Article The Value of Coaching And The Difficulty in Finding One

PKFFW

Established member
535 140
I have trained in the Martial Arts for many years now. I've had a few teachers in my time and noticed that it is not always the best Martial Artist that is the best teacher. A good artist does not necessarily make a good teacher and a good teacher is not necessarily the best artist. I think it can be the same in trading.

It is interesting to me that many are derisive of those who write trading books, saying such things as "if they were so good why wouldn't they just make lots of money trading and not bother writing the book?". When it comes to mentors/coaches the prevailing thought seems to be that you must be a great trader to be a good mentor. So the question must be "why would they bother mentoring if they were so good? why not just trade to make money?" Seems like a double standard. Maybe the author can make a great system but doesn't have the psychology to trade it himself. Maybe the mentor has the knack of bringing out the best in others but doesn't have the perspective to bring it out in himself.

Ideally a mentor would be a highly successful trader and also very skilled in teaching the art of trading. However, in many cases one may have a good grasp of the skills needed but be unable, for a variety of reasons, to utilise those skills themselves.

Just my 2 cents anyways.

Cheers,
PKFFW
 

fxmarkets

Established member
834 50
I just have a slight query over the rules of engagement that one would be coached in, the technicals I dont feel that being coached with "any" knowledge found here or there would be the best way forward, maybe that is possible with sports etc where there is a "rule book of play " to work with, allowing a performance coach to extract better attitudes,awareness,performance, from the players as it were because they had predefined rules of the game , but with trading?

Ive not read anything anywhere that suggests "Online Coaches For Hire" in general have any deeper insight into the "trading environment" The essence of the market, is not visible, so how could one coach, teach, instruct, mentor, etc. ? well they can and do, but the sort people need ,you wont find them in Yellow Pages or yell.com is it?

the point ive waffled on to reach i would sum up as

"Coaching to whose rulebook?" thats very important....

Fx.
 

dbphoenix

Legendary member
6,952 1,244
I realize that the last post on this thread is three months old, but I was referred to the thread and was somewhat surprised that the final question was left hanging.

As a precondition, I won't get into coach vs mentor. That's a discussion of its own. For this, I'll limit myself to the term "coach".

What one gets out of coaching depends in large part what he expected to get out of it when he signed up. If he expected to be told "how to trade", i.e., buy this, buy here, sell there, short this, cover there, then he is going to be disappointed if his results don't match what was advertised. In this case, the question posed in the previous post -- "whose rulebook" -- is in fact an important one.

However, if the coach takes the position that the purpose of the coaching is to teach the coachee to implement the coachee's own rulebook, then the goal is not so much "I'm going to teach you how to trade (according to what the coach thinks trading is)" but rather "I'm going to teach you how to stick to your own plan and achieve the results that your plan states that you ought to be reaching". If the coachee's plan is inadequate, it's up to the coach to teach the coachee how to fix the problems. If the coachee has no plan at all, it's up to the coach to teach him how to develop one. Thus, however the coach him/herself trades is unimportant.

One could argue, in fact, that it may not be necessary for the coach to trade at all. This will appall a number of people, but those who seek to exit the ranks of the needy and become independent traders would do well to think carefully about just what it is that they want.
 

LevII

Established member
579 16
Searching for a coach or mentor

It must be correct that there are people out there who for some reason cannot or no longer can 'do' but can teach and vice versa. For example, in fields of phsical endeavour advancing age reduces the ability to perform. There must similarly come a time when a trader no longer can or wants to sit for hours in front of a computer screen. From what I am told, Tom Williams is such a person - an accomplished trader and tutor whose eyesight is no longer good but is still willing, from time to time, to coach others.

There is, however, a particular breed of coach / mentor that frequents bulletin boards and, while promoting himself as a successful professional trader able and willing (for a fee) to teach the student to trade as he does, steadfastly declines to produce hard evidence of his success as a trader.

How does the interested prospective student approach that?
 

SOCRATES

Veteren member
4,966 134
LevII said:
It must be correct that there are people out there who for some reason cannot or no longer can 'do' but can teach and vice versa. For example, in fields of phsical endeavour advancing age reduces the ability to perform. There must similarly come a time when a trader no longer can or wants to sit for hours in front of a computer screen. From what I am told, Tom Williams is such a person - an accomplished trader and tutor whose eyesight is no longer good but is still willing, from time to time, to coach others.

There is, however, a particular breed of coach / mentor that frequents bulletin boards and, while promoting himself as a successful professional trader able and willing (for a fee) to teach the student to trade as he does, steadfastly declines to produce hard evidence of his success as a trader.

How does the interested prospective student approach that?
I am going to enjoy this immensely....and because it is the weekend, I am going to indulge myself.

What happens is that someone can be shown.....in the greatest detail....and with meticulous care...and with endless patience...and with all the goodwill in the world .....and more...and beyond more....and beyond what can be expected from anyone....how everything fits and where and the reasons for it...and....at an academic level it can be understood......now here is the problem..........

The problem emanates from the inability of the tutee to do several things.....the first is to embrace all of it....and not pick out just the comfortable bits and the nice bits and the easy bits....but to embrace all of it....and to committ it to memory in such a way that it is at his fingertips when the knowledge needs to be regurgitated immediately....but for starters.....people are not willing to do this because at an academic level already it is hard work for them....but they pretend....which is a form of cheating....because all the while this process is going on...they are seeking a shortcut...that does not exist....and then the tuteee comes up to the first hurdle....

The first hurdle is that even if academically how everything fits and where and under what circumstances is absorbed .....the first cracks in the inabilities that the tutee carries....posssibly unconsciously and possibly not...begin to show...to make themselves manifest.....that the tutee even at this early stage is unwilling or unable to rectify....we are not talking of character yet...we are talking of basic abilities....mental arithmetic...visualisation....imagination...cognition.....and so on...

Then the second hurdle appears .....in all of this process there are 5 in total....so it is a hell of an odessey.....and this hurdle tests the tutee's character....the central core of himself.....and his ability to confront.....and deal with his inabilities to modify them....now already we are in a mire.....because even with these basic requirements the tutee is reluctant to believe it is necesssary....so there is a resistance to master and overcome inabilities...

Then the third hurdle appears......here the tutee comes face to face not with the market and what the market is able to deliver...but with himself as a person...."in it".....and not "at it" any more....and this is the determining hurdle as to whether the fourth and fifth can be overcome.....and this hurdle....which prevents the tutee to assume full self governance of the highest order.....to act properly as the market demands from all of us....is what decides whether success in the offing is a possibility for him or not....It is not the tutor or mentor who decides this....but the tutee himself.....as what the tutee "thinks" ....is outside the aegis of anyone else but himself...and therefore not controlllable.....the tutor is not able to think for his tutee any more.....and even if he wanted to could not do it...

Now you see.....after all the mechanical aspect is explained....the rest is abstract.....and success rests upon the character of the individual.....and what mental faculties he brings to bear upon the task in hand....and mental work is invisible....because of this invisibility.....which cannot be adequately illustrated like you would explain the working parts of a carburettor in a car for example....because of this invisibility....which has a quality....but an intangible one....it can be recognised.....as to who has it and who has not.

It is that simple.....and yet it isn't....and for many decent ordinary harworking people it is impossible....which is the tragedy .

 
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SOCRATES

Veteren member
4,966 134
mr.marcus said:
.........100% truth socco...but as you know already reality can hurt our pride..pride now there's a barrier....so therefore i can see the above to be painful in its brutal honesty ....and what is more brutal in its honesty than trading....so instead of the above being taken as a very valuable lesson.....it will be dismissed as rudeness or erased even...fantasy is a far more comfortable place to live ifor those who are not prepared to face themselves...their own short comings....those who are prepared to do so at least have a chance of finding success ...

cheers mark j

.
Yes exactly.

Of course when individuals are unable or unwilling to do the things they need to do in order to become successful as a consequence of their egos getting in the way of them being able to submit....but not submittance in a self deprecating or damaging way...but submission to the eradication of ego in trading....the result is failure....but the problem is so easy to solve..

.But individuals resolutely resist in solving it ...then this ego they have....causes them to respond to the problem they face with solutions that in trading terms are unacceptable....because the rules of engagement do not make allowances for such frailties....then as a consequence...because an inability or an unwillingness to submit....leads to frustration...envy...anger....and a shift of blame.....all this can be avoided by the individual himself.....but it reinforces the axiom of survival of the fittest....now...the fact that the thinking process, the character aspect, the self governance aspect are invisible makes it even more difficult for the ego to accept ....and to consent to modify.
 

SOCRATES

Veteren member
4,966 134
PKFFW said:
I have trained in the Martial Arts for many years now. I've had a few teachers in my time and noticed that it is not always the best Martial Artist that is the best teacher. A good artist does not necessarily make a good teacher and a good teacher is not necessarily the best artist. I think it can be the same in trading.

It is interesting to me that many are derisive of those who write trading books, saying such things as "if they were so good why wouldn't they just make lots of money trading and not bother writing the book?". When it comes to mentors/coaches the prevailing thought seems to be that you must be a great trader to be a good mentor. So the question must be "why would they bother mentoring if they were so good? why not just trade to make money?" Seems like a double standard. Maybe the author can make a great system but doesn't have the psychology to trade it himself. Maybe the mentor has the knack of bringing out the best in others but doesn't have the perspective to bring it out in himself.

Ideally a mentor would be a highly successful trader and also very skilled in teaching the art of trading. However, in many cases one may have a good grasp of the skills needed but be unable, for a variety of reasons, to utilise those skills themselves.

Just my 2 cents anyways.

Cheers,
PKFFW
You have got it back to front as well, for a not dissimilar reason, being your perspective is an external one also.

The problem as I have described very clearly in the above posts, is not that any of this is particularly difficult....but it becomes an impossible mission for many ordinary, decent, hardworking people for the reasons I explain, in the simplest manner possible.

The problem is only one of a cluster of problems but it is the most significant one, and the one that has to be dealt with first.

In order to succeed at this you have to be able to willfully change your central core.....but fortunately only for the purpose of trading.....you cannot approach all of this with the way you are built....because the way it is constructed is guaranteed to defeat you if you persist.......therefore you have to change to deal with it....you.... cannot expect it to change to accomodate you..... or me..... as ordinary persons....this willingness to change is a glass wall you yourself have to cross...but for the great majority....it is not viewed as either necessary or even desirable.....

I am reminded of a bumble bee that found its way into my conservatory yesterday....there were four open windows.....I watched for a few minutes as it persisted in banging its head against the glass panes and refused to approach the open windows.....just like a stubborn trader, a prisoner of his own humanity would do...until I considered it had gone on long enough.....I got hold of a drinking glass and a sheet of paper and trapped it and put it outside....whereupon it happilly flew away with a loud buzz....the bumble bee does not have the reasoning powers of human beings.....so we can excuse it...but not humans in persisting with what does not work.

I hope you can now begin to percieve how it is practically impossible to graft, to transmute, certain skills.....I am not referring to what is mechanical of course...I am referring to what is intangible....abstract....invisible...as a consequence of a wilful,self imposed resolve to modify or change habitual ingrained behaviour.
 

Mr. Charts

Legendary member
7,364 1,181
Particularly wise words from mr.marcus and SOCRATES, REAL traders.
There is some relevant material on another thread which some might find interesting:
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/showthread.php?t=10573&page=4&pp=30
Posts # 111 to 121 are worth reading, imho, especially #114 and 115.
There has long been an intermittent campaign against me from those two or three individuals. It has been both on board comments and sometimes by anonymous vicious emails. I suppose it's the modern equivalent of poison pen letters; hiding like cowards behind their nicks/multi-nicks.
Recognise them by their negative contributions - they never post their own trades.......
I suggest those individuals get themselves a life, perhaps by starting with:
http://www.psychnet-uk.com/dsm_iv/obsessive_compulsive_disorder.htm
Help is available for those sufferers. One of them has actually received professional help and is struggling to get better. Good for him, I genuinely wish him the best for the future. And I am happy to forgive and forget everything he has done.
Richard
 

dbphoenix

Legendary member
6,952 1,244
LevII said:
It must be correct that there are people out there who for some reason cannot or no longer can 'do' but can teach and vice versa. For example, in fields of phsical endeavour advancing age reduces the ability to perform. There must similarly come a time when a trader no longer can or wants to sit for hours in front of a computer screen. From what I am told, Tom Williams is such a person - an accomplished trader and tutor whose eyesight is no longer good but is still willing, from time to time, to coach others.

There is, however, a particular breed of coach / mentor that frequents bulletin boards and, while promoting himself as a successful professional trader able and willing (for a fee) to teach the student to trade as he does, steadfastly declines to produce hard evidence of his success as a trader.

How does the interested prospective student approach that?
How does the interested prospective student approach that? He doesn't. He runs.

For one thing, the sort of coach I referred to in my post does not "teach the student to trade as he does", though if that's the sort of coach you want, you don't have to go searching for one. All you have to do is stand still and they'll be all over you.

If you or anyone you know is looking for a coach, I suggest you prowl the boards, particularly this one, and focus on those who are doing the work in one form or another rather than just talking about it. Read what they say. Assess what they do. Even with all the caveats that accompany hindsight postings, you'll be able to tell over time who knows what they're doing and who doesn't. And if they've been posting for a while, there will be archives you can study, just in case you're for some reason in a hurry.

Approach one or more of these people. Find out if they're interested in coaching. Ask how much they'd charge for it and what the terms would be (you might find that one or more of them will be willing to coach you -- up to a point -- for nothing). You're as likely to find a good coach this way -- perhaps more likely -- than by answering the siren call of somebody who struts around the boards bragging about what a great trader he is while providing no evidence whatsoever that he can do what he claims to be able to do.

There is also the issue of just why you're interested in the subject in the first place. Are you (and I don't mean "you", personally) completely new to the whole thing and don't even know what a stop is? Or are you reasonably experienced but have somehow become stuck and need help getting unstuck? You may be interested in a relationship that could go on for months, or longer. Or you may be interested only in something short-term that will serve to get you through your current troubles.

The responsibility, therefore, lies not just with the coach. The coachee must know what it is he wants. If he's looking for a successful trader to copy, then he's likely setting himself up for disappointment. He will expect something to "work" for him, the method, the system, the coach, the whatever. If the trader is unsuccessful, it will be because the method or system or whatever "didn't work", and the coach becomes a charlatan. The responsibility for success, in other words, becomes someone else's and has nothing to do with the trader's willingness to listen, to learn, to modify his own behavior, to do the work.

A smart coach will make sure that the student knows exactly what's expected of him, particularly since it will be the student who rages through the boards ranting and raving about what a cheat the coach was and how nothing he did "worked" and so on. While some coaches are able to take the money and ignore all of this, not all are as barnacled as that and would prefer not to have become involved in the relationship in the first place. If the coach-candidate therefore does not address the issue of your responsibilities, you may be looking at someone who's in it just for the money.

Db
 

SOCRATES

Veteren member
4,966 134
Mr. Charts said:
Particularly wise words from mr.marcus and SOCRATES, REAL traders.
There is some relevant material on another thread which some might find interesting:
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/showthread.php?t=10573&page=4&pp=30
Posts # 111 to 121 are worth reading, imho, especially #114 and 115.
There has long been an intermittent campaign against me from those two or three individuals. It has been both on board comments and sometimes by anonymous vicious emails. I suppose it's the modern equivalent of poison pen letters; hiding like cowards behind their nicks/multi-nicks.
Recognise them by their negative contributions - they never post their own trades.......
I suggest those individuals get themselves a life, perhaps by starting with:
http://www.psychnet-uk.com/dsm_iv/obsessive_compulsive_disorder.htm
Help is available for those sufferers. One of them has actually received professional help and is struggling to get better. Good for him, I genuinely wish him the best for the future. And I am happy to forgive and forget everything he has done.
Richard
You know how I mention there are five hurdles......you agree....between each of these hurdles there is a ditch, so deep .....as if it were an abyss...it is as if they exist to prevent the unsuited to progress...but these ditches are not technical, not tangible, and not market related at all....they are there for everyone to overcome as part of the total obstacle course.

The ditches are the intangible parts of trading.

Every detractor is a detractor because of being trapped in one of these ditches.

The question is that ....like the Grand National....runners that fall into the ditch...can get up and continue to run along....but no longer in the race itself....it is only the runners complete with jockeys who have jumped all the fences properly and cleared the ditches that have a chance to get to the winning post....none of this is the fault of the trainer.

The skill ...is to not only clear the fences....but to clear the ditches as well.

You go to extreme lengths to counterargue against the also rans, whereas I have learnt the pointlessness of it.....no amount of proof will satisfy them...no amount of reasoning.....no variety of examples to illustrate points will serve....until such time....as the penny drops for them....that we are all presented with the same facts at the same time....so the answer must be ...not that all of this is perverse and is out to get us....but how we ourselves deal with it as individuals by making the effort to properly harmonise.

This is the really difficult part.....because as I explained...it is invisible, intangible...

Of the several hundred trades of yours that I have closely examined....I cannot fault a single one of them....I am not telling you this to give you a swelled head or to curry favour ...but because it is a fact.

Now consider how difficult it is for those in the ditch to replicate .....impossible isn't it ?

Therefore you are bound to get vitriol.....which in a way is a backhanded compliment....so I should not worry too much about it and carry on....just like a handful of us do.

You will never recieve vitriol from successful traders....you will only recieve it from those who set themselves up to fail....as a consequence of a bitter resentment against achievement.

My Compliments To You, and Very Good Wishes for Continued Success and a Sparkling Performance.

Kind Regards.




 

charliechan

Experienced member
1,008 119
havent really followed this thread, but heres my 2 penny worth:

a coach teaching anyone 'market methods', set-ups, strategies etc is of very limited value. the ever changing cycles of markets ensure this. i could teach someone some magic candle stick pattern that i have made zillions from, but there is no guarantee that it will still be working this time next month. if it were that easy, then....

a good example of this could be the spread trading of interest rate futures. there are so many scalpers trying this now in arcades across europe, that it is becoming very difficult i hear. this is an example of everyone betting on a favourite - or some horse with a well known positive overlay, and the public pricing the odds out of favour. the edge soon evaporates. changing cycles. neiderhoffer has written much about this.

a coach needs to do 2 things: teach you how to find your own edge rather than teach you theirs, and also coach you in survival tactics so you can cope with the trading environment as it it quite different from any other occupation.



i have spoken.

:cool:
 
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SOCRATES

Veteren member
4,966 134
charliechan said:
havent really followed this thread, but heres my 2 penny worth:

a coach teaching anyone 'market methods', set-ups, strategies etc is of very limited value. the ever changing cycles of markets ensure this. i could teach someone some magic candle stick pattern that i have made zillions from, but there is no guarantee that it will still be working this time next month. if it were that easy, then....

a good example of this could be the spread trading of interest rate futures. there are so many scalpers trying this now in arcades across europe, that it is becoming very difficult i hear. this is an example of everyone betting on a favourite - or some horse with a well known positive overlay, and the public pricing the odds out of favour. the edge soon evaporates. changing cycles. neiderhoffer has written much about this.

a coach needs to do 2 things: teach you how to find your own edge rather than teach you theirs, and also coach you in survival tactics so you can cope with the trading environment as it it quite different from any other occupation.

i have spoken.

:cool:
Yes, and I have listened to what you have to say.....

But you omit to mention what I have explained in detail about INABILITIES that is the most important part of the excercise....whereas you are simply referring to the MECHANICS.

It is the INABILITIES that give all the grief.....and nothing else.

And I will tell you something else while I am at it shall I ?

To quote a member of my group who says:~

"The difficulty is that when they first appear they do not carry labels on their foreheads....that is the difficulty"....."If we could solve that ....we could solve everything".
 

dbphoenix

Legendary member
6,952 1,244
charliechan said:
havent really followed this thread, but heres my 2 penny worth:

a coach teaching anyone 'market methods', set-ups, strategies etc is of very limited value. the ever changing cycles of markets ensure this. i could teach someone some magic candle stick pattern that i have made zillions from, but there is no guarantee that it will still be working this time next month. if it were that easy, then....

a good example of this could be the spread trading of interest rate futures. there are so many scalpers trying this now in arcades across europe, that it is becoming very difficult i hear. this is an example of everyone betting on a favourite - or some horse with a well known positive overlay, and the public pricing the odds out of favour. the edge soon evaporates. changing cycles. neiderhoffer has written much about this.

a coach needs to do 2 things: teach you how to find your own edge rather than teach you theirs, and also coach you in survival tactics so you can cope with the trading environment as it it quite different from any other occupation.



i have spoken.

:cool:
I agree. One of the more common problems I hear about and read about is the inability to adapt (though the trader may not recognize it as such), particularly over the past two to three years. You don't learn how to do that simply by copying somebody's method (unless, of course, the core of the method is knowing when and how to adapt).

Db
 

SOCRATES

Veteren member
4,966 134
"Circular Avoidance to Confront and Properly Rectify "

.....Like a stubborn...and....stingy shipowner ......who sends a ship with a really wonky boiler..... into drydock....and insists .....it must not be replaced...but instead...well you know....sort of...fixed...:LOL:
 
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charliechan

Experienced member
1,008 119
SOCRATES said:
Yes, and I have listened to what you have to say.....

But you omit to mention what I have explained in detail about INABILITIES that is the most important part of the excercise....whereas you are simply referring to the MECHANICS.

It is the INABILITIES that give all the grief.....and nothing else.

And I will tell you something else while I am at it shall I ?

To quote a member of my group who says:~

"The difficulty is that when they first appear they do not carry labels on their foreheads....that is the difficulty"....."If we could solve that ....we could solve everything".

at first, i was about to say that i dont like to focus on inabilities. i prefer to focus upon the positives, what can be done, not what cant be done.

but then i saw the post mr m. responede to, and i have a better grasp now of what you mean. thats what you get if you butt into a conversation without fully appreciating what is being discussed.

during the world cup, there was much criticism of our ability to play 'set pieces'. i know little about football, but i got the impression they were talking about the mechanical parts of playing football. how to position yourself before a corner kick, throw in, etc.

the mechanical element as you know must be mastered first before the other bit can be approached. ronaldo would agree with this i think, as would brazilian street kids who reach roony & owen levels at the age of about 4 or 5 as anyone who has been near a favellah(spelling?) will attest to.

also, a very good living can still be made from the mechanical phase, as the interest rate spread traders found out, and also the endland football team - who according to linaker, have yet to master the mechanical stage as 2nd nature.

but yes, there are hurdles to cross in order to get past the mechanical stages. i am not there yet myself, but every day i hope to get closer.

the mechanical pathway of course is well documented, despite most still struggling. the route to the intuitive level which is where im guessing youre going with this however is not. this is why you only 'indulge' with steps 1-3, but purposefully omit steps 4-5 (probably as a defence mechanism inorder to avoid the barrage of insults that would arrive if you were to do so). people as you know will plead and beg for steps 4-5, while stuck on step 2. we both know you will not give steps 4 &5. all though i do know that, i kind of get the impression they are to be found by the individual, and not yours to give in the first place.

maybe if the difficult steps of 1-3 could be solved with something as simple as a mirror, maybe 4&5 can be solved with a simpler household object???? ?a potatoe peeler perhaps?
 

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