UK Politics

Times, indeed ,are changing. When I went first went to sea British ships dominated the trade routes. Now, British ships are registered everywhere, except the UK. P&O, Cunard all trade under foreign flags and the number of foreign going ships can be counted on the fingers of one hand. I wonder what has happened to those seafaring communities?


I blame the stupid politicians for not moving with the times. Was it too costly to register British ships in Britain. Or too many red tape hurdles ? Whatever the reason it just illustrates how very inadequate the system is.
Much the same for manufacturing I suppose. We don't produce many cars now for instance, just a few exotics like Morgans and assemble others' products. And why ?

Britain has sort of calcified over the centuries into a muddled old mess. An easy target for competitors to beat.

Many of our best properties are owned by foreigners. We have to make do generally with very secondary housing. We seem to have lost faith in our own leaders or the worthwhile ones are not getting to the top much. The rubbishers and detractors often lie to discredit the people with talent.
 
Manufacturing continues in the UK despite everything in the Daily Mail. In fact, its growing. The UK is the world’s eighth largest industrial nation: if current growth trends continue, the UK will break into the top five by 2021.

Of course, much manufacturing has moved abroad, and not uniquely due to foreign take-overs - for example, Dyson of all people moved most of its production to Malaysia in 2002.


Hi Tomorton,

Thank you for that update and I am pleasantly surprised and stand corrected. Didn't realise we were still 8th in the World. :)

Two points where we could be considerably stronger and I would argue should be, is that manufacturing as a % of UK GDP has shrunk. In relation to Germany we are smaller but same as France. I would hazard a guess France and UK being 4th and 5th on the production of WMDs, a large part of those manufacturing stats is to do with the military.

The numbers are also in dollars and so pound having a higher weighting due to service and finance sector contribution to BoP, over values manufacturing output.

UK manufacturing is in decline over the longer time frame and we aren't very good at converting R&D advantage into consumer products. I feel military defence budgets and demand for best resources take away from what's left to main consumer manufacturing sectors.


This has been the case since 1850 and I don't see any change. For example we don't have a motor industry, and so we will not be able to participate in the driverless car revolution when it does arrive. Same argument for satellites. Same for farming, shipping and other robotics. Selling off our industries certainly doesn't help and removes future potential ability to participate in the implementation of new technologies or their utilisation. Ultimately UK ends up selling the know how. Pilkington's glass manufacturing is another point in example. Toughened and photovoltaic glass is much in demand and who owns Pilkington's today?

Established in 1826.
HQ in St Helens UK
Germany central organisation hub
Wholly owned subsidiary of NSG Group (Japanese)

No investment, no future vision. Sell company, get investment, run production else where.

Wash, rinse repeat.
 
Cheers Atilla. Specific examples can support any argument - but where's the evidence foreign financed take-overs are bad for the UK economy as a whole?
 
Cheers Atilla. Specific examples can support any argument - but where's the evidence foreign financed take-overs are bad for the UK economy as a whole?


How can they possibly be good if the company probably moves abroad and then pays taxes abroad. Plus job opportunities are less for young Brits. Arm Holdings Ltd is a good example. Try and get your head out of the globalisation dream. That is only for efficient economies.
 
I blame the stupid politicians for not moving with the times. Was it too costly to register British ships in Britain. Or too many red tape hurdles ? Whatever the reason it just illustrates how very inadequate the system is.
Much the same for manufacturing I suppose. We don't produce many cars now for instance, just a few exotics like Morgans and assemble others' products. And why ?

Britain has sort of calcified over the centuries into a muddled old mess. An easy target for competitors to beat.

Many of our best properties are owned by foreigners. We have to make do generally with very secondary housing. We seem to have lost faith in our own leaders or the worthwhile ones are not getting to the top much. The rubbishers and detractors often lie to discredit the people with talent.


I think it is a deliberate power struggle by the global elites:

Politically and democratically we have been subverted and submitted to political correctness, human rights, common purpose, ECJ, socialism, loss of conservatism, mass migration, surveillance state, nanny state, punitive taxes, inefficient bureaucracy in public services, globalism, massive waste of taxes, rise in violent crime, political mistakes, political deceit, democratic deceit, changes to education system, reduction in physical exercise, subversion of the press/media, lack of strong leadership, undermining rule of law, favouritism, elitism, lack of transparency, cover-ups, expenses scandals, lowering of moral, subversion of judicial process, breakdown of society, child sex crimes, breakdown of traditional values, breakdown of the family unit, loss of trust in institutions, changes in culture, and so on...all of which affects every aspect of our lives, society, culture, working practices and education.

You see now the attacks on satire, comedy, comedy is almost dead. The hard left want to shutdown and no platform anything or anyone with an alternative view to theirs, we have been steadily descending into an Orwellian Utopia that seems to be accelerating.

It's not just us, it's happened/happening throughout the Western world, Europe, Oz, NZ, Canada, USA. It's an ongoing, creeping change, what it will morph into, who knows, will there be an end point or will it just continue to decline further.

What will rise to counter this, you already see a rise in a counter culture type of movement, new political parties, new political movements, demonstrations and counter-demo's, alternative media, changing governments in Europe.

A big power struggle is just starting, like any power struggle it diverts resources away from progress in education and industry and makes ordinary people suffer, lets hope it doesn't end in outbreaks of violence, although we already see this on the streets on a daily basis in one form or another.

Fascinating, yet apprehensive times to be living through!
 
How can they possibly be good if the company probably moves abroad and then pays taxes abroad. Plus job opportunities are less for young Brits. Arm Holdings Ltd is a good example. Try and get your head out of the globalisation dream. That is only for efficient economies.


How many times Pat?

The British owners of ARM would have received a massive amount in excess of the set-up costs which they can then invest in other existing or new UK companies. In any case, many foreign take-overs do not lead to re-location of jobs out of the UK.

Plus, even if you can find a dozen examples to support your argument and I find a dozen to support mine, that's insufficient evidence on which to base new legislation. Where is your evidence that foreign acquisitions are bad for the UK economy as a whole?
 
How many times Pat?

The British owners of ARM would have received a massive amount in excess of the set-up costs which they can then invest in other existing or new UK companies. In any case, many foreign take-overs do not lead to re-location of jobs out of the UK.

Plus, even if you can find a dozen examples to support your argument and I find a dozen to support mine, that's insufficient evidence on which to base new legislation. Where is your evidence that foreign acquisitions are bad for the UK economy as a whole?

The answer is in the competitive position of the UK wrt our closest neighbours Germany and France.

BoP has to be KPI.

Considering the current account is compensated for by service and finance sector, is another more specific KPI.

I think our membership, partnership and position in EU with Brexit conundrum will soon crystallise this debate into sharper focus. :rolleyes:
 
How many times Pat?

The British owners of ARM would have received a massive amount in excess of the set-up costs which they can then invest in other existing or new UK companies. In any case, many foreign take-overs do not lead to re-location of jobs out of the UK.

Plus, even if you can find a dozen examples to support your argument and I find a dozen to support mine, that's insufficient evidence on which to base new legislation. Where is your evidence that foreign acquisitions are bad for the UK economy as a whole?

It has next to nothing much to do with set up costs. It is all to do with the present ( they were doing extremly well ) and future prospects as they constantly added value to the company.
The pathetic British politicians just let it go without so much as a murmur.
I am surprised an intelligent person like yourself can't see that.
 
It has next to nothing much to do with set up costs. It is all to do with the present ( they were doing extremly well ) and future prospects as they constantly added value to the company.
The pathetic British politicians just let it go without so much as a murmur.
I am surprised an intelligent person like yourself can't see that.


What I see is a considerable chunk of money going to the British ARM owners which they can then invest in the UK, creating even more jobs and more productivity for the country. I see the owners of an asset exercising their legitimate right to maximise the return on their investment. I see the wider group British investors failing to appreciate the inherent value within ARM and letting themselves be bested by more astute foreign investors: I'd rather work for and invest in the astute guy in business rather than some guy with a similar same accent to mine.

And finally I see lots of hard evidence that foreign acquisitions are long-term and overall beneficial for the target company's country.

What don't I see? I don't see your evidence that it would be good for Britain to ban foreign take-overs.
 
What I see is a considerable chunk of money going to the British ARM owners which they can then invest in the UK, creating even more jobs and more productivity for the country. I see the owners of an asset exercising their legitimate right to maximise the return on their investment. I see the wider group British investors failing to appreciate the inherent value within ARM and letting themselves be bested by more astute foreign investors: I'd rather work for and invest in the astute guy in business rather than some guy with a similar same accent to mine.

And finally I see lots of hard evidence that foreign acquisitions are long-term and overall beneficial for the target company's country.

What don't I see? I don't see your evidence that it would be good for Britain to ban foreign take-overs.


Your question is not an easy one to answer.

Effectively you are suggesting, opportunity cost of ARM ownership is greater than returns on potential investments that can be achieved by transferring funds to other areas!

It is also very difficult to demonstrate if not impossible what/if revenues that could have been attained if ARM was still in UK ownership.

Similarly, if a foreign entity believes it can demonstrate greater returns from purchasing ARM business, which British owners feel they can't attain leads to two possible conclusions; Foreign management are better at driving returns on investment than British ones or simply that ARM owners feel, offer on table represents fair value and they prefer to take the money and do something else.

These are just pure economics which one can quote but they do not take into considering many other national and social factors. Being a free market capitalist nor should they as it is not the companies concern to look at social or environments factors.

This is where the disconnect comes into the picture between Government, country, nation and individual interest.

Tough question to answer. In fact I'd say your question is impossible to answer other than looking at long term capability of UK.

One another counter question to ponder - so what's happened to industries up North and why no replenishment of new companies? :whistling
 
Your question is not an easy one to answer.

Effectively you are suggesting, opportunity cost of ARM ownership is greater than returns on potential investments that can be achieved by transferring funds to other areas!

It is also very difficult to demonstrate if not impossible what/if revenues that could have been attained if ARM was still in UK ownership.

Similarly, if a foreign entity believes it can demonstrate greater returns from purchasing ARM business, which British owners feel they can't attain leads to two possible conclusions; Foreign management are better at driving returns on investment than British ones or simply that ARM owners feel, offer on table represents fair value and they prefer to take the money and do something else.

These are just pure economics which one can quote but they do not take into considering many other national and social factors. Being a free market capitalist nor should they as it is not the companies concern to look at social or environments factors.

This is where the disconnect comes into the picture between Government, country, nation and individual interest.

Tough question to answer. In fact I'd say your question is impossible to answer other than looking at long term capability of UK.

One another counter question to ponder - so what's happened to industries up North and why no replenishment of new companies? :whistling


Not easy to answer if you bring in these unquantifiable and subjective factors. But my starting point is if there's no evidence foreign take-overs are bad for the UK economy whereas there is lots of evidence in favour of cross-border acquisitions benefitting the target country's economy, banning them would definitely be bad.
 
Not easy to answer if you bring in these unquantifiable and subjective factors. But my starting point is if there's no evidence foreign take-overs are bad for the UK economy whereas there is lots of evidence in favour of cross-border acquisitions benefitting the target country's economy, banning them would definitely be bad.


Hmmm wondering what this is about?

Motor industry run by Japanese and French better than we can manage?

OR

Is that because UK guv gives lots of discounts and light touch environment for other businesses to have a foot in EU?


Do you have any pointers to the evidence?
 
I think we are wasting time and effort. Tom is convinced by his own arguments and that sadly is that.

The point you make below Attila is a bit dodgy.


These are just pure economics which one can quote but they do not take into considering many other national and social factors. Being a free market capitalist nor should they as it is not the companies concern to look at social or environments factors.


The fact that capitalists do not care about social or environmental factors is to me disgraceful. We all live on this one planet and it shouldn't be trashed by Trump and capitalists just for money.
 
Hmmm wondering what this is about?

Motor industry run by Japanese and French better than we can manage?

OR

Is that because UK guv gives lots of discounts and light touch environment for other businesses to have a foot in EU?


Do you have any pointers to the evidence?


There's lots of evidence available and I would put up the results of my Google searches if Pat puts up his evidence - he's the one who wants the law changing, I'm happy with how it is.

But in any case, we've all had experience how inept British management is compared to other countries, and how timid are our investors are. Maybe some of the British companies taken over by foreign capital would have failed anyway: statistically, that can't be ruled out.
 
I think we are wasting time and effort. Tom is convinced by his own arguments and that sadly is that.

The point you make below Attila is a bit dodgy.


These are just pure economics which one can quote but they do not take into considering many other national and social factors. Being a free market capitalist nor should they as it is not the companies concern to look at social or environments factors.


The fact that capitalists do not care about social or environmental factors is to me disgraceful. We all live on this one planet and it shouldn't be trashed by Trump and capitalists just for money.


As a capitalist I certainly do care about environmental and social issues. Its just that I believe a stronger economy would help us address these more effectively and sooner. Maybe its back to the old analogy of do we want a bigger slice of a smaller pie or a bigger pie.
 
There's lots of evidence available and I would put up the results of my Google searches if Pat puts up his evidence - he's the one who wants the law changing, I'm happy with how it is.

But in any case, we've all had experience how inept British management is compared to other countries, and how timid are our investors are. Maybe some of the British companies taken over by foreign capital would have failed anyway: statistically, that can't be ruled out.

Statistically, they may have continued for another century as well. Pilkington's toughened glass is used through out the world on new buildings. Cheaper than building a wall. Who could have guessed. That's the point any conjecture is hypothetical as we'll never know how it may have turned out.

There is a smart alek response which the intellectuals speak of but it's smugness which doesn't get us anywhere.

British Leyland is a perfect example. They went down the pan due to lack of investment in new technologies, R&D investment on reliability and design. Of course management along with Mrs T blamed the unions. Weakest of the factors of input.

You ask anyone and no one will say Mrs T stopped 500m subsidy and refused to look at how to turn around company with a new management task force. But they'll tell you closed workshop practice and unions maintaining wage parity took the company down.

Anyone remember Princess car for execs. Who ever came up with that idea must have been pissed.

Then there was the TR7 for US market that didn't have a convertible top model.

Basic market research rookie errors. Where were management or initiatives to save company?

What did Mrs T do with the 500m saving. Give it away in company cars perks which were an allowable expense and thus tax efficient. Build more freaking roads at high cost run down public transport hiking prices up. Hey presto here we are today.

Pure bleeding capitalists. Dumb stupid ignorant lacking forward vision leaders.


I think that's enough of a rant for today. :)
 

Like most of these garments , one strikes lucky, or not. I have a pair of Burberry trousers that have lasted for years.But I bought one of their raincoats and it proved to be sheer rubbish. Being 86, I sympathise with the writer of that article and I buy to be used and worn out. Another mark I used to buy, which is a "good" name are Clarks Shoes. They are popular in Spain because they are English, but they are made somewhere east of India. I had a pair of these sturdy looking shoes and, when having supper with friends one evening, I felt them both coming apart under the table. I looked and the uppers and lowers were wide apart with my socks hanging out the front like a dog's tongue. Fortunately, I was with friends who, like me, saw the funny side of it and my hostess, a practical type of woman, bound them up with tape so that I could get home.

Now, my shoes are strictly budget price and a bought for about a year's use,ie. every day including Sunday.
 
Like most of these garments , one strikes lucky, or not. I have a pair of Burberry trousers that have lasted for years.But I bought one of their raincoats and it proved to be sheer rubbish. Being 86, I sympathise with the writer of that article and I buy to be used and worn out. Another mark I used to buy, which is a "good" name are Clarks Shoes. They are popular in Spain because they are English, but they are made somewhere east of India. I had a pair of these sturdy looking shoes and, when having supper with friends one evening, I felt them both coming apart under the table. I looked and the uppers and lowers were wide apart with my socks hanging out the front like a dog's tongue. Fortunately, I was with friends who, like me, saw the funny side of it and my hostess, a practical type of woman, bound them up with tape so that I could get home.

Now, my shoes are strictly budget price and a bought for about a year's use,ie. every day including Sunday.

Split – you've highlighted the retail cons that have been foisted on the consumer over the years. Clarks shoes when they were produced in this country were of top-quality (luckily I bought several pairs at knockdown prices when they were closing down the UK factories) – they are now produced abroad cheaply and at lower quality and are rubbish. But newcomers arrive e.g. Rieker, a German firm that produces really good quality shoes at sensible prices for the whole of Europe. There are other quality British retail names that are still with us but are now of decidedly indifferent quality e.g. Marks & Spencer, Sainsbury's, Russell-Hobbs. It seems very common in the retail/consumer trade to buy up old respected quality British names and put them on cheaply produced (sometimes decent/sometimes rubbish) products made elsewhere. I don't have a problem with that – it's reasonably easy to see what's worth paying for. It just irritates me that the retail trade is quite happy to con many of its customers that they are buying good old-fashioned British quality (and paying for it) and getting just run-of-the-mill stuff instead.

But it's the oldest retail trick in trade isn't it? – Do what Burberry have done: create a demand for something that's produced very cheaply and charge the earth for it. The makers/sellers of smartphones have done pretty well in that respect also!
 

Similar threads

Top