Article The Value of Coaching And The Difficulty in Finding One

sandpiper

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charliechan said:
lol - im sorry for misunderstanding what was not in fact a misunderstanding. the misunderstanding was entirly mine. now i understand! i realise that you could equally peel away the leaves of an iceberg lettuce with a knife and fork.
Charlie,

I am glad we cleared that up. Well, almost.. :LOL: the "iceberg lettuce / knife and fork" was actually a reference to a suggestion made by Socrates on the best way to practice brain surgery.

timsk,

Oh dear. It's one of life's great mysteries how several people can read the same thing and interpret it completely differently. Personally, I like try and approach things from a more positive perspective and if in doubt as to someones intent clarify before laying down challenges such as this. However, each to his own.

fwiw, my take on DB's comments were:

. . . . For one thing, the sort of coach I referred to in my post does not "teach the student to trade as he does", though if that's the sort of coach you want, you don't have to go searching for one. All you have to do is stand still and they'll be all over you.
.

In other words, there are numerous people on T2W who will gladly 'teach' you their method or sell you their signals. The FX forums are teaming with them for a start. And DB is surely absolutely, you don't have to approach them. They are 'all over you'.

If you or anyone you know is looking for a coach, I suggest you prowl the boards, particularly this one, and focus on those who are doing the work in one form or another rather than just talking about it. Read what they say. Assess what they do. Even with all the caveats that accompany hindsight postings, you'll be able to tell over time who knows what they're doing and who doesn't. And if they've been posting for a while, there will be archives you can study, just in case you're for some reason in a hurry.Db
There are numerous people compiling journals in some shape or form. Some of them are good, some not so good. Some people would benefit from reading all of them, working out who was doing the work, what was working for them, what wasn't, who knew what they were doing who didn't. Possibly based on that a dialogue could be entered into with the journal's owner(s). Of course there are also excellent very specific threads from Skim and Chartman.

As for the rest of your post in relation to specific contributors... I couldn't disagree more (with the possible exception of the observation of the fact that they don't get on.... but then, so what!!!).

Each of them has been more than generous in sharing their insights into various aspects of trading, insights that have obviously cost them a great deal to acquire in personal terms. These insights should be viewed as far more valuable than any attempt to teach a specific method. Actually, in the case of Mr. Marcus. I have sometimes been astounded (actually sometimes I have been quite dismayed) by his generosity. It is surely to his credit as a man, I only hope it won't be to his detriment as trader.

Anyway, each of them, with the exception of Grey 1 and Mr. C. has only ever offered to 'open peoples eyes' to the possibilities that present themselves. BTW, I separate Grey 1 simply because he sternly advocates the use of a specific set of semi automated methods and Mr. C because he charges for his services.

Of course the irony with all of this is that most people simply don't know what they don't know and will have to do an extraordinary amount of work before they understand the true value of these contributions. Needless to say, that is work most people aren't prepared to do.

When you say

So, how - precisely - is the the 'newbie' or not so new trader supposed to distinguish between the five gurus and decide which to listen to and which to ignore? Perhaps I should create a poll and let members cast their votes . . . ?
I'm loath to quote you here since I believe the lumping together of the contributors under the term 'guru' to be insulting to say the least. However, simply put, It's up to every individual to do the work necessary to determine whether any contribution, from anybody, has merit. Anyway, to my knowledge, none of the contributors you mention (with the exception of Mr C. is selling anything any more than other insightful posters such as Tony TB, GJ, Arb, etc. are.

As such please don't insult their generosity further by crass suggestions such as a poll. I don't know if anybody has told you this but the market isn't a democracy, a fact I'm reminded of all too frequently with a slap.

Regards.
 
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timsk

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dbphoenix said:
And incidentally, Tim, try not to morph what I say into what you think you read. Note my comment "the sort of coach I referred to in my post . . .". Richard is not the sort of coach I referred to in my post. Richard does what he does and I have every reason to believe that he does it well. And I have every reason to believe that those who claim to have learned a great deal from him have in fact done so.
But, again, Richard is not the type of "coach" that I referred to in my post. And I hope that Richard knows that.
Db
Hi dbp,
Fair point; I take that on board. Nonetheless, I'm glad I posted my post and that you have made the point that you have, as other readers could infer - incorrectly it seems - as I did, that you were having a sideways snipe at Richard. I'm glad that's not the case.

As for your earlier response to my post, I understand perfectly that you don't claim to be a top trader or offer the latest holy grail system. And that's fine as far as it goes. But, put yourself in the shoes of a newbie trader who trawls through these boards looking for inspiration, knowledge, wisdom, insight and what have you. Likely as not, sooner later they will stumble upon your posts - just as I did. The simple point that I was trying to make is that - as far as I'm aware - in spite of the thousands of brilliantly written and very well informed offerings, you don't post your trades. You can 'talk the talk' but can you 'walk the walk'? If not, your posts amount to little more than theoretical hot air. You understand the point I'm trying to make, I hope?
Tim.
 
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timsk

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sandpiper said:
I'm loath to quote you here since I believe the lumping together of the contributors under the term 'guru' to be insulting to say the least. However, simply put, It's up to every individual to do the work necessary to determine whether any contribution, from anybody, has merit. Anyway, to my knowledge, none of the contributors you mention (with the exception of Mr C. is selling anything any more than other insightful posters such as Tony TB, GJ, Arb, etc. are.

As such please don't insult their generosity further by crass suggestions such as a poll. I don't know if anybody has told you this but the market isn't a democracy, a fact I'm reminded of all too frequently with a slap.

Regards.
Sandpiper,
You'll have to take me at my word when i say that I never intend to insult anybody. I'm sorry if you found my post to be insulting and crass - it certainly was not my intention. I like to think that I consider more carefully than most how a post of mine might be interpreted before posting it. I read, re-read and edit several times before hitting the submit button. Occasionally, I get it wrong it would seem. Everyone gets it wrong on occasions and if we all worried unduly about writing something that others might find insulting or crass - then T2W would be a BB ghost town. That said, i will reflect upon your comments and strive to make posts of a higher standard in future.
Regards,
Tim.
 

TheBramble

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timsk said:
Hi dbp [...] in spite of the thousands of brilliantly written and very well informed offerings, you don't post your trades. You can 'talk the talk' but can you 'walk the walk'? If not, your posts amount to little more than theoretical hot air.
With respect to all timsk, not posting trades is no more an indication of lack of real trading experience and expertise than posting 'trades' is any indication they were actually traded that way, or at all, or that any real expertise exists other than in the ability to retrospectively cherry-pick and provide basic reference works...

As for the 'gurus' - I don't have much time for anyone who deliberately goes about setting themselves up as such, but a great deal for those who end up through obvious skill, knowledge and genuine positive intent, being awarded the 'title' by consensus and, more importantly - manage to maintain the humility to honestly retain it. Few. Very few.
 
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SOCRATES

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Timsk,

First of all, your list is not complete, but I will not mention the missing members if you won't.

If that list were complete, it would be divided into mechanicals and intuitives, that is many more intuitives than mechanicals as it is.

We, the intuitives,trade in a very different way to the mechanicals, but we are obligated to explain everything in mechanical mode so that the great majority of members can follow the reasoning in tangible form.

At an intuitive level, the decision making process is somewhat different because the chart becomes a point of reference, rather like one would have a road map in the glove box when driving ...just in case it is needed.

It means that at an intuitive level, as Mr Marcus has already mentioned and I do not want to ...and there is no need for me to labour the point....but a conclusion is arrived at in literally seconds when presented with a scenario.

Then the most favourable point of entry is chosen so that the position has the maximum potential for fleetingly being at the money but moving into the money very quickly.

Also at that juncture, in direct contavention of what is common practice a stop level is chosen and mentally logged but not enacted.

There is the added complication of fractured filling sometimes because all orders go in at limit.

Then the price progression is monitored very closely to ascertain the rate of advancement and whether it is in line with the anticipated rate or how the prices are being progressed....all of this from sources outside the chart....so there is a lot of multitasking to do and frequently very fast.

Then in advance of the event the exit point is chosen and the ambush set for fills.

All of this is quite complex and up to four screens are used at a time.

Therefore I have enough to concentrate on when running positions without having to additionally introduce other distractions.

For this reason I do not post my trades.

But the main reason I do not do it is because I respond and engage and disengage intuitively.

If I post trades then they have to be accompanied by charts which have to be explained mechanically. I just don't have the time to do this.

I prefer not to, in any event as it prevents me from keeping an eye on the ball at the leading edge of intent.

And then,also if I were to post the chart to accompany the trade, because the trade is chosen not according to the chart necessarily, then the explanation would be subject to a lot of questions, that frankly would require a lot of work that I am not prepared to do, because of time constraints.

And those are the reasons, nothing more, nothing less.
 

timsk

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TheBramble said:
With respect to all timsk, not posting trades is no more an indication of lack of real trading experience and expertise than posting 'trades' is any indication they were actually traded that way, or at all, or that any real expertise exists other than in the ability to retrospectively cherry-pick and provide basic reference works...
Tony,
I'm not accusing dbp - or anyone else - of a lack of trading experience. He's probably very active and raking in squillions every day for all I know. Indeed, I hope he is. The point I was attempting to address is how the newbie reading dbp's posts - or yours for that matter - is able to reconcile the numerous theoretical offerings relative to the sparse number of practical ones. Mr. charts, Naz and mr.marcus provide both. The theory is endorsed by real trades posted for all to see. I can spout some flowery language that impresses a newbie, but you could spot me as a chancer a mile off! My suspicion is that dbp is a very fine trader, but boy would his posts carry (even more) weight if he were to post some real live trades to back up the theory.
Tim.
 

dbphoenix

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timsk said:
Hi dbp,
Fair point; I take that on board. Nonetheless, I'm glad I posted my post and that you have made the point that you have, as other readers could infer - incorrectly it seems - as I did, that you were having a sideways snipe at Richard. I'm glad that's not the case.

As for your earlier response to my post, I understand perfectly that you don't claim to be a top trader or offer the latest holy grail system. And that's fine as far as it goes. But, put yourself in the shoes of a newbie trader who trawls through these boards looking for inspiration, knowledge, wisdom, insight and what have you. Likely as not, sooner later they will stumble upon your posts - just as I did. The simple point that I was trying to make is that - as far as I'm aware - in spite of the thousands of brilliantly written and very well informed offerings, you don't post your trades. You can 'talk the talk' but can you 'walk the walk'? If not, your posts amount to little more than theoretical hot air. You understand the point I'm trying to make, I hope?
Tim.
As for Richard, no one else has brought him up. Perhaps that's because I had no one in particular in mind when I made my initial post. I was, in fact, responding to the article. I did not have Richard in mind nor anyone else. If you think I did, that's pretty much your projection.

As for your continued sniping with regard to my failure to post trades, I'm not at all clear why you insist on doing so in public. If you find nothing of value in my posts, don't read them. If you find nothing of value in my book, I will offer yet again to give you your money back.

The problem here seems to be that you're looking for somebody to emulate, a system you can obtain from somebody else; hence your concern about "walking the walk". I gave you a year to provide me with a trading plan, or even the beginnings of one, and you never provided me with anything at all other than good intentions. If you had worked with me, I might have been able to help you create something of use to you. However, you did not, choosing instead to ask general questions, to which I can give little more than general answers. Those general answers were apparently of little help to you, but since you refused to provide me with any information regarding what you were doing, that's hardly my fault.

I've worked with hundreds of people over the years and I learned some time ago that working with individuals who are not willing to do more than the minimum is a waste of my time. Even if I had a system to sell or were willing to charge somebody to learn to trade as I do, their money would be wasted since they would be very unlikely to succeed doing what I do. Why? Because it's mine. I created it over the course of twenty years. Can I transplant that into a newbie? Of course not. So I don't try.

Therefore, I ask basic questions and give some basic, preliminary tasks. If the person does them, fine, we go on from there. If they don't, then that's that. No time wasted. No hard feelings. But since so few people have elected to make that effort, I have a lot more free time and no frustrations.

So if you're looking for somebody who "walks [what you consider to be] the walk", I suggest you review sandpiper's post (nice post, by the way, sandpiper; you'll go far) and contact one of the dozens at t2w who have something to sell. I'm sure you will have no trouble finding someone to take your money. As for me, I don't claim to be Paul Tudor Jones, but I'm more than happy with what I make. If you're not happy with what you make, then it's up to you to take steps to remedy the situation.

Db
 
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timsk

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dbphoenix said:
As for your continued sniping with regard to my failure to post trades, I'm not at all clear why you insist on doing so in public. If you find nothing of value in my posts, don't read them. If you find nothing of value in my book, I will offer yet again to give you your money back.
Dbp,
I'm not sniping at you at all, just making a simple point of fact. As to the value of your posts, it is precisely because I value them that say the things I've said. As for your book, I rate it very highly and regard the money as being very well spent, thank you.

dbphoenix said:
The problem here seems to be that you're looking for somebody to emulate, a system you can obtain from somebody else; hence your concern about "walking the walk". I gave you a year to provide me with a trading plan, or even the beginnings of one, and you never provided me with anything at all other than good intentions. If you had worked with me, I might have been able to help you create something of use to you.
No, I am not looking to emulate anyone - not you or Richard or anyone else. I'm afraid this is you projecting onto me. As for providing you with my trading plan, why would I do that unless you were going to enter into a coach / student type of relationship? You say that you make no claims to being a great trader. That's fine up to a point, but why would I or anyone else ask you for help without first finding out if all the fine words actually pan out and put money in the bank? This is the only point I've been making and to my mind it is a simple and reasonable one.
dbphoenix said:
I've worked with hundreds of people over the years and I learned some time ago that working with individuals who are not willing to do more than the minimum is a waste of my time. Even if I had a system to sell or were willing to charge somebody to learn to trade as I do, their money would be wasted since they would be very unlikely to succeed doing what I do. Why? Because it's mine. I created it over the course of twenty years. Can I transplant that into a newbie? Of course not. So I don't try.
This is fine and I understand all of this perfectly. No problem.
dbphoenix said:
Therefore, I ask basic questions and give some basic, preliminary tasks. If the person does them, fine, we go on from there. If they don't, then that's that. No time wasted. No hard feelings. But since so few people have elected to make that effort, I have a lot more free time and no frustrations.
So if you're looking for somebody who "walks [what you consider to be] the walk", I suggest you review sandpiper's post (nice post, by the way, sandpiper; you'll go far) and contact one of the dozens at t2w who have something to sell. I'm sure you will have no trouble finding someone to take your money. As for me, I don't claim to be Paul Tudor Jones, but I'm more than happy with what I make. If you're not happy with what you make, then it's up to you to take steps to remedy the situation.
Db
Thanks for the advice, but it's about four years too late. I am an old hand when it comes to the subject of coaches and what to look for in a good one. To those that enquire of my experience in this area, I advise them to get a very precise measure of what it is that they expect or hope the tutor / coach will do for them. Most importantly, ensure that this reflects what the tutor is actually offering to do for them. The two are often mis aligned. In your case, I haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about when you say that "I might have been able to help you create something of use to you". In spite of my questions, I am none the wiser as to what a student / tutor relationship with you would yield, other than an even larger pile of unanswered questions.
Tim.
 
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dbphoenix

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Since you elect to continue this in public, I'll respond to some of this.

timsk said:
Dbp,
I'm not sniping at you at all, just making a simple point of fact.
Stating that my posts are "theoretical hot air" is not what I'd call a testimonial.

timsk said:
I haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about when you say that "I might have been able to help you create something of use to you". In spite of my questions, I am none the wiser as to what a student / tutor relationship with you would yield, other than an even larger pile of unanswered questions.
No, you don't have the faintest idea what I'm talking about when I say that you never made the slightest effort to come up with a trading plan that would provide a point of departure, which is why you're where you are. A "tutor" relationship with me (if you choose to call it that) would yield a consistently profitable trading plan IF you had chosen to do any of the work. You chose not to. This is not my problem.

Your comment that the trader should determine just "what the tutor is actually offering to do for them" pretty much sums up what it is you're looking for, whether you recognize that or not.

Db

And to whatever moderator is hovering in the background, if you want to delete all of this or move it to Seminars & Tutors, that's fine by me. This stuff has only a tenuous connection, if any, to the subject of the thread.
 

TheBramble

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Re:Title of Thread

QED
 

JumpOff

1
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dbphoenix said:
And to whatever moderator is hovering in the background, if you want to delete all of this or move it to Seminars & Tutors, that's fine by me. This stuff has only a tenuous connection, if any, to the subject of the thread.
(emphasis added by JumpOff)
On the contrary. The discussion between DBPhoenix and Tim may serve as a caution to all who think about entering into any kind of relationship with another trader (including that of mentor/coach). This is true whether you are the beginner, the peer, or the competent. It is useful to ask some questions, or to state your expectations at the outset, in order to avoid disappointment.

The beginner has a goal - to find out if it is possible to consistently make profits by trading, and to find out if he/she has the temperament to do what is necessary to achieve this. There is a plethora of information available, so the task is how to weed out the grain from the chaff? Since the beginner has no experience to enable him/her to judge the worthiness of any statement, (or even the worthiness of any questions to be considered), it is not unreasonable that he/she seeks some way of independently judging the usefulness of the statement or question or poster thereof. (seeing a record of live trades is only one of many ways in which this independent judgement can be made)

The competent trader may at some point fondly recall their own pleasure and struggle, and wish to enjoy it again vicariously through the efforts of others. The key here being the efforts of others. Mentoring is a completely satisfying experience, as long as the mentor is not required to pull the learner up the hill like dead weight. Therefore, it is not unreasonable for a competent mentor to occasionally lay some little tests in front of the learner, in order to judge the amount of effort the learner is willing to expend in order to gain knowledge.

It is completely possible for a lack luster student to be completely inspired by a different mentor (different method, different style), or for a 'boring/unintelligible/unproven' mentor to be proclaimed 'brilliant' when the proper student comes along.

Peers are just looking for a relaxing atmosphere where they enjoy trading or learning with other traders who are at a similar point in their quest to trade profitably. They may share ideas, or offer advice when asked, but they do not expect themselves or their trading buddies to be required to alter their actions in order for the relationship to continue.

Even when no money changes hands, there is an expenditure of time and effort in any relationship. Frankly, I am old enough that time is more important to me than money. Personally, I feel fortunate to have received much in the way of penetrating questions, helpful advice, and plenty of good natured ribbing along my path, and am grateful to those who bothered to engage me in the process.

JO
 

SOCRATES

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4,966 134
dbphoenix said:
Since you elect to continue this in public, I'll respond to some of this.



Stating that my posts are "theoretical hot air" is not what I'd call a testimonial.



No, you don't have the faintest idea what I'm talking about when I say that you never made the slightest effort to come up with a trading plan that would provide a point of departure, which is why you're where you are. A "tutor" relationship with me (if you choose to call it that) would yield a consistently profitable trading plan IF you had chosen to do any of the work. You chose not to. This is not my problem.

Your comment that the trader should determine just "what the tutor is actually offering to do for them" pretty much sums up what it is you're looking for, whether you recognize that or not.

Db

And to whatever moderator is hovering in the background, if you want to delete all of this or move it to Seminars & Tutors, that's fine by me. This stuff has only a tenuous connection, if any, to the subject of the thread.
I have just come into my room and seen this.

I sincererly hope this post remains exactly where it is because it provides a benchmark.

The benchmark that it provides is very simple.

An aspirant....does not know ....has no conception of the maze he is getting into when he begins to express an interest in this profession ...from the very beginning when it is still a question of curiosity and inquisitiveness progressing to getting deeper into the subject.

An aspirant....does not have and can not have a concrete idea of what it is that awaits him....and for this reason is not in a position to clearly express what he needs....not what he wants....what he NEEDS which is a very different idea altogether.

An aspirant...does not have a proper and reliable frame of reference as to what exactly is expected of him.

An aspirant...does not and can not have a proper and reliable frame of reference as to what he can expect of his tutor or mentor.

An aspirant is an aspirant because he aspires....he....through a fog of ....ambition....confusion....an inability to express....an uncertainty of what is expected of him....a condition of not precisely knowing....is in a very vulnerable condition.

A tutor has a very great responsibility...huge...to lead the aspirant through a carefully structured process of academic learning to start with ....to properly prepare him in purely mechanical terms....in mechanical theory...in limited mechanical practice.

This has to be a very carefully graded progression to take into account the propensities of the aspirant.....because each and every aspirant is different and brings DIFFERENT INABILITIES.

As the gradient becomes more defined....minor inabilities surface....the tutor does his best to get the aspirant to eradicate these inabilities.

But the learning curve gets steeper ...and as it gets steeper...from an academic viewpoint...it gets tougher....nothing has happened yet...the aspirant is still safe...in theory...has not flown the nest yet.

But in the next stages...a radical change has to take place...in which the aspirant now has to take control of himself and what he is doing....the stabilisers remain but it is a bigger bicycle with many gears and complicated controls...

There is a point at which the tutor cannot run alongside to ensure that each wobble is corrected...the aspirant has to do this for himself...

This is a very critical point in the development of a trader....and what I explained in a previous post relating to the CENTRAL CORE now comes into play..

Now this stage is critical....this is the stage at which the aspirant is able to make it or break it.

The outcome is largely out of the hands of the tutor...as the tutor cannot be him even if he wanted to....the problem for the aspirant is to resist the temptation to misdirect himself....and a lot of temptations appear in his path...one mistake..and he is off the rails...

The task of putting a derailed aspirant back on the rails is colossal....as the cause of the derailment has to be found first of all...frequently the aspirant himself is unable to correctly identify it or...insidiously he chooses to hide it from himself...it is a mind game, I tell you....

I am explaining this process this far to illustrate clearly that the aspirant is not able at any stage to properly determine the path the tutor should set for him...it is so delicate...and the difficulty is that in the latter stages it is completely abstract...therefore abruptness does not work....this process takes months...years to complete.

The whole thing hinges around the ability of the aspirant to let go of his EGO...and to submit...and to develop a new central core.

The tutor needs to have a complete mastery of the topic from A to Z and beyond...

The aspirant needs to submit ....but the risk is that he may corrupt himself through impatience, greed, ego, sloth or a variety of problems, including the ability to get very angry very easily.

All of these problems are again INVISIBLE...because they are INTANGIBLES that have to be experienced to be understood......it is not unlike bomb disposal.

You cannot expect everything to be cut and dried...and when it is not...for every question to be answered with another question...you must by now realise this is very frustrating tor anyone trying to learn anything...let alone something as complicated as this...and...about themselves at the same time...because.... if trading can be described as anything .....the best description would be the ultimate journey of self discovery.

That is why so many fail and so few succeed. That is why I refuse to teach anyone anymore, as my patience for the purpose is finally exhausted. I have redirected my reserves of patience in the direction of my trading, selfish and self centred as that may be viewed to be.
 

dbphoenix

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JumpOff said:
The beginner has a goal - to find out if it is possible to consistently make profits by trading, and to find out if he/she has the temperament to do what is necessary to achieve this. There is a plethora of information available, so the task is how to weed out the grain from the chaff? Since the beginner has no experience to enable him/her to judge the worthiness of any statement, (or even the worthiness of any questions to be considered), it is not unreasonable that he/she seeks some way of independently judging the usefulness of the statement or question or poster thereof. (seeing a record of live trades is only one of many ways in which this independent judgement can be made)
You raise a number of points, and I agree with all of them, except perhaps for the above.

In an effort to keep at least one foot on the thread, I'll point out that author of the article attempts to address this issue. He states, in part, that a superior whatever does not necessarily make a superior coach (and, again, I'm intentionally using the word "coach" given the article for which this thread exists). Therefore, even if one were to limit himself to those traders who can and are willing to demonstrate "superiority" (whatever that might be), there is absolutely no assurance that the superior trader will be able to coach the coachee into anything approaching an equivalent superiority. Since the disappointed coachee will likely then storm through the boards declaiming that so-and-so is a fraud and a cheat and a thief blah blah, I have to hand it to anybody who really trades, e.g., Richard, who is willing to make themselves vulnerable to this nonsense.

As for "live" trading and trading rooms, every experienced trader knows how to fake this. He's been in the rooms. He's seen it done. Which is one reason why he spends so little time, if any, in rooms (another is that he has trading to do).

However, neither trading rooms nor the alternate -- seeking out those who are willing to provide audited results (posted results are useless) that cover a number of years (a few weeks or a few months are equally useless) -- are not the only roads that are open to the newcomer. Assuming that he is reasonably well-educated and that he is reasonably intelligent, he can ask himself a few simple questions: does this make any sense? is this reasonable? why is this person offering to provide me with a system (indicator, software package, seminar, course yada yada yada) that will make me a millionaire in only minutes a day for only three payments of $199? or via a seminar for $5000? And even if the newcomer is able to luck onto one of these gems, what makes him think that however the trader trades will be suited to him? Does he honestly believe that this trader has a bullet-proof and fool (literally) -proof system that any idiot can implement to achieve those riches?

There is an enormous amount of just plain grunt work that has to be done before one is ready to even begin to think about trading: what is a stock? how are stocks traded? where? when? in what amounts? what do they cost? how do I buy them? who do I buy them from? and on and on and on.

Then there is the business of charts and all those lines and what they all "mean". Do patterns matter? does that make sense? Why do they occur? Why do they occur where they do? Why do they sometimes end in one result and some other result at other times?

And does buy high sell higher make sense? why not buy low sell high? Who's right? Who's wrong? Is it necessary that somebody tell me? Can I find out for myself? Can I study a few hundred or a few thousand charts and figure it out? Or am I helpless?

When I started, I wasn't a member of what has come to be known as The Gimmees. I read, I studied, I observed, I analyzed. I never paid anybody to teach me anything. I taught myself. At least then. It wasn't until I made the switch to futures that I spent some time with a professional trader (in her room, which was at that time extremely reasonable) and just watched and listened for a while. And then I left to go off on my own again.

Trading results, even "live" trading results, mean nothing. Nor do they mean anything even if the newcomer wants nothing more than to learn how to trade just like the Trader trades since the Trader may not be able to teach for beans. How does one separate the wheat from the chaff? Read, study, observe, do the work, apply one's intelligence and common sense. If one is incapable of doing any of that, then trading may not be the best course for him to follow.

Db
 
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PKFFW

Established member
535 140
SOCRATES said:
You have got it back to front as well, for a not dissimilar reason, being your perspective is an external one also.

The problem as I have described very clearly in the above posts, is not that any of this is particularly difficult....but it becomes an impossible mission for many ordinary, decent, hardworking people for the reasons I explain, in the simplest manner possible.

The problem is only one of a cluster of problems but it is the most significant one, and the one that has to be dealt with first.

In order to succeed at this you have to be able to willfully change your central core.....but fortunately only for the purpose of trading.....you cannot approach all of this with the way you are built....because the way it is constructed is guaranteed to defeat you if you persist.......therefore you have to change to deal with it....you.... cannot expect it to change to accomodate you..... or me..... as ordinary persons....this willingness to change is a glass wall you yourself have to cross...but for the great majority....it is not viewed as either necessary or even desirable.....

I am reminded of a bumble bee that found its way into my conservatory yesterday....there were four open windows.....I watched for a few minutes as it persisted in banging its head against the glass panes and refused to approach the open windows.....just like a stubborn trader, a prisoner of his own humanity would do...until I considered it had gone on long enough.....I got hold of a drinking glass and a sheet of paper and trapped it and put it outside....whereupon it happilly flew away with a loud buzz....the bumble bee does not have the reasoning powers of human beings.....so we can excuse it...but not humans in persisting with what does not work.

I hope you can now begin to percieve how it is practically impossible to graft, to transmute, certain skills.....I am not referring to what is mechanical of course...I am referring to what is intangible....abstract....invisible...as a consequence of a wilful,self imposed resolve to modify or change habitual ingrained behaviour.
So let me get this straight..........

I comment that sometimes the best doer is not necessarily the best teacher and sometimes the best teacher is not necessarily the best doer. That was the sole point of my post. I in no way suggested any other point. Whether you wish to admit it or not, that statement is undeniable fact. Be it in life, sports or trading it matters not.

From that you claim my perspective is "an external one" and is back to front. You further imply that I am unwilling/unable to change what I need to change in order to be a success at trading.

How do you reach those conclusions? What in my post leads you to imply that I can not make a success of trading? What leads you to conclude my point was "back to front" and coming from an "external" perspective?

Cheers,
PKFFW
 

PKFFW

Established member
535 140
SOCRATES said:
The reason ? It has been proved to me repeatedly that traders are born and not made.
Interesting.

You have written quite extensively about the need to rewire the inner core. To create an inner core dedicated only to trading. To change how one thinks and perceives and, indeed, the very essence of who one is. You admonish the masses about your perception of their inability to do this. You proclaim your proficiency in having done all this and thus being a superior trader.

Then you go and contradict your entire premise by saying traders are born and not made. If a trader is born and not made where does the need to change one's very being in order to succeed come into it?

So which is it?

Cheers,
PKFFW
 
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