UK Politics

[CavaliereVerde]

@tomorton
Which foreign railways have YOU experience with?
As for my experience UK railroads are not so bad but quality is slightly lower than Italy and price is just insane, traveling by car is much cheaper in UK.
In UK train makes sense to go from A to B only if neither A or B are London.
In Italy there is no x5 price multiplier to go to Milan or Rome.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

In continental Europe we see education health and public transport as a service for the citizen not as a source of profit.
Italy is not the best for efficiency, if you want something better look to Netherlands, France and Germany.
Even our "poor country" is better than UK about education, healthcare and public transportation.

 

[tomorton]

@tomorton
Which foreign railways have YOU experience with?
As for my experience UK railroads are not so bad but quality is slightly lower than Italy and price is just insane, traveling by car is much cheaper in UK.
In UK train makes sense to go from A to B only if neither A or B are London.
In Italy there is no x5 price multiplier to go to Milan or Rome.

I only have experience of British, French, Belgian, Swiss and Hong Kong rail services. To be honest, apart from some old and out of date carriages on a UK train once a long time ago my experiences were all fine.

But obviously I only pay taxes in one of those countries and anyway am not a regular train passenger.

My objection to putting services in the hands of national government is that everything governments do they do pretty badly and at great cost. When I say everything, I am ready to be corrected but nobody really ants to suggest anything that the UK government does that is a really really good service. That being the case, why would we want to trust such an organisation with more and more vital national infrastructure? There has to be a better solution than the socialist solution.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

am not a regular train passenger.

Neither I am but I live 35 km from Milan.
With my regional railway I can be there in 30 min spending 6 EUR.
Doing the same with London is insane.
Passenger public transport is a losing business.
Make it private and the ticket prices will be so high that everyone will rather use cars.
Public transport is an investment to remove cars from roads.

 

[tomorton]

Neither I am but I live 35 km from Milan.
With my regional railway I can be there in 30 min spending 6 EUR.
Doing the same with London is insane.
Passenger public transport is a losing business.
Make it private and the ticket prices will be so high that everyone will rather use cars.
Public transport is an investment to remove cars from roads.

Yes its a losing business. which is why I have described the UK's privatised railway system as not really privatised. Germany's is similar - its technically privatised but the government is the major shareholder and pours money in like rainwater.

Is this really the best option for reducing pollution from road traffic?

Who are these people who change their journey type from driving their car to taking a train? Do they really have that choice?

 

[CavaliereVerde]

Who are these people who change their journey type from driving their car to taking a train? Do they really have that choice?

I have a friend, he is an engineer and has no money problems, he owns 2 cars (waiting for the third).
Every day he commmutes to Milan with train, he can work/study/read/sleep during the trip.
Train is cheaper and sometimes can be even better.

 

[tomorton]

I have a friend, he is an engineer and has no money problems, he owns 2 cars (waiting for the third).
Every day he commmutes to Milan with train, he can work/study/read/sleep during the trip.
Train is cheaper and sometimes can be even better.

Doesn't sound like the majority of train / car users. I don't think Italy's transport policy decisions will have been built around this model.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

Doesn't sound like the majority of train / car users. I don't think Italy's transport policy decisions will have been built around this model.

You asked for an example and I have given it to you.
My friend has a high profile job, train is used by students, low profile and high profile workers.
The model is that traveling with train to big cities is convenient to avoid traffic and parking problems, you arrive close to the center or few metro stations away from you destination.

I will give you another example: ME
Some months ago I had to go to Como for a concert at Opera House ( I play clarinet).
Going with car I had to use an expensive parking that would cost me 8-10 EUR .
Instead I went to a village very close to mine with a station.
I left my car there at a free parking and bought a ticket to Como for 2 EUR. (~12 km)

 

[tomorton]

We are only just over a week away from the announcement of the new Prime Minister.

Right now, the more interesting question than who it will be is whether they will be able to hang on to a Parliamentary majority.

Assuming they do survive until their term expires in 2024, what kind of miraculous political event would be needed for them to be re-elected? I can't see it.

 

[Atilla]

We are only just over a week away from the announcement of the new Prime Minister.

Right now, the more interesting question than who it will be is whether they will be able to hang on to a Parliamentary majority.

Assuming they do survive until their term expires in 2024, what kind of miraculous political event would be needed for them to be re-elected? I can't see it.

Brexit deal is a success 🙌

🤣🤣

 

[J Livermore]

How do you account for bonuses and FTSE comp CEOs getting literally 100s of times more salary then the average?

I've studied all that tosh and it is theoretical tosh.

That’s an argument for jealousy. There is no sound economic argument for limiting peoples’ incomes.

 

[Atilla]

That’s an argument for jealousy. There is no sound economic argument for limiting peoples’ incomes.

And how do you feel about teachers doctors nurses and bin men striking for more income to keep up with inflation then.

If there is no sound economic argument for limiting peoples incomes, what is the big deal about paying low income peeps a living wage?

 

[J Livermore]

And how do you feel about teachers doctors nurses and bin men striking for more income to keep up with inflation then.

If there is no sound economic argument for limiting peoples incomes, what is the big deal about paying low income peeps a living wage?

The reason why wages are low is because poor uneducated people have babies which supplies the market with cheap labor. It is absolutely no different than if impoverished immigrants come into the country and lower wages across many industries.

Using your logic, if it’s ok for you to take from the rich, then it is also perfectly ok for someone much poorer to take from you. Am I right?

 

[Atilla]

The reason why wages are low is because poor uneducated people have babies which supplies the market with cheap labor. It is absolutely no different than if impoverished immigrants come into the country and lower wages across many industries.

Using your logic, if it’s ok for you to take from the rich, then it is also perfectly ok for someone much poorer to take from you. Am I right?

No you are not right. You are categorically wrong to the point of ignorance.


Nurses, teachers and policeman are skilled professionals and short in supply that requires considerable training and education. You can have a zillion babies from uneducated people and still have nursing shortages. So you see unless you wish to argue otherwise you are wrong.

I am not a Marxist and nor do I believe in equality. I must have said it umpteen times on these threads.
I do believe in equity, the fair distribution of the cake based on merit and efficiency. So no it would be not fair for poor people to take from others who are better off.

However, that does not negate the excessive awarding of numeration to CEO's as bonus payments that often do not relate to anything positive or productive.

If one kills in war one may well get medals for bravery. If one kills in peace time one may well get locked up if caught. The two activities whilst killing a human being are two different events based on their motives. Am I right? Silly rhetorical question indeed. LOL

 

[J Livermore]

No you are not right. You are categorically wrong to the point of ignorance.


Nurses, teachers and policeman are skilled professionals and short in supply that requires considerable training and education. You can have a zillion babies from uneducated people and still have nursing shortages. So you see unless you wish to argue otherwise you are wrong.

I am not a Marxist and nor do I believe in equality. I must have said it umpteen times on these threads.
I do believe in equity, the fair distribution of the cake based on merit and efficiency. So no it would be not fair for poor people to take from others who are better off.

However, that does not negate the excessive awarding of numeration to CEO's as bonus payments that often do not relate to anything positive or productive.

If one kills in war one may well get medals for bravery. If one kills in peace time one may well get locked up if caught. The two activities whilst killing a human being are two different events based on their motives. Am I right? Silly rhetorical question indeed. LOL

I should have made myself more clear. I was talking about the economy as a whole, not individual sectors such as nurses, teachers, and policemen. However, since you brought them up…..

Public employees make their pay raises by voting for politicians who promise them the most pay. It’s the same story the world over where public employees are unionized. Unions use the increased pay that comes from the treasury to lobby and vote for more government paid salaries. It’s a vicious cycle which caused former President FDR in the US to vehemently speak out against public unions.

That being said, even the medical industry is not immune to competition from lower paid workers. The US gets a lot of doctors from overseas and that has somewhat hurt the income of American born doctors a little who don’t want the lower income that foreigner born doctors don’t mind as much.

Governments do not believe in equity. The politicians give the most to those who give them the most, whether its votes, promises of a job after they get out of politics, ect. The list of goodies can be endless.

You only get a say in what executives get paid if you are a shareholder. If you are a small investor, you get a small vote. If you are a large shareholder, you get a big say. Like it or not that’s how ownership of corporations work. If enough shareholders don’t like the board of directors they will be voted out.

 

[tomorton]

What you say concerning the voting behaviour of public employees helps explain how we in the UK see far more public sector industrial unrest and strike action when a Labour administration is in power.

Most recently. witness the 95+ TfL (Transport for London) strikes since London had a Labour Mayor responsible for the capital's public transport.

 

[Atilla]

I should have made myself more clear. I was talking about the economy as a whole, not individual sectors such as nurses, teachers, and policemen. However, since you brought them up…..

You really are a confused puppy. You were explaining to me "The reason why wages are low is because poor uneducated people have babies which supplies the market with cheap labor. It is absolutely no different than if impoverished immigrants come into the country and lower wages across many industries. "

CEO wages are not low. You are now switching to talking about the economy as a whole and not sectors.

But still, across all sectors CEO wages are high.

Not only that, you are now comparing UK with US, sadly, ignoring our main European partners who are our key competitors and probably better to compare UK performance against.


Point remains there is an inequitable distribution of income across many vital industries that require skilled labour.

Perfect competition tells us the salaries of skilled labour would rise and thus attract more labour into the industry. This doesn't seem to be happening with nurses and teachers. On the contrary given the training costs and salaries received, it is not worth becoming a nurse or a teacher.

On the contrary, one would expect loads of CEO's given the high salaries but in contrast they are very far and few in number. So that would imply we have a shortage of good qualified CEO's to fill the positions.

However, we all know that really isn't the case is it? One can recruit from outside or promote from within the industry. Hardly a shortage of CEO's.

Governments do not believe in equity. The politicians give the most to those who give them the most, whether its votes, promises of a job after they get out of politics, ect. The list of goodies can be endless.

Government's role is to provide a reliable and consistent environment for free enterprise to perform. Governments are there to serve everybody in the nation, not just those who have voted for them. Your principals are akin to banana republics who execute vindictive policies against sectors that do not vote for them. This is against the principles of our democracy and parliament. More like Boris's government giving hand outs (billion £ contracts to chums) and secretaries). You really are talking about how very dubious and crony government may rule and operate. I can only assume this is about the politicians you favour.

That's some pretty sick beliefs you have. I think the Tories have done far more damage to the UK than anything else the EU could have done. Outside of the EU, I fear British politicians of your breed will simply take the country down further to a banana republic.

 

[J Livermore]

You really are a confused puppy. You were explaining to me "The reason why wages are low is because poor uneducated people have babies which supplies the market with cheap labor. It is absolutely no different than if impoverished immigrants come into the country and lower wages across many industries. "

CEO wages are not low. You are now switching to talking about the economy as a whole and not sectors.

But still, across all sectors CEO wages are high.

Not only that, you are now comparing UK with US, sadly, ignoring our main European partners who are our key competitors and probably better to compare UK performance against.


Point remains there is an inequitable distribution of income across many vital industries that require skilled labour.

Perfect competition tells us the salaries of skilled labour would rise and thus attract more labour into the industry. This doesn't seem to be happening with nurses and teachers. On the contrary given the training costs and salaries received, it is not worth becoming a nurse or a teacher.

On the contrary, one would expect loads of CEO's given the high salaries but in contrast they are very far and few in number. So that would imply we have a shortage of good qualified CEO's to fill the positions.

However, we all know that really isn't the case is it? One can recruit from outside or promote from within the industry. Hardly a shortage of CEO's.



Government's role is to provide a reliable and consistent environment for free enterprise to perform. Governments are there to serve everybody in the nation, not just those who have voted for them. Your principals are akin to banana republics who execute vindictive policies against sectors that do not vote for them. This is against the principles of our democracy and parliament. More like Boris's government giving hand outs (billion £ contracts to chums) and secretaries). You really are talking about how very dubious and crony government may rule and operate. I can only assume this is about the politicians you favour.

That's some pretty sick beliefs you have. I think the Tories have done far more damage to the UK than anything else the EU could have done. Outside of the EU, I fear British politicians of your breed will simply take the country down further to a banana republic.

If the government could incentivize poor people to use birth control you would have the money to pay policemen. Instead of paying child welfare, the government would have extra spending money.

Teachers / schools should be privatized. Long term, there’s not a government run school that can compete with a private school. If there are parents that have trouble paying, they can receive subsidies to supplement their payments.

Ditto with the healthcare system.

You seem infatuated with the pay of other people. The reason why you are jealous over CEO’s pay is because you do what all busybodies do. You worry about other peoples’ business. You don’t have a say in what CEOs get paid. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you can focus on improving your own success.

I’m happy when other people do well in life. Personally, I think everybody in the world deserves a very rich lifestyle but it’s not going to happen because the world’s population is catastrophically too high and our robotic technology is way too nascent.

As far as inequitable “distribution” of income across industries, are you talking government run organizations or private businesses? Give real life industry examples.

You need a remedial reading course. I never said I supported patronage. I was merely stating a fact on the way governments operate in the world, especially with regards to public unions.

If you think the British government is the only corrupt free government in this world then you need to open your proverbial eyes. Power corrupts !

 

[J Livermore]

If the government could incentivize poor people to use birth control you would have the money to pay policemen. Instead of paying child welfare, the government would have extra spending money.

Teachers / schools should be privatized. Long term, there’s not a government run school that can compete with a private school. If there are parents that have trouble paying, they can receive subsidies to supplement their payments.

Ditto with the healthcare system.

You seem infatuated with the pay of other people. The reason why you are jealous over CEO’s pay is because you do what all busybodies do. You worry about other peoples’ business. You don’t have a say in what CEOs get paid. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you can focus on improving your own success.

I’m happy when other people do well in life. Personally, I think everybody in the world deserves a very rich lifestyle but it’s not going to happen because the world’s population is catastrophically too high and our robotic technology is way too nascent.

As far as inequitable “distribution” of income across industries, are you talking government run organizations or private businesses? Give real life industry examples.

You need a remedial reading course. I never said I supported patronage. I was merely stating a fact on the way governments operate in the world, especially with regards to public unions.

If you think the British government is the only corrupt free government in this world then you need to open your proverbial eyes. Power corrupts !

Atilla,

I got your post in email (sent by T2W) before it was deleted by a moderator. Here is my reply to the message you posted:



I did a little searching for how much it costs to raise a child from birth to 18 in England and came up with this:

Our annual Cost of a Child report this year finds that the overall cost of a child up to age 18 (including rent and childcare) is £185,000 for lone parents (up 19% since 2012) and £151,000 for couples (up 5.5% since 2012).

Multiply that by the number of people who are having children they can’t pay for and you say the money doesn’t add up?!? Come on, do the math. If you don’t count the “free” education and other stuff that the poor get (that other taxpayers pay for) it’s being disingenuous.

I agree with you that children should take care of their elderly parents, however, over a lifetime the elderly should have set aside money for insurance that covers end of life care.

If a doctor were in private practice they could set their own fee. End of story.

If birth control fails, giving babies up for adoption when their parents can’t afford them should be a logical first step. I don’t encounter too many people these days who raise that point.

I support the government helping disabled people and agree with you on going after cheaters.

There is no such thing as a fair wage. Never has been. Never will be. If the employer and the job seeker can’t come to an agreement then the job isn’t filled.

I want the majority of government functions to occur on the municipal or state level. Where is it written that a federal government has to be a wishing machine that fulfills peoples’ needs?

I never wrote a post calling for everything to be privatized. Prove it through a quote. If you can. The separation of school and state should be as sacred as the separation of church and state. Having a government influencing children what to think or believe is just as corrupt as having a state sponsored religion.

 

[counter_violent]

1 month in and we have a quite predictable total disaster of a PM.

For starters, Rishi would not have gone down the tax cutting, fiscally irresponsible route.

She isn't wired up right, as the vid montage demonstrates.