Ukraine invasion

There is much distortion of truth and writing of history from West perspective and viewpoint.

Western people are only just waking up to all the manipulation and propoganda which goes on.

Stuff that presents an alternative narrative view point is said to be propoganda and banned like RTNews and Al-Jazeera amongst others.

What with the Guantanomo bay and Gaza attrocities it is clear the so called Western countries are quite at liberty to tear up even their own rules and protections like the Geneva conventions and apply their own version of cruel and very barbarian conduct on the rest of humanity.

Western double standards and version of events is quite sickening. 🤢
I think you can often look at things from different angles, but common sense has to be there.

For example, there are posts above, stating that all the nuclear missiles belonged to Russia, because they previously belonged to the USSR. It doesn't matter about which side you are on, or what propaganda that exists, that just doesn't make sense. When the Soviet Union broke up, of course new states that are formed, will have claim on their territory, their people, the land, the buildings etc. Now USSR may also want to claim some of those things, but clearly Ukraine did think they had a valid claim. You can tell that, because
1) Negotiations on the return of the missiles had broken down between Russia and Ukraine
2) it took a tri-lateral agreement with the US included (linked in the thread)
3) it still took many years after this agreement for the nuclear missiles to be disarmed or materials returned
4) Ukraine were financially compensated for nuclear materials and received security assurances

Every one of the above 4 indications, tell you that Ukraine had at least some power/control/ownership/claim over the nuclear weapons.

So to say "Ukraine had no rights on them." doesn't make sense. If Russia had complete control over those military assets, then there isn't much of a need to even negotiate, compensate or give assurances.


If Scotland completely separated from the rest of the UK, there would be debates about who owns north sea oil, who owns certain fishing grounds, who owns military assets, would Scotland accept some part of the National Debt, would Scotland be allowed to use pound sterling and so on.

It only makes sense to say that the nuclear weapon ownership was in some sort of dispute with both Ukraine and Russia making claims on that ownership.

Ukraine later gave up their claim in return for various things, including security assurances, which of course weren't worth the paper they were written on as Russia continues its invasion.
 
That's complete nonsense as they want to make people believe now.

The arms always belonged to Russia as Russia was the successor of the USSR. Russia paid the dept of the USSR as it was seen as the successor, Ukraine did not.
The owner of the weapons was always Russia, Ukraine had no rights on them.

That was a general problem of the resolution of the USSR that a lot of things were not cleared related to the ownership of a lot of stuff.

More details to the history is written here:
A non-partisan research post - London
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Comment Phylo: That's complete nonsense as they want to make people believe now.

Which part of this is not understood
operational control remained exclusively with Moscow

There's no doubt who's nukes were on Ukraine territory. Wait, ...maybe they were UK nukes ? US Nukes ? No, no, definitely Russia's Nukes.
The owner of the weapons was always Russia,
This plain obvious fact is being use to obfuscate* the issue - a regular subterfuge** tactic of intelligence agencies and the Putin fan boy's club.
*make obscure, unclear, or unintelligible, confuse.
** deceit used in order to achieve one's goal.

When one country loses control of another, it looses control of its shite.

Comment Phylo: More details to the history is written here:
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SO HAVING DEFINITELY ESTABLISHED WHO'S NUKES - ALL AGREED ?
THE HYPOCRISY: SO WHAT IS GOOD FOR THE GOOSE, IS NOT GOOD FOR THE GANDER
Ukraine is a sovereign independent entity - no longer force wed to the bear.
The bear still wants to dictate who's bed the ex-forced wed bride shares.
 
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When you have a Union of countries or states, which then break up and become independent, it is understood (I think), that each member of the union has contributed to the whole union in the past. So arguments such as "those always belonged to Russia only" aren't very convincing. They belonged to a union which no longer exists in the same way. Therefore, since the Union has split, so too we have to split various land and resources. Borders agreed upon, ideally in a diplomatic way.

When it is stated: "operational control remained exclusively with Moscow"
What exactly is meant? Are you saying that at the time of the soviet break-up, all military sites based in Ukraine were fully staffed by only Russian born and loyal soldiers, with not one Ukrainian at those facilities? Ukraine had absolutely zero influence or control of any of these weapons or the sites containing them?

And if that were the case, then there is simply no need to negotiate with Ukraine for the Budapest Memorandum. Russia could simply disarm all of the nuclear weapons itself, or perhaps even ship some of the materials back to Russia. But yet they had to negotiate a treaty with Ukraine for their disarmament. Why would Russia be so concerned about these missiles if they had complete control? You see it doesn't make any sense does it. Russia had concerns that Ukraine might be able to use these weapons or develop their own. United States also had some concerns and decided to broker a deal. So Russia trying to bully their way over Ukraine, the US trying to make deals with Ukraine that pacify Russia, but have U.S. self-interests in as well. That was over thirty years ago. Times haven't changed much.

Perhaps what is meant by operational control is things like nuclear launch codes. But yet Russia was still concerned.
 
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When you have a Union of countries or states, which then break up and become independent, it is understood (I think), that each member of the union has contributed to the whole union in the past. So arguments such as "those always belonged to Russia only" aren't very convincing. They belonged to a union which no longer exists in the same way. Therefore, since the Union has split, so too we have to split various land and resources. Borders agreed upon, ideally in a diplomatic way.

When it is stated: "operational control remained exclusively with Moscow"
What exactly is meant? Are you saying that at the time of the soviet break-up, all military sites based in Ukraine were fully staffed by only Russian born and loyal soldiers, with not one Ukrainian at those facilities? Ukraine had absolutely zero influence or control of any of these weapons or the sites containing them?

And if that were the case, then there is simply no need to negotiate with Ukraine for the Budapest Memorandum. Russia could simply disarm all of the nuclear weapons itself, or perhaps even ship some of the materials back to Russia. But yet they had to negotiate a treaty with Ukraine for their disarmament. Why would Russia be so concerned about these missiles if they had complete control? You see it doesn't make any sense does it. Russia had concerns that Ukraine might be able to use these weapons or develop their own. United States also had some concerns and decided to broker a deal. So Russia trying to bully their way over Ukraine, the US trying to make deals with Ukraine that pacify Russia, but have U.S. self-interests in as well. That was over thirty years ago. Times haven't changed much.

Perhaps what is meant by operational control is things like nuclear launch codes. But yet Russia was still concerned.
Practical Realities of Nuclear Retention

Recently declassified documents and expert analysis indicate that, in the 1990s, Ukraine lacked the technical infrastructure, financial resources, and operational control to maintain or use the Soviet-era nuclear weapons on its territory35. Most of the command and control systems remained under Moscow’s authority, and Ukraine would have needed significant investment and time to develop an independent nuclear capability35. Thus, even without the Budapest Memorandum, it is unlikely Ukraine could have remained a credible nuclear power in the short or medium term35.

Irrespective of the above, the Budapest Memorandum happened.

Screenshot from 2025-06-05 18-40-04.png

 
Practical Realities of Nuclear Retention
Recently declassified documents and expert analysis indicate that, in the 1990s, Ukraine lacked the technical infrastructure, financial resources, and operational control to maintain or use the Soviet-era nuclear weapons on its territory35. Most of the command and control systems remained under Moscow’s authority, and Ukraine would have needed significant investment and time to develop an independent nuclear capability35. Thus, even without the Budapest Memorandum, it is unlikely Ukraine could have remained a credible nuclear power in the short or medium term35.

Irrespective of the above, the Budapest Memorandum happened.

View attachment 341935

Yes I have read that too. At the time, under a lot of political pressure from Russia and the US, as well as financial pressure, it may have seemed the right decision to give up the nukes. Especially if you were going to receive lots of money and hoped the security guarantees would hold.

I think it is clear that if the two super-powers of that time were worried about those nuclear weapons and wanted disarmament fairly soon after Ukraine's independence, then they had good reasons for concern. It seems likely that either Ukraine would at some point be able to overcome those control systems, or that Ukraine with many educated scientists, would be able to build their own weapons.

The Manhattan project took several years of top scientists working on it, testing and development. But they had to invent from scratch, they didn't have lots of working nukes to reverse engineer. As you mentioned, Ukraine had 1900 warheads in their possession, 176 ICBMs as well as 44 bombers and would have people with knowledge about these. Plus all the nuclear materials they need to make their own.

In any case, Ukraine decided to yield the nukes and try to agree peace with diplomacy. Russia got the disarmament they wanted, but then decided not to stick to their end of the agreement, in 2014 in Crimea, and again in 2022.
 
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Zelensky takes apparent dig at Trump for calling Putin





 
While talking about operational control of the nukes, I again mention this story:

Stanislav Yevgrafovich Petrov (Russian: Станисла́в Евгра́фович Петро́в; 7 September 1939 – 19 May 2017) was a lieutenant colonel of the Soviet Air Defence Forces who played a key role in the 1983 Soviet nuclear false alarm incident. On 26 September 1983, three weeks after the Soviet military had shot down Korean Air Lines Flight 007, Petrov was the duty officer at the command center for the Oko nuclear early-warning system when the system reported that a missile had been launched from the United States, followed by up to four more. Petrov judged the reports to be a false alarm.

His subsequent decision to disobey orders, against Soviet military protocol, is credited with having prevented an erroneous retaliatory nuclear attack on the United States and its NATO allies that would have likely resulted in a large-scale nuclear war. An investigation later confirmed that the Soviet satellite warning system had indeed malfunctioned. Because of his decision not to launch a retaliatory nuclear strike amid this incident, Petrov is often credited as having "saved the world".


I don't believe control of these missiles is always as strong as people think.
 
A non-partisan research post - London
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From one administration to the other, the comedy of errors continues - or is this a Julius Caesar tragedy ?
Why bother with theatre? Just watch the White House, which some may consider Ukraine's once and former ally.
"Fair is foul, and foul is fair, Hover through the fog and filthy air."
(Macbeth, Act 1, Scene 1)
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The Guardian
 
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A non-partisan research post - London
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From one administration to the other, the comedy of errors continues - or is this a Julius Caesar tragedy ?
Why bother with theatre? Just watch the White House, which some may consider Ukraine's once and former ally.
"Fair is foul, and foul is fair, Hover through the fog and filthy air."
(Macbeth, Act 1, Scene 1)
----------------------------------------------------
View attachment 341959
The Guardian
A non-partisan research post - London
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A far cry from sleepy Joe - you couldn't make ship up ! 🤣🤣 Uncle Putin must be rolling on the floor - I'll join him 🤣🤣
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The Daily Mail
 
In the unlikely event that any subscribers to this thread are not well aware of the insight, understanding, intelligence, humanity and wisdom of Prof. Jeffrey Sachs - this is as good a place as any to familiarise yourselves with him. Enjoy . . .

 
In the unlikely event that any subscribers to this thread are not well aware of the insight, understanding, intelligence, humanity and wisdom of Prof. Jeffrey Sachs - this is as good a place as any to familiarise yourselves with him. Enjoy . . .


Exactly spot on and hard to dispute. The West talks nicely nicely but faced with the same threats they don't like they simply do what ever they like.

Funny how the US started Iran's nuclear program under the Shah and now wants a sovereign state to shut it. It's crazy. Blatant two faced policy and conduct by the US and the so called civilised West. 🤢
 

EU financing ‘extremism’ – applicant state

Russian military retaliated to Kiev’s ‘terrorist acts’ – MOD





 
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