Ukraine invasion

CavaliereVerde said:
These are YOUR reasons for the "intervention" and the fact tha they are the same promoted by russian state propaganda should worry you.
Western MSM is not the truth but is more credible than russian state media.

My reasons for the intervention are:

1. Putin's imperialism

His practical goals today are:
- providing water to Crimea (Kherson)
- adding a land bridge for Crimea (Mariupol)

I am not questioning your comprehension of democracy so plese do not question mine.
Click to expand...

Just ignore them, it's much easier. (y) 🇺🇦
 
CavaliereVerde said:
These are YOUR reasons for the "intervention" and the fact tha they are the same promoted by russian state propaganda should worry you.
Western MSM is not the truth but is more credible than russian state media.

My reasons for the intervention are:

1. Putin's imperialism

His practical goals today are:
- providing water to Crimea (Kherson)
- adding a land bridge for Crimea (Mariupol)

I am not questioning your comprehension of democracy so plese do not question mine.
Click to expand...

I am indeed questioning your principles and comprehension of democracy.

It seems to me like it is simply a question of picking a side and that's it. You justify the actions of one side irrespective of the acts committed. Nazism is nazism. Does it matter whether they kill Jews, Blacks or pro-Russians civilians? It is a sick ideology that has no place in human society.

Highly debatable that bit about MSM being more credible. I thought we just had a debate about the meaning of an evacuation and surrender few posts earlier.
 
Atilla said:
How very convenient it must be to have these cells. War on terror indeed.
Click to expand...
Agreed, calling for terrorism is very convenient when you want to start a war.
The same for biolabs and WMD.
Arabic people? look for terrorists!
White people? look for nazis!
 
CavaliereVerde said:
Agreed, calling for terrorism is very convenient when you want to start a war.
The same for biolabs and WMD.
Arabic people? look for terrorists!
White people? look for nazis!
Click to expand...

Western White People? Freedom fighters and democracy champions. Valient and Victorious Conquerers. :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

Agreed yes indeed.
 
fwiw - I do not believe true democracy exists in China or Russia. i.e. where people get to pick. However, as mentioned before this is because if it did, the whole apparatus would be manipulated by the West and big power vested interests with money to destabilise and weaken these countries. Much like when Boris Yeltsin took over the reins for a while. No idea where he turned up from?

Thus, both in China and Russia, when a leader is elected it must be from the rank and file establishment. The party. This is no secret. The people get to pick imo from vetted and certified party bodies nominated by the big wigs.

In turn, the party looks after the interest of their people.

There are always winners and losers. Politics still plays a big part.

Do I think it is better or worse than our democracy? I don't know. If I look at China they have done remarkably well. I think Russia has been doing well and been able to advance in science and many other areas just like the West. People travel more and yes there is freedom to travel and spirit of free enterprise to conduct any business you like.

My opinion is that - what's it to me. If the people don't like it, it is up to the Chinese and Russians to sort it out amongst themselves.

Why are the two CVs hell bent on changing how these two big super powers elect their leaders? What's it to you two. As a superpower, I'd say sod off. Go on sort out your own election processes.

I agree and LibDem policy, proportional representation would be nice. :)
 
CavaliereVerde said:
This is ECONOMIC freedom.

I prefer to refer to Democracy index, Free press index and corruption index in Wikipedia.

Ukraine has many problems but corruption is lower than Russia and there is more freedom.
Click to expand...

Economic freedom IS freedom

2023 Index of Economic Freedom | The Heritage Foundation

Index of Economic Freedom is an annual ranking of the economic freedom of 184 countries from property rights to entrepreneurship published by The Heritage Foundation.
www.heritage.org www.heritage.org

Today, we live in the most prosperous time in human history. Poverty, sicknesses, and ignorance are receding throughout the world, due in large part to the advance of economic freedom. In 2022, the principles of economic freedom that have fueled this monumental progress are once again measured in the Index of Economic Freedom, an annual guide published by The Heritage Foundation, Washington's No. 1 think tank.
Click to expand...
 
Atilla said:
Much like when Boris Yeltsin took over the reins for a while. No idea where he turned up from?
Click to expand...
Yeltsin was a moron, Putin has been the perfect leader for the first 4 years.
Atilla said:
Do I think it is better or worse than our democracy? I don't know. If I look at China they have done remarkably well.
Click to expand...
You are overestimating China I suggest you this channel:

With democracy you can change, dictators can start well but then they surround themselves with yesmen and work for their survival not for the people.
 
counter_violent said:
www.bbc.co.uk

Russian diplomat quits over war in Ukraine

Boris Bondarev walks out of his job in Geneva, saying he has never been more ashamed of Russia.
www.bbc.co.uk
Click to expand...
Is this guy deluded?

"Those who conceived of this war want only one thing - to stay in power forever," he wrote.

He really is out of touch with reality, isn't he?

I wonder how much the West have paid to buy this guy out?

He could be a honey trap as well of course? But who would want a numpty like him other than to make some headline capital?
 
Atilla said:
Bearing in mind borders of Ukraine have never been ratified and so really Russia owns Ukraine until agreements concluded...
Click to expand...
How can you write such a bullshit...
Has Russia questioned Ukraine borders in 1991?
No, they were perfectly fine until they were under Russian umbrella.
Keep appeasing Putin and in 20 years the world will be ruled by dictators.
The borders of Ukraine are not decided by Putin the conqueror.
 
CavaliereVerde said:
How can you write such a bullshit...
Has Russia questioned Ukraine borders in 1991?
No, they were perfectly fine until they were under Russian umbrella.
Keep appeasing Putin and in 20 years the world will be ruled by dictators.
The borders of Ukraine are not decided by Putin the conqueror.
Click to expand...

Facts are BullShit are they?

Demarcation[edit]​

A treaty on the demarcation of the common border between the foreign ministers of Ukraine and Russia was signed on 17 May 2010 and came into force on 29 July of the same year.[28] At that time, Ukraine intended to start work on the demarcation of the border upon ratification of the agreement by the respective governments, but ratification was not completed. However 16 June 2014 the National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine ordered the government to carry a one-side demarcation of the border "in terms of existing threats to national security"; amidst the worst fighting of the 2014 pro-Russian conflict in Ukraine.[28]
 
The title is misleading this is what Kissinger proposed:
"Ideally, the dividing line should be a return to the status quo ante.
This means russian should return where they were before February 24th
That is not to give Putin what he wants.
It is the condition posed by Zelensky for a ceasefire.
 
CavaliereVerde said:
The title is misleading this is what Kissinger proposed:
"Ideally, the dividing line should be a return to the status quo ante.
This means russian shol return where they were before February 24th
That is not to give Putin what he wants.
It is the condition posed by Zelensy for a ceasefire.
Click to expand...

That's funny. Ideally return to status quo is for Ukraine to kiss goodbye to NATO and uncle Sam and Lady Jane influences.

However, the article says Former secretary of state Henry Kissinger has said Ukraine should accept giving up part of its territory to reach a peace deal with Russia, and end the now three-month-long war immediately.

If he didn't say that then I'm sorry I've been misled by the press. Who could have imagine the press would distort the truth like that. :eek:
 
Facts are that Putin is grabbing land in Ukraine.
Everything else is a conspiracy.
Ukraine is ruled by US!
Ukraine is ruled by nazis!
US want to rule the world so nazis are ruling the world!
But we are so lucky to have Putin the liberator!
Everything will be denazified like Mariupol!
 
Atilla said:
That's funny. Ideally return to status quo is for Ukraine to kiss goodbye to NATO and uncle Sam and Lady Jane influences.
Click to expand...
You are right so the status quo ante is Russia rebuliding Mariupol and resurrecting every civilian that died since Februarey 24th.... :unsure:
 
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