where I was right or wrong rather than wait next week I am impatient. Not heard of the elder system will have a peak at it however I am sticking to what suits me I have removed a lot of my systems. Some top traders say you only need a trend line or S&R lines to trade successfully I am starting to believe.

Thanks.

Yes I'm not saying rush out and change to Triple Screen, just that its a system you won't be able to go too far wrong with while you learn to trade and investigate systems for the long run (which might take up to a year or two). Have a look at Peter Brandt, he's made a lot of money from ordinary classical chart patterns etc. The method is incidental, its the trader psychology primarily that counts along with risk management and realistic expectations, in my opinion.