"All of this kind of core knowledge and understanding can, in my opinion, be learned from books, lectures, seminars, courses, etc. It is akin to earning a degree."
"Partly" based on the above opinion expressed in the article
At best, I disagree. And can see why the author needs to relate and relay his coaching experience of college volleyball rather than relating it totally ,very specifically ,absolutely to coaching a trader operating in the trading environment.
The coach in my view should know in absolute detail the subject in which they are coaching, which is why they are very scarce indeed, probably operate by very selective invitations ,word of mouth or rare introductions, its not written about or published "completely" ,for obvious reasons.
I see it as master/ student relationship.
coaches, as introduced or defined by this article are not the former but potential for the latter.
Fx.
"Partly" based on the above opinion expressed in the article
At best, I disagree. And can see why the author needs to relate and relay his coaching experience of college volleyball rather than relating it totally ,very specifically ,absolutely to coaching a trader operating in the trading environment.
The coach in my view should know in absolute detail the subject in which they are coaching, which is why they are very scarce indeed, probably operate by very selective invitations ,word of mouth or rare introductions, its not written about or published "completely" ,for obvious reasons.
I see it as master/ student relationship.
coaches, as introduced or defined by this article are not the former but potential for the latter.
Fx.
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100% correct. Trading is learning. And learning is not obtaining knowledge but getting specific skills. A skill is an "aquired habit". A human needs 20 to 40 days to get or get rid of any habit. Why then an average trader needs years to learn, and many never succeed? Because the apprentice does not know what habit is the right one. Self-learning is an ineffective process of getting and abandoning wrong habits until the correct one is ever found and developed. A good coach could help do that in 40 days. Just compare: years and 40 days.
I agree with the article due to personal experienc. My professional trading status only started to develope AFTER one-on-one coaching/mentoring. The reason books, lectures, and courses cannot replace this element is because there is no way to assimilate all the data properly. This important component is almost always left out of any other medium of learning.
Mentoring and coaching is very important and valuable.
Des44
Full-time trader
Mentoring and coaching is very important and valuable.
Des44
Full-time trader
Absolutely agree Des. And you've done some fine work in that area which has been much appreciated by many on these boards.des44 said:
But the title of the article was two-part.
"The Difficulty in Finding One". Just how does one go about finding someone suitably trained, experienced and battle-hardened, not only in the craft itself, but also themselves tutored in the art of coaching itself? A very rare combination.
It's a tough one and my own experience (not just in the area of trading) indicates only a small number ever find the right person. One they are happy with and from whom they feel they can truly benefit.
I come from solid coaching stock and I can make an observation that has been echoed across a number of disparate areas of performance enhancement research: Good coaches are rarely as good (or were ever as good if they were active in the same field themselves) as their proteges. Their skill lies in their ability to bring out that extra something from their charges.
Mentors however are a different kettle of mackerel. Mentors come up from the trenches, have seen it and done it all (and felt the pain) and if they posses or can be trained to posses the skills of the coach - they present a truly awesome combination. They are far fewer on the ground and harder to find. They must be flushed out. And they normally are by accident.
So my advice is look for the mentor - not the coach.
How to spot the difference? You have to have the luck to come across a mentor (and luck in this endeavour can be engineered) and you have to ask them to help you. With a coach - you don't normally have to ask.
Hello Des, my friend. Great to see you posting good material as you always do.
Drop me an email and we'll update.
Kind wishes,
Richard
Drop me an email and we'll update.
Kind wishes,
Richard
billy1000000 said:
I have to disagree with that.
Learning is obtaining knowledge. Skill aquisition, on the other hand, is done through training - the repetition of the skill until it is aquired and/or perfected.
I have learnt a lot from working with other traders who are actually trading their book at the same time and in the same place as I am trading mine. I see little value in learning from somebody who does not trade themselves and i imagine there is a high risk of paying to learn from somebody who does not really know the reality of what they are teaching.
I usually hate the articles published here. But I think that is a very good article. One thing that I never get is the nonesense about how good a trader a mentor needs to be. A good coach of trading doesn't have to be a good trader at all. People who subscribe to signalling services always ask whether the people who provide the signals trade themselves. They clearly confuse analysis with trading. To provide a signal, all you have to be is a good analyst. You can be a good analysit and a bad trader.
Similarly, you can be a bad trader and a good coach and mentor. Why? Because knowing what makes a success does not make you a success. I know a novice may not be able to do that, but I can assess who is a good coach and who a good trader by just talking to someone. How? Because I know what trading is about and I want the coach to also know what trading is about. When people talk about mentors, I bet they mean someone who tells them where to buy and sell. As Taleb says, 'it is easier to buy and sell than fry an egg'.
Similarly, you can be a bad trader and a good coach and mentor. Why? Because knowing what makes a success does not make you a success. I know a novice may not be able to do that, but I can assess who is a good coach and who a good trader by just talking to someone. How? Because I know what trading is about and I want the coach to also know what trading is about. When people talk about mentors, I bet they mean someone who tells them where to buy and sell. As Taleb says, 'it is easier to buy and sell than fry an egg'.
twalker said:
I would agree with this statement - I picked up a lot of useful insight when i was sat at Refco just listening to the traders sat behind me quietly discussing what they were doing or looking at, and which trades they were putting on and why.
If a teacher doesnt trade or cant trade, how can he *really* teach you how to overcome the pitfalls he was unable to overcome himself. He may believe he knows what it takes to become a good trader, but if he cant teach himself to do it, how can he really teach another?
Aside from the added difficulty of wading through all the snake-oil salesmen who will happily take your cash from you in return for not a lot.
Arbitrageur said:
Actually, sometimes the person who doesn't trade particularly well can be the best coach.
As was brought up before, there should be a differentiation between identifying good trades and actually taking positions. Some people are good at one, but not the other. I'm sure we've all heard stories about traders who can pick excellent trades and really understand the markets, but just can't seem to make the returns. They have a short-coming in some way when it comes down application. Their struggles, however, can provide them with significant insight in to the trading process, which they can pass along to others.
As a lot of traders I would be interested in having a coach. It's perhaps easy to find one for a certain amount of dollars. But in this case, how to find one who is really interested in sharing his/her knowledge. IMHO a good coach / mentor would be one who helps you for free (with or wothout real experience of trading). We all need to dream in this perfect world.
