Article The Value of Coaching And The Difficulty in Finding One

LevII

Established member
579 16
Gosh!

Many pages ago I posed the question how does the interested prospective student approach the coach / mentor who promotes himself as a successful professional trader able and willing (for a fee) to teach the student to trade as he does but steadfastly declines to produce hard evidence of his success as a trader.

Amazing how much interesting material such an enquiry can generate.
 
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PKFFW

Established member
535 140
mr.marcus said:
....yes the point you make is of course equally valid that a good coach doesnt necessarily have to be the best trader..or in fact trading at all....and i see you also acknowledge my point that those who know the real deal as far as knowledge in any given field can tell those who do not.so lets combine the 2...what if the mentor is well meaning....and a good at presenting information and helping to bring out the most in pupil etc....BUT.....the information is 100% wrong......they are unwittingly taking them down dead ends as far as learning..and this can be seen by those who know the deal....then you have a dangerous situation......

...i wonder how this situation could be addressed without causing offence....a tricky one to deal with especially for those who know the deal and would like to highlight this situation for the sake of the student....do they make it apparent and risk appearing to be dismissive and confrontational even when approached in the most diplomatic of ways.......reason being not wanting others to end up on weed laden paths.......or do they keep quite?a no win situation....if you keep quite down the line people when they find out say....why didnt you tell me....if you tell them earlier they may tell you to but out....hehe....anyways....

cheers mark j
One could address it by simply saying something along the lines of........

"Alot of well meaning (and possibly not so well meaning) coaches/guru's do not know what they are talking about and hence would not be the best person to learn from. Therefore, to the best of your ability, do your due diligence and attempt to find someone who does know what they are talking about. Should you make a mistake and end up with the former rather than the latter, chalk it up to experience and move on to another coach/mentor or on to some other way of learning all together."

In no way is that a personal attack. It warns the novice of the pitfalls. It gets the message across.

On the other hand, posting something such as "your remarks are so off the wall as to be laughable" and "you are pontificating about things you have no experience in" are personally abusive. Further to that, ridiculing someone for making a post about something you assume they have no knowledge about is hypocritical when you are doing the very same thing by making an assumption about their knowledge in that field. That was my point.

Cheers,
PKFFW
 

TheBramble

Legendary member
8,395 1,170
post 70 above by Mr.Marcus edit by barjon said:
Last edited by barjon : Today at 08:36 AM. Reason: deleted the quoted post which itself had been deleted
Unless the quoted post was deleted due to a transgression of site guidelines, why was Mr. Marcus' quote of that post also deleted?

This current fad of doing this unnecessary housekeeping leads to an irritating loss of context.

If somebody posts and subsequently chooses to delete that post - fine. But having posted it and someone else responds to it, why is it felt necessary to cascade the process?
 

barjon

Legendary member
10,358 1,591
TheBramble said:
Unless the quoted post was deleted due to a transgression of site guidelines, why was Mr. Marcus' quote of that post also deleted?

This current fad of doing this unnecessary housekeeping leads to an irritating loss of context.

If somebody posts and subsequently chooses to delete that post - fine. But having posted it and someone else responds to it, why is it felt necessary to cascade the process?
Tony

Because I thought mr.m's post had validity in it's own right and was not out of context with what had gone before. The deleted post was deleted because it concentrated on an earlier post that had been deleted and readers would, therefore, be somewhat confused.

All this sounds as if I have been deletion mad , but it was only two early ones that were a bit personal. Other edits/deletions stemmed from that initial action.

You could argue that I was too quick to pounce on early signs of personal "attacks" but I think the quality of discussion that transpired, free of such disruptive asides, made that early attention worthwhile. I hope you agree.

good trading

jon
 

SOCRATES

Veteren member
4,966 134
PKFFW said:
One could address it by simply saying something along the lines of........

"Alot of well meaning (and possibly not so well meaning) coaches/guru's do not know what they are talking about and hence would not be the best person to learn from. Therefore, to the best of your ability, do your due diligence and attempt to find someone who does know what they are talking about. Should you make a mistake and end up with the former rather than the latter, chalk it up to experience and move on to another coach/mentor or on to some other way of learning all together."

In no way is that a personal attack. It warns the novice of the pitfalls. It gets the message across.

On the other hand, posting something such as "your remarks are so off the wall as to be laughable" and "you are pontificating about things you have no experience in" are personally abusive. Further to that, ridiculing someone for making a post about something you assume they have no knowledge about is hypocritical when you are doing the very same thing by making an assumption about their knowledge in that field. That was my point.

Cheers,
PKFFW
The main bulk of the day's operations are complete to my satisfaction, so I have some spare time to make a comment.

I will help you understand more clearly...

Let me see...what happens is that everyone has to start somewhere.

All of us do, because no one is born an expert.

But....

It is a bit like the Grand National.Steeplechase...

It is a HUGE obstacle course in front of evereybody...and...everyone does his best.

But everyone does his best according to his own frame of reference you see..

Along this obstacle course there are lots of hurdles to be overcome, and like the jumps on the racecourse, they come in a certain order....there is order in it....and not randonimity.

All it takes is for a fall at the wrong hurdle and if you are diligent you have to start all over again from the very beginning.....but the great majority do not have the patience and stamina to do this...why ?....simple....nearly everybody gets stimulated by the idea of money...wealth...cash...banknotes....do you see ? And they forget what it is they have to do.

This distracting influence prevents people from properly putting their attention on two things :~

The first is what they have to do.

And the second, which is the most important, IS PUTTING THEIR ATTENTION ON THEIR VERY SELVES

BOTH go hand in hand, but the second is by far the most important.

On these boards, there are a handful of us who have completed the entire obstacle course.
We are able to recognise each other without the slightest difficulty.

For this reason, as a consequence of our experience, we are able to SPOT IMMEDIATELY everything that others in various stages of progress along the obstacle course are either unaware of, or have not experienced for themselves, or disregard, or do not know, or derelict.

Now this is why tutoring is so difficult.

It can never be the tutor at fault. The tutor has done all of the obstacle course.

It is the reluctance of the aspirant to complete the obstacle course as directed that causes all the problems, and all the aggravation and nuisance.

Incidentally, so that you will be able to appreciate how perverse in abstraction all of this can be, the aspirant may believe he is thinking the right things, but because thought is silent, no one gets to know until after the event....by then the horse and rider have fallen at Beecher's Brook.

I have said this before, but I am going to say it again.

The second phase in the development of a trader is the most delicate, the most difficult and the one that is fraught with the most risks.

This is because of an inbuilt reluctance to change.

Now you may think this is unnecessary.

But I promise you it is not, whether you are a mechanical trader or an intuitive, the same rules apply, because none of it is constructed for your benefit, as if it were a free orchard anyone can wander into and pick the choicest fruit at any time.
 
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SOCRATES

Veteren member
4,966 134
PKFFW said:
Interesting.

You have written quite extensively about the need to rewire the inner core. To create an inner core dedicated only to trading. To change how one thinks and perceives and, indeed, the very essence of who one is. You admonish the masses about your perception of their inability to do this. You proclaim your proficiency in having done all this and thus being a superior trader.

Then you go and contradict your entire premise by saying traders are born and not made. If a trader is born and not made where does the need to change one's very being in order to succeed come into it?

So which is it?

Cheers,
PKFFW
It is very very simple.

A few people are BORN with the innate ability to change their inner cores at will, on command without much difficulty in order to achieve some objective.

It does not matter what the objective might be, from climbing Mount Everest to becoming a Surgeon and slicing bodies open every day, to being a Soldier in battle, to being an Explorer prepared to cross Antartica on foot, to being an Astronaut going where no one has gone before or to being a Trader.

The great majority are not born with this innate ability.

They have to work much harder to do it.

But anyone who really sets his mind to do what it is they are absolutely determined to achieve can and will do it, if they truly, desperately, relentlessly, ferociously........are determined to do it, at any cost, and that.......is the difference.
Hence the few, the very few.
 
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fxmarkets

Established member
834 50
Spandex Catsuits Sales Rocket As Uphill Skiing Gains Increasing Popularity

dbphoenix said:
However, if the coach takes the position that the purpose of the coaching is to teach the coachee to implement the coachee's own rulebook, then the goal is not so much "I'm going to teach you how to trade (according to what the coach thinks trading is)" but rather "I'm going to teach you how to stick to your own plan and achieve the results that your plan states that you ought to be reaching". If the coachee's plan is inadequate, it's up to the coach to teach the coachee how to fix the problems. If the coachee has no plan at all, it's up to the coach to teach him how to develop one. Thus, however the coach him/herself trades is unimportant.

One could argue, in fact, that it may not be necessary for the coach to trade at all. This will appall a number of people, but those who seek to exit the ranks of the needy and become independent traders would do well to think carefully about just what it is that they want.
"Spandex Catsuits Sales Rocket As Uphill Skiing Gains Increasing Popularity , Leading coaches say uphill, downhill ,whats the difference lets just Ski " Some Skiers however were miffed at reading "How to ski uphill with no downside" by Hanz Flippen Floppen (3 times Self praised Uphill Practioner ) when they realised Skiing Uphill just didnt seem right , many students quit saying "Uphill Skiing is Rubbish ! hell we even fell over trying to ski uphill and started rollin downhill and begun to get a place in the finish so we knew uphill skiing might be Iffy also further reinforced by the realisation that downhill skiers won all the prizes and seemed to be smiling more".

when challenged Hanz Flippen Floppen remarked, " My students want to Ski uphill and I'll deliver that "

--------------------------------------------------------------

hmmm but would the coach still advise read all that method nonsense any will do go to a seminar or read a couple books etc i'll paste that in your plan etc... i'll teach you to exectue flawlessly whilst holding a state of total trading nirvana , then after that for a break I'll take you skiing, Uphill Of course .......

"Here is where things start getting muddled."

Yes thats right because your skiing uphill because

"All of this kind of core knowledge and understanding can, in my opinion, be learned from books, lectures, seminars, courses, etc"


hmm I dunno I assume that any student would be perhaps better placed if they used a person who could demonstrate "All that is and all that isnt and that which is neither" awareness with trading .


Too much to be looking for maybe from a coach/trainer?

"How to ski uphill with no downside" by Hanz Flippen Floppen one for T2W Bookstore maybe ?
 
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PKFFW

Established member
535 140
SOCRATES said:
The main bulk of the day's operations are complete to my satisfaction, so I have some spare time to make a comment.

I will help you understand more clearly...

Let me see...what happens is that everyone has to start somewhere.

All of us do, because no one is born an expert.

But....

It is a bit like the Grand National.Steeplechase...

It is a HUGE obstacle course in front of evereybody...and...everyone does his best.

But everyone does his best according to his own frame of reference you see..

Along this obstacle course there are lots of hurdles to be overcome, and like the jumps on the racecourse, they come in a certain order....there is order in it....and not randonimity.

All it takes is for a fall at the wrong hurdle and if you are diligent you have to start all over again from the very beginning.....but the great majority do not have the patience and stamina to do this...why ?....simple....nearly everybody gets stimulated by the idea of money...wealth...cash...banknotes....do you see ? And they forget what it is they have to do.
I am not familiar with the Grand National Steeplechase so please correct me if I am wrong. However, I know of no race ever run where if one was to stumble one had to commence the race over again in order to successfully complete the race.

Trading is no different. We will all stumble along the way. Reach obstacles that stump us for a while. Some will give up, others will work through those obstacles. The lessons learned will be with one forever. They do not have to go back and begin their training in trading all over again.
SOCRATES said:
This distracting influence prevents people from properly putting their attention on two things :~

The first is what they have to do.

And the second, which is the most important, IS PUTTING THEIR ATTENTION ON THEIR VERY SELVES

BOTH go hand in hand, but the second is by far the most important.

On these boards, there are a handful of us who have completed the entire obstacle course.
We are able to recognise each other without the slightest difficulty.

For this reason, as a consequence of our experience, we are able to SPOT IMMEDIATELY everything that others in various stages of progress along the obstacle course are either unaware of, or have not experienced for themselves, or disregard, or do not know, or derelict.
Firstly I agree that the most important thing is to focus on oneself.

Secondly, you assume everyone is running the same obstacle course. This assumption could not possibly be based in reality as we are all different. Your metaphor of the Grand National Steeplechase is flawed in that respect. It is really only your ego that puts forward the idea that the way you progressed to success in trading must be the only way for anyone to do it.

The lessons each of us must learn in order to be a successful trader will, by reason of our varied personalities, experiences, intellect and a whole host of other things, be different. We are not all lined up at the start of exactly the same obstacle course. This idea is a nonsense.

Hence your assertion that you, being a successful trader,(which by the way I have no reason to doubt and am not in any way suggesting you are not) are able to see exactly where anyone is on the road to success is simply unfounded and rather egotistical.
SOCRATES said:
Now this is why tutoring is so difficult.

It can never be the tutor at fault. The tutor has done all of the obstacle course.

It is the reluctance of the aspirant to complete the obstacle course as directed that causes all the problems, and all the aggravation and nuisance.

Incidentally, so that you will be able to appreciate how perverse in abstraction all of this can be, the aspirant may believe he is thinking the right things, but because thought is silent, no one gets to know until after the event....by then the horse and rider have fallen at Beecher's Brook.
I find it amazing that the truly successful teachers/mentors/coaches in any endeavour always seem to agree that "there is no bad student, only a bad teacher".

Maybe it is the assumption that the the tutee must complete the very same obstacle course as the tutor that is the problem. Perhaps it is the tutor who can not seem to look beyond his/her own experiences and attempt to see to the root cause of the problem in the tutee that is causing the problem. Perhaps it is the tutors lack of an effective bridging method to overcome this lack of shared experience in order to guide the tutee to success. Perhaps it is the tutors projection of his own trials and tribulations onto the tutee that is the problem.

Just some suggestions anyway..........
SOCRATES said:
I have said this before, but I am going to say it again.

The second phase in the development of a trader is the most delicate, the most difficult and the one that is fraught with the most risks.

This is because of an inbuilt reluctance to change.

Now you may think this is unnecessary.

But I promise you it is not, whether you are a mechanical trader or an intuitive, the same rules apply, because none of it is constructed for your benefit, as if it were a free orchard anyone can wander into and pick the choicest fruit at any time.
I do not think it unnecessary at all. I think it is totally necessary. I just think that your assumption that because this was the most difficult part for you, then it must be the most difficult part for everyone, is without basis in reality.

Cheers,
PKFFW
 
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PKFFW

Established member
535 140
SOCRATES said:
It is very very simple.

A few people are BORN with the innate ability to change their inner cores at will, on command without much difficulty in order to achieve some objective.

It does not matter what the objective might be, from climbing Mount Everest to becoming a Surgeon and slicing bodies open every day, to being a Soldier in battle, to being an Explorer prepared to cross Antartica on foot, to being an Astronaut going where no one has gone before or to being a Trader.

The great majority are not born with this innate ability.

They have to work much harder to do it.

But anyone who really sets his mind to do what it is they are absolutely determined to achieve can and will do it, if they truly, desperately, relentlessly, ferociously........are determined to do it, at any cost, and that.......is the difference.
Hence the few, the very few.
So really your point is not that "traders are born and not made" at all. Your point is that success at trading will be easier for some than for others due to their inherent personality.

That is as self evident as saying the sun will rise in the east tomorrow. It is a point I have previously put forward in another thread.

Cheers,
PKFFW
 

SOCRATES

Veteren member
4,966 134
Please yourself ...I cannot and will not spend all day in tit for tat argument, sorry.
 

dbphoenix

Legendary member
6,952 1,244
PKFFW said:
I find it amazing that the truly successful teachers/mentors/coaches in any endeavour always seem to agree that "there is no bad student, only a bad teacher".

Maybe it is the assumption that the the tutee must complete the very same obstacle course as the tutor that is the problem. Perhaps it is the tutor who can not seem to look beyond his/her own experiences and attempt to see to the root cause of the problem in the tutee that is causing the problem. Perhaps it is the tutors lack of an effective bridging method to overcome this lack of shared experience in order to guide the tutee to success. Perhaps it is the tutors projection of his own trials and tribulations onto the tutee that is the problem.
I'm responding to this because it seems particularly relevant to the subject of the thread, which, again, stems from the article at its head.

There comes a time in most traders' progress when they have a giant Ah Ha! moment. They've found it! This is the answer! This is what they've been looking for! And, for them, this is the way to do it. The only way to do it. Because this is what does it for them. And they effectively shut the doors to their brains.

I went through this myself at one point, which may be why I'm better able to understand those who believe that if they can't do it, it can't be done. That is, if they can't trade with pivots, then pivots are nonsense. If they can't trade with Fib, then Fib is nonsense. If they can't trade with stochastics or MA crossovers or Gann or planetary alignment, then it's all nonsense and anybody who says you can is automatically misguided at best, and at worst a scammer.

That's why I began asking my preliminary questions: what exactly do you want? what exactly are you trying to accomplish? why are you doing this? what do you want out of it? (the details are here: http://www.trade2win.com/boards/showpost.php?p=202729). The point being that if somebody truly believes that pivots are the road to riches, that's just fine. If he can make them work, more power to him. I can't show him how to make them work because I've never found a way to make them work for me. Is this my problem or the pivots' problem? Doesn't matter. What's more important is that I can show him how to find out whether or not he can make pivots work for him. If he can't, does this mean that pivots are nonsense? Not necessarily. But it does mean that he has at least regained control over his own education and his own progress. He may at some point revisit the issue of pivots and find some new way of making them work. But, in the meantime, he's free to explore other options and find something that may work even better.

For my part, I trade by price. The people who ask for my help are also for the most part interested in trading by price, or at least learning how to do so. Since the subject is trading by price, I don't get into indicators or Fib or Gann or anything else other than price (and, if appropriate, volume). Even if I were being paid to do so, there wouldn't be any point in my spending time finding out where the student is with regard to his quest to learn how to trade with MACD or ADX or whatever because I wouldn't be of much help, though I could show him how to find out for himself (I don't, however, because my interest is in trading by price, not in learning how to trade per se). A more efficient option would be to send him to somebody that knows whatever it is backwards and forwards and watch that somebody.

So, as far as the bad teacher thing, yes and no. When I taught college and was involved in teacher training (for the elementary school level), I held that view. But this presupposes a student who makes at least some small effort. If the student just sits there like a giant lump, there's not a whole lot for the teacher to work with. Yes, one could argue that it's the teacher's responsibility to find some way of motivating this giant lump. But there are practical limits, and other children, and limited time. If the student is making that effort, though, and nothing is happening with regard to the teacher/student interaction, then, yes, I suggest that this rests mostly on the teacher's shoulders. It is the teacher, after all, who is supposed to have the experience and the knowledge and the skill, if only to know to whom to send the student for help the teacher can't provide.

Ultimately, that teacher may fail, in which case he ought to be willing to refund the student's money. Sometimes these things just don't work out. But all of this presupposes at least some effort from both parties, i.e., a form of contract. Without that, the outlook is not encouraging.

Db
 

PKFFW

Established member
535 140
SOCRATES said:
Please yourself ...I cannot and will not spend all day in tit for tat argument, sorry.
Of course you can't and wont. You never do like to back up your generalistic presumptions and assumptions with any relevant facts. This is mostly due to there being nothing to back your arguments up with.

What worked for you, worked for you. This does not mean it is the only way to success. Your experiences are yours and yours alone. Your seeming inability to see that is simply your ego being unwilling to see beyond its own self importance.

You are willing to make assumptions about what I am and am not willing to do. You claim my perspective is all wrong. You suggest that your way is the only way and hence can know exactly what my problem is and where I am in the "obstacle course" that is your way. Of course you claim that for my own benefit you will not point out what my problem is though. Yet you are not willing to back any of it up. Not even willing to discuss the points you yourself raise. Why is that?

Cheers,
PKFFW
 

PKFFW

Established member
535 140
dbphoenix said:
I'm responding to this because it seems particularly relevant to the subject of the thread, which, again, stems from the article at its head............

...........But this presupposes a student who makes at least some small effort. If the student just sits there like a giant lump, there's not a whole lot for the teacher to work with.........

Ultimately, that teacher may fail, in which case he ought to be willing to refund the student's money. Sometimes these things just don't work out. But all of this presupposes at least some effort from both parties, i.e., a form of contract. Without that, the outlook is not encouraging.

Db
Yes I agree, the phrase is a generalisation. It presupposes effort upon the students' part. I would argue if there is no effort on the students' part then he/she is not truly a student.

Cheers,
PKFFW
 

SOCRATES

Veteren member
4,966 134
PKFFW said:
Of course you can't and wont. You never do like to back up your generalistic presumptions and assumptions with any relevant facts. This is mostly due to there being nothing to back your arguments up with.

What worked for you, worked for you. This does not mean it is the only way to success. Your experiences are yours and yours alone. Your seeming inability to see that is simply your ego being unwilling to see beyond its own self importance.

You are willing to make assumptions about what I am and am not willing to do. You claim my perspective is all wrong. You suggest that your way is the only way and hence can know exactly what my problem is and where I am in the "obstacle course" that is your way. Of course you claim that for my own benefit you will not point out what my problem is though. Yet you are not willing to back any of it up. Not even willing to discuss the points you yourself raise. Why is that?

Cheers,

PKFFW
Because I have laid it all out in very great detail and very clearly indeed.

And because I am not interested in engaging in any further tit for tat argument, as I have more important and satisfying things to do.

And because you bore me to tears, frankly.
 

sandpiper

Well-known member
458 54
PKFFW said:
Of course you can't and wont. You never do like to back up your generalistic presumptions and assumptions with any relevant facts. This is mostly due to there being nothing to back your arguments up with.

What worked for you, worked for you. This does not mean it is the only way to success. Your experiences are yours and yours alone. Your seeming inability to see that is simply your ego being unwilling to see beyond its own self importance.

You are willing to make assumptions about what I am and am not willing to do. You claim my perspective is all wrong. You suggest that your way is the only way and hence can know exactly what my problem is and where I am in the "obstacle course" that is your way. Of course you claim that for my own benefit you will not point out what my problem is though. Yet you are not willing to back any of it up. Not even willing to discuss the points you yourself raise. Why is that?

Cheers,
PKFFW
PKFFW,

I'm struggling to see why you're bothering since you are obviously on a hiding to nothing ;)

One of the difficulties here of course is that different people have different ideas of what success means. There are a great many levels of accomplishment between master and **** wit. My own experience is that under normal circumstances, those at the top of the tree rarely, if ever, have cause to see things from the perspective of those of us lower down, but then why should they? Why should they be asked to contemplate any definition of success other than their own? Why should they be called upon explain any route to success other than the one they took?

The sharp-end of the financial services industry, and by that I don't just mean trading, is full of **** holes. Some incredibly talented, some not quite so talented. But once you get to the highest levels you pretty much observe the same characteristics across the board.

Were the circumstances surrounding your current exchange more formal you might have been told (as I was once by the head of fixed income in large IB) to "**** off and If I have anything to do with it you'll never work in the city again". However, since this isn't a formalised environment, we can fool ourselves into thinking that less than formal rules of engagement, etiquette and dialogue apply.

This board, and boards like it, sometimes present us with a unique opportunity when it comes to exchanging views with and obtaining insights from market professionals. Unfortunately I think, a side effect of that is we tend to start to believe that it's a level playing field with open access to all and that there is somehow a right of passage. Needless to say it isn't and there isn't.

Regards
 

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