Article The Value of Coaching And The Difficulty in Finding One

dbphoenix

Legendary member
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charliechan said:
but yes, there are hurdles to cross in order to get past the mechanical stages. i am not there yet myself, but every day i hope to get closer.
And if that's what you really want, you are right to do so, and you are a candidate for finding someone who can help you do so.

However, there is an underlying assumption here that trading intuitively is an ultimate good, and that one is not a "real" trader unless he does so. But there are a great many traders who do just fine without trading intuitively, or who incorporate intuition only as a "tie-breaker" when their method does not provide a clear path to follow.

So one must at some point decide just what it is that he wants. If one wants to learn to trade intuitively, then, again, he needs to find someone who can help him do so. If he couldn't care less about that but just wants to make a nice living, then he has other courses open to him. If he wants to trade mostly for fun and has no other goal than to supplement his income from other sources, then he has still other courses open to him.

There are many reasons for trading. There are many goals. There are many ways of reaching those goals. Taking the veil is only one of them.

Db
 

sandpiper

Well-known member
458 54
charliechan said:
maybe 4&5 can be solved with a simpler household object???? ?a potatoe peeler perhaps?
Pure genius. Almost as good as "an iceberg lettuce and a knife and fork".
 

charliechan

Experienced member
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dbphoenix said:
But there are a great many traders who do just fine without trading intuitively, or who incorporate intuition only as a "tie-breaker" when their method does not provide a clear path to follow.

So one must at some point decide just what it is that he wants. If one wants to learn to trade intuitively, then, again, he needs to find someone who can help him do so. If he couldn't care less about that but just wants to make a nice living, then he has other courses open to him. If he wants to trade mostly for fun and has no other goal than to supplement his income from other sources, then he has still other courses open to him.


Db
yes i agree. there are loads of successful mechanical traders. i tried to put that point into the post - but maybe it didnt come across.

however, i think if you are going to be successful at this, you MUST put in 100% plus. trying to be a hobby trader is no use. you are destined to lose. the concept of 'trading for fun' is beyond me, although it is imperative we enjoy what we are doing. may get the odd win, but end up a net loser for sure. just like i would be when i bet on the derby or something. but who am i to tell people what to do with their money?
 

charliechan

Experienced member
1,008 119
sandpiper said:
Pure genius. Almost as good as "an iceberg lettuce and a knife and fork".
i hope it wasnt read as a snide remark. i never meant it to be, but a reference to the peeling of the layers of our personality.
 

dbphoenix

Legendary member
6,952 1,244
charliechan said:
however, i think if you are going to be successful at this, you MUST put in 100% plus. trying to be a hobby trader is no use. you are destined to lose. the concept of 'trading for fun' is beyond me, although it is imperative we enjoy what we are doing. may get the odd win, but end up a net loser for sure. just like i would be when i bet on the derby or something.
I don't disagree. However, I'm not prepared to tell people that this is the only course since I know more than a few who do just fine in meeting their goals -- which some would consider modest -- without making this their life's work, largely, I suspect, because they are able to do it without ego.

Personally, I no longer work with recreational traders because it's always turned out to be a waste of my time. But, at the same time, I can't claim that they are doomed to fail. Maybe they are and maybe they aren't, but it is after all their money and their choice.

Db
 

sandpiper

Well-known member
458 54
charliechan said:
i hope it wasnt read as a snide remark. i never meant it to be, but a reference to the peeling of the layers of our personality.
Not at all :LOL: I understood it exactly as you intended. The praise was sincere. Apologies if it came across another way.

Regards.
 

charliechan

Experienced member
1,008 119
sandpiper said:
Not at all :LOL: I understood it exactly as you intended. The praise was sincere. Apologies if it came across another way.

Regards.

lol - im sorry for misunderstanding what was not in fact a misunderstanding. the misunderstanding was entirly mine. now i understand! i realise that you could equally peel away the leaves of an iceberg lettuce with a knife and fork.
 

timsk

Legendary member
7,085 1,872
dbphoenix said:
. . . . For one thing, the sort of coach I referred to in my post does not "teach the student to trade as he does", though if that's the sort of coach you want, you don't have to go searching for one. All you have to do is stand still and they'll be all over you.
I could not disagree more.
Mr. charts (Richard Joyson) is an example of a coach/mentor (call him what you will), who does exactly this. He teaches how he trades. And good on him, I say. He has his perception of the markets and, based upon this, he trades for a consistent profit - day after day after day. IMO, he is highly qualified to do one thing above all else: to instruct others in his specific methodology. If the methodology does not 'fit' the student, then that is their tough luck; it's not Richard's problem. Perhaps some coaches / mentors have the skill and ability to assess the precise strengths and weaknesses of each individual student that they encounter and then, on the basis of these personal characteristics, recommend a way forward. A profitable way forward. If this is the case, then to my mind, the tutee or student / disciple is placing far too high a burden of expectation upon the the coach / mentor. I don't know if the extract that I've quoted is intended as a dig at Richard or not (or Naz come to that). If it is, it is, it is both unfair and unwarranted.

dbphoenix said:
If you or anyone you know is looking for a coach, I suggest you prowl the boards, particularly this one, and focus on those who are doing the work in one form or another rather than just talking about it. Read what they say. Assess what they do. Even with all the caveats that accompany hindsight postings, you'll be able to tell over time who knows what they're doing and who doesn't. And if they've been posting for a while, there will be archives you can study, just in case you're for some reason in a hurry.Db
Well, indeed. This all sounds very plausible - obvious even. More or less, it is what I've been trying to do for the past four years or so. Clearly, I'm no longer a complete 'newbie' without an understanding of what a stop is. Equally, I'm sorry to report to any 'newbies' that may be reading this, the simple formula quoted above by dbp is not that straightforward. I'm going to stick my neck out here and list 5 specific traders known to these boards and apply - or attempt to apply dbd's approach to each of them. Let's see where it gets us. The five gurus, mentors, coaches, tutors - call them wahat you will are - in alphabetical order:
1. dbphoenix.
2. Grey 1.
3. Mr. Charts
4. mr. marcus.
5. SOCRATES.
So. I am a 'newbie', and I spend some time on T2W and, sooner or later, I come across all five of the above. Now, I know because I've been around a bit that there are some strong alliances among some of the five but, equally, there are some opposing views that (almost) manage to eclipse those of the current middle east conflict. As far as I can tell, all five of the above are profitable traders. Yet, some of them will - I know for a fact - dismiss the others as dunces and charlatans! I openly support No. 3 - Mr. Charts, because he regularly posts his own trades, with entry and exit, backed up by a screen shot of his broker account. To be fair, Grey 1 does this as well. Mr. marcus is an oddball, because he does not post his trades but, nonetheless, his contributions to Barjon's 'Wot Happened Next' threads clearly put him in a league of his own. He has to be taken seriosly by anyone. This leaves dbphoenix and SOCRATES, who will loathe to be lumped together :cheesy: But, while they both have much to contribute to the art of trading, neither regularly posts their own trades with entry and exits. So, how - precisely - is the the 'newbie' or not so new trader supposed to distinguish between the five gurus and decide which to listen to and which to ignore? Perhads I should create a poll and let members cast their votes . . . ?

dbphoenix said:
Approach one or more of these people. Find out if they're interested in coaching. Ask how much they'd charge for it and what the terms would be (you might find that one or more of them will be willing to coach you -- up to a point -- for nothing). You're as likely to find a good coach this way -- perhaps more likely -- than by answering the siren call of somebody who struts around the boards bragging about what a great trader he is while providing no evidence whatsoever that he can do what he claims to be able to do.
Good point dbp. Only problem is that as others have noted, you provide no evidence that your approach is any better or any more profitable than anyone else's approach. Indeed, many have suggested to me that you don't actually trade at all. You are brilliant at intellectualising about it, but there is no evidence whatsoever that you can actually do it. I'd be delighted if you could prove otherwise. ;)
Tim.
 
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SOCRATES

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4,966 134
charliechan said:
at first, i was about to say that i dont like to focus on inabilities. i prefer to focus upon the positives, what can be done, not what cant be done.

but then i saw the post mr m. responede to, and i have a better grasp now of what you mean. thats what you get if you butt into a conversation without fully appreciating what is being discussed.

during the world cup, there was much criticism of our ability to play 'set pieces'. i know little about football, but i got the impression they were talking about the mechanical parts of playing football. how to position yourself before a corner kick, throw in, etc.

the mechanical element as you know must be mastered first before the other bit can be approached. ronaldo would agree with this i think, as would brazilian street kids who reach roony & owen levels at the age of about 4 or 5 as anyone who has been near a favellah(spelling?) will attest to.

also, a very good living can still be made from the mechanical phase, as the interest rate spread traders found out, and also the endland football team - who according to linaker, have yet to master the mechanical stage as 2nd nature.

but yes, there are hurdles to cross in order to get past the mechanical stages. i am not there yet myself, but every day i hope to get closer.

the mechanical pathway of course is well documented, despite most still struggling. the route to the intuitive level which is where im guessing youre going with this however is not. this is why you only 'indulge' with steps 1-3, but purposefully omit steps 4-5 (probably as a defence mechanism inorder to avoid the barrage of insults that would arrive if you were to do so). people as you know will plead and beg for steps 4-5, while stuck on step 2. we both know you will not give steps 4 &5. all though i do know that, i kind of get the impression they are to be found by the individual, and not yours to give in the first place.

maybe if the difficult steps of 1-3 could be solved with something as simple as a mirror, maybe 4&5 can be solved with a simpler household object???? ?a potatoe peeler perhaps?
It is not that I dwell or concentrate on the inabilities in preference to the abilities.

The abilities are readily identifiable between a few of us who already posses them.

But the inabilities beset so many people and give so many problems that they have to be mentioned.

All human beings by virtue of being human and having self preservation and survival instincts are wired in a certain way to react to given stimuli. These responses are perfect for the purposes for which they exist.....but not for trading.

Trading requires a different set of responses. These responses are practically alien to the human condition given that the human condition additionally carries the nuisance of emotions.

The central core of how human response works is not suited to the cruel yes no scenario that trading entails, it is suited to survive, self preserve, procreate, eat, drink,seek shelter, obtain warmth, sleep, detect illness, and so on.....

The act of trading requires a central core that is not a natural central core in the sense that it is not constructed additionally to take on the functions as described above.

It therefore means that for the purpose of first laying the groundwork leading to perfect intuition, correct response, perfect timing and dare I say it...futurology....is to create a central core which is suited to these tasks.

The problem is that the existing central core views itself as perfect....(because it is...it is successful in preserving life etc., ) and blocks the development of a replacement that it views as a usurper....that is ....a threat to its authority....that it cannot tolerate because to do so would entail dereliction of responsibility to preserve life etc., where the original central core is so deeply rooted and so securely anchored that it refuses to be removed.

Modification is not sufficient....it is not sufficient because it allows the original protocols under which the original central core is constructed at any given time to suddenly overrule and take over. So it is a complete REWIRING job that has to be done. This self rewiting is attainable by some people but not by everybody, which is what puzzles me.

Now the great majority cannot cross this hurdle. In any event they do not view replacing the central core with another central core (constructed specially only for trading) as neccessary, desireable,justifiable, or achievable.

So from the very word go...there is a problem.

This problem has to be resolved at a very early stage in order to leave the path ahead clear in order to progress.

It is a matter of conviction, persistence, awareness and a measure of determination and personal bravery of such intensity that the original central core effectively snuffs out the idea even before it can take root....why ? simple...the idea of a replacement (not modification) absolutely threatens its authority...this cannot and will not be tolerated...therefore it is not that the idea is dropped....more to the point...the idea...gets sabotaged.

The original central core attempts to carry out the task for which it is not constructed, for which it is not suitable and for which it is not prepared, and keeps the aspirant PRISONER and unable to progress to the final desired mental state,

So I cannot even begin to talk about 4 and 5 in a public forum if already for most ordinary people 1 2 and 3 already create insurmountable problems.

Before one can run, one must teach oneself to walk.

One has to teach oneself....because no one can walk for us...otherwise it would be simple...

And there is another problem with it.

It is not a tangible concept. It is not a material thing that you can dismantle and examine and understand....the problem is that it is ABSTRACT....and therefore difficult to explain and to demonstrate.

When it is demonstrated...it is very difficult for the observer to either accept or understand, let alone be able to clone....you put two traders in front of a screen and they are both shown the same information...the difference lies in how the information is processed in accordance with what I have explained above.

That is invisible to the naked eye....but the result is what qualifies the thought processes used.
 
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dbphoenix

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6,952 1,244
timsk said:
Good point dbp. Only problem is that as others have noted, you provide no evidence that your approach is any better or any more profitable than anyone else's approach. Indeed, many have suggested to me that you don't actually trade at all. You are brilliant at intellectualising about it, but there is no evidence whatsoever that you can actually do it. I'd be delighted if you could prove otherwise. ;)
Tim.
Prove what? What you and some others fail to understand is that I don't claim to be a great trader, nor do I have a "method" or a "system" to teach or sell. If I did, then I could be expected to post results. But I don't. My focus since the CANSLIM days has been to help beginners create their own strategies throught the development of a trading plan. Since so few are willing to go to the trouble, I work with very few people.

Those who want something else, of course, have plenty to choose from. Those who want to learn to trade intuitively can hire Socrates. Those who want to learn to trade like Richard can turn to Richard. And so on.

As I said, there are many ways to make money. It's up to the individual to determine which is best for him.

Db
 

SOCRATES

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4,966 134
mr.marcus said:
...to correct you there tim....2 years ago ...a year after i was introduced to trading i posted probably close to 200 live trades in the chatroom which i did for for a few weeks....i then spent about 6-8 weeks moderating the room helping others....at one stage it reached 40 traders on a daily basis who i taught for free.....why do i not post trades now....why should i?...i dont have time .i have a business to run....a room of traders to manage and i trade at speed so cant post real time......i have nothing to gain from helping others...its not my business....i.only coach/mentor for free....and i have nothing to prove whatsoever.....but as i have said many times due to the arrogance shown by others....im game for a tradeathon.....set up a venue and all proceeds will go to charity...oddball my **** :LOL: ....check this link.

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/showthread.php?t=11106&page=5&pp=10


ps...the last time i went out of my way to post trades i was hounded by a nutter ...who ended up being banned 5 times for harrassing me....go figure why i dont trade here anymore.
That's right in the end you have to choose...and you end up by choosing what is persoanlly beneficial for you and your group...and not to have to battle away for no purpose.

Yes....:cool: ....exactly..
 
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SOCRATES

Veteren member
4,966 134
dbphoenix said:
Prove what? What you and some others fail to understand is that I don't claim to be a great trader, nor do I have a "method" or a "system" to teach or sell. If I did, then I could be expected to post results. But I don't. My focus since the CANSLIM days is to help beginners create their own strategies throught the development of a trading plan. Since so few are willing to go to the trouble, I work with very few people.

Those who want something else, of course, have plenty to choose from. Those who want to learn to trade intuitively can hire Socrates. Those who want to learn to trade like Richard can turn to Richard. And so on.

As I said, there are many ways to make money. It's up to the individual to determine which is best for him.

Db
No sorry....the gates are firmly shut....I have learnt my lesson...no tuitiion or mentoring of any sort whatsoever under any circumstances whether paid or unpaid.....and no books to be published either....sorry.

The reason ? It has been proved to me repeatedly that traders are born and not made.
 
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dbphoenix

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbphoenix
. . . . For one thing, the sort of coach I referred to in my post does not "teach the student to trade as he does", though if that's the sort of coach you want, you don't have to go searching for one. All you have to do is stand still and they'll be all over you.

timsk said:
I could not disagree more.
Mr. charts (Richard Joyson) is an example of a coach/mentor (call him what you will), who does exactly this. He teaches how he trades. And good on him, I say.
And incidentally, Tim, try not to morph what I say into what you think you read. Note my comment "the sort of coach I referred to in my post . . .". Richard is not the sort of coach I referred to in my post. Richard does what he does and I have every reason to believe that he does it well. And I have every reason to believe that those who claim to have learned a great deal from him have in fact done so.

But, again, Richard is not the type of "coach" that I referred to in my post. And I hope that Richard knows that.

Db
 

counter_violent

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A tradeathon, now there's a mouth watering prospect......I'd pay to see that.....all the cut and thrust of a punch up......the mind games of grand masters in a chess tourney.....different styles, differnt flairs....and you never know, maybe it would help the audience .....What trading style will suit me? etc.

Bring it on guys........Anyone who declines this challenge is a pussy !! :LOL:

C V
 
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timsk

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mr.marcus said:
...oddball.... :eek: ...to correct you there tim...cheeky git ... :cheesy: .2 years ago ...a year after i was introduced to trading i posted probably close to 200 live trades in the chat room which i did for for a few weeks.
Hi mark,
I'm not having a dig at you, I promise! The term 'oddball' was meant to be a compliment - a term of endearment - as your style and contribution to these boards is unique and quite unlike any other. I've never ventured into the chat room, so I'm totally unaware of your activities there. Ignorance is no defence, I know - apologies for any offence caused - I assure none was intended.
Best wishes,
Tim.
 

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