Article The Value of Coaching And The Difficulty in Finding One

PKFFW

Established member
535 140
SOCRATES said:
Because I have laid it all out in very great detail and very clearly indeed.

And because I am not interested in engaging in any further tit for tat argument, as I have more important and satisfying things to do.

And because you bore me to tears, frankly.
Come now Socrates, you and I both know that you have not laid out anything at all. You certainly have not done so in any clear or detailed way either. If fact you repeatedly proclaim you will not lay anything out for anyone as you have learnt your lesson and have now decided to clam up and never again bless us with your pearls of wisdom.

You have made sweeping generalisations backed up with nothing. You have proclaimed your experience to be the only valid one. You have said my perspective is back to front and "external" but refused to explain yourself when I have pointed out that my point was undeniable fact.

You have argued that success requires extreme dedication, work and diligence in order to change one's very core being and personality. Then you contradict yourself by egotisticaly claiming traders are born and not made. Suggesting that only a blessed few born with the inherent greatness have a chance of success. When asked to explain you spout some garbage about only a select few are able to change themselves easily and it is these that can be traders. Anyone can change, some more easily than others. When it is shown clearly in black and white rather than verbosely in purple it is clear your deep profundity is rather self evident to all.

At that point you retire and proclaim you can not argue your own point.

So where is the detail? Actually don't bother answering that as we both already know there is no detail.

By the way, tit for tat suggests an equality. Whilst I'm flattered you consider me your equal, I can't say the same for you. I have attempted to answer your points as directly as I can. You on the other hand continually ignore any of my points and questions that you find too hard to argue rationally against.

Cheerio,
PKFFW
 

PKFFW

Established member
535 140
sandpiper said:
PKFFW,

I'm struggling to see why you're bothering since you are obviously on a hiding to nothing ;)

One of the difficulties here of course is that different people have different ideas of what success means. There are a great many levels of accomplishment between master and **** wit. My own experience is that under normal circumstances, those at the top of the tree rarely, if ever, have cause to see things from the perspective of those of us lower down, but then why should they? Why should they be asked to contemplate any definition of success other than their own? Why should they be called upon explain any route to success other than the one they took?

The sharp-end of the financial services industry, and by that I don't just mean trading, is full of **** holes. Some incredibly talented, some not quite so talented. But once you get to the highest levels you pretty much observe the same characteristics across the board.

Were the circumstances surrounding your current exchange more formal you might have been told (as I was once by the head of fixed income in large IB) to "**** off and If I have anything to do with it you'll never work in the city again". However, since this isn't a formalised environment, we can fool ourselves into thinking that less than formal rules of engagement, etiquette and dialogue apply.

This board, and boards like it, sometimes present us with a unique opportunity when it comes to exchanging views with and obtaining insights from market professionals. Unfortunately I think, a side effect of that is we tend to start to believe that it's a level playing field with open access to all and that there is somehow a right of passage. Needless to say it isn't and there isn't.

Regards
Hiding to nothing? If you are suggesting Socrates has nothing to offer then I feel that is likely correct.

My point has never been about the definition of success. My point is that it is simply wrong to assume that how one achieved success in this game is the only way for anyone to achieve success. To assume the trials and tribulations along the way must, and will, be the same for all. That what one found difficult, all must find difficult. That if another has not walked the same path as oneself then they must not have achieved the same level of success.

Further to that, I have never asked Socrates to explain any other path to success. I have not even asked him to explain his path to success. I am not interested in that. I have merely attempted to guide him towards the realisation that his way can not be the only way. If it was, then no one else on earth would be able to achieve success in this game. We are all different and hence his way will not work for anyone but himself. Now surely even Socrates can admit others on this planet have achieved success in this game of trading. As such, his allusion toward being some all knowing god like figure that can see exactly where anyone else is on this "obstacle course to success" is simply ego talking.

For someone who admonishes others to give up the ego on such a regular basis, it is ironic that Socrates seems so incapable of giving up his own. It is only the ego that would have us believe that our path is the only path. That our success is the only success. That our trials, experiences and hardships are the only trials, experiences and hardships. It is only the ego that would have us argue so vehemently against any opposing view. To dismiss that opposing view out of hand. To deride any who would dare suggest another idea. It is only the ego that would then have us retreat into a facade of arrogance and disinterest when it is made apparent that our point of view may not be the only valid or correct one.

I think deep down Socrates already knows this. Ego is a strong influence though. Once we have made statements we often feel compelled to stick by those statements. To argue them even when their obvious shortcomings are pointed out. Our ego refuses to admit we could be in error. We may have overstated our position.

Not to worry, I'm sure if he applies himself as he advises all others to, he will get there in the end.

Cheers,
PKFFW
 
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sandpiper

Well-known member
458 54
PKFFW said:
Hiding to nothing? If you are suggesting Socrates has nothing to offer then I feel that is likely correct.

My point has never been about the definition of success. My point is that it is simply wrong to assume that how one achieved success in this game is the only way for anyone to achieve success. To assume the trials and tribulations along the way must, and will, be the same for all. That what one found difficult, all must find difficult. That if another has not walked the same path as oneself then they must not have achieved the same level of success.

Further to that, I have never asked Socrates to explain any other path to success. I have not even asked him to explain his path to success. I am not interested in that. I have merely attempted to guide him towards the realisation that his way can not be the only way. If it was, then no one else on earth would be able to achieve success in this game. We are all different and hence his way will not work for anyone but himself. Now surely even Socrates can admit others on this planet have achieved success in this game of trading. As such, his allusion toward being some all knowing god like figure that can see exactly where anyone else is on this "obstacle course to success" is simply ego talking.

For someone who admonishes others to give up the ego on such a regular basis, it is ironic that Socrates seems so incapable of giving up his own. It is only the ego that would have us believe that our path is the only path. That our success is the only success. That our trials, experiences and hardships are the only trials, experiences and hardships. It is only the ego that would have us argue so vehemently against any opposing view. To dismiss that opposing view out of hand. To deride any who would dare suggest another idea. It is only the ego that would then have us retreat into a facade of arrogance and disinterest when it is made apparent that our point of view may not be the only valid or correct one.

I think deep down Socrates already knows this. Ego is a strong influence though. Once we have made statements we often feel compelled to stick by those statements. To argue them even when their obvious shortcomings are pointed out. Our ego refuses to admit we could be in error. We may have overstated our position.

Not to worry, I'm sure if he applies himself as he advises all others to, he will get there in the end.

Cheers,
PKFFW
PKFFW,

Your well crafted retort demands that I explain myself further I suppose.

By hiding to nothing I meant that you've decided for yourself (by whatever means) what it is that you want, indeed what it is that you need and it's obvious at this point that Socrates isn't going to give it to you. So why waste the energy?

You're right in that you have never asked for any other route to success to be explained or even asked for him to explain his path. Actually, my comment was more of a general one rather than being explicitly directed at you. Nevertheless, I apologise for that. You are however asking that he acknowledge that there are other paths, that his may not be the only way, etc. Why? Is it important to you that he acknowledge the validity of your own path or just just other non-specific paths in general? Why do you need this acceptance? You quite rightly mention others on this planet who have achieved success in this game of trading. However, do you suppose that they need to be accepted, to have their achievements acknowledged (er, actually some of them do but that's a different story....).

Finally, I can't dispute the points you make are regarding ego. However, in my opinion, it's a fallacy to think that successful traders or, for that matter, successful professionals in any of a number of fields, are without ego. My experience with regards to traders is that they just somehow manage to shut it in a box when required.

Regards
 
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PKFFW

Established member
535 140
sandpiper said:
PKFFW,

Your well crafted retort demands that I explain myself further I suppose.

By hiding to nothing I meant that you've decided for yourself (by whatever means) what it is that you want, indeed what it is that you need and it's obvious at this point that Socrates isn't going to give it to you. So why waste the energy?

You're right in that you have never asked for any other route to success to be explained or even asked for him to explain his path. Actually, my comment was more of a general one rather than being explicitly directed at you. Nevertheless, I apologise for that. You are however asking that he acknowledge that there are other paths, that his may not be the only way, etc. Why? Is it important to you that he acknowledge the validity of your own path or just just other non-specific paths in general? Why do you need this acceptance? You quite rightly mention others on this planet who have achieved success in this game of trading. However, do you suppose that they need to be accepted, to have their achievements acknowledged (er, actually some of them do but that's a different story....).

Finally, I can't dispute the points you make are regarding ego. However, in my opinion, it's a fallacy to think that successful traders or, for that matter, successful professionals in any of a number of fields, are without ego. My experience with regards to traders is that they just somehow manage to shut it in a box when required.

Regards
Didn't mean my reply to seem like a "retort" to you sandpiper. You asked questions, I replied. I did not take your post personally or have the idea that you were having a go at me. No malice was intended in my reply.

Why am I wasting the energy you ask. It is certainly not for socrates' approval or acceptance. In fact, as I freely admit to not yet being a successful trader I can't even begin to desire acceptance of my unachieved success.

I debate the matter with socrates because, for good or ill, I detest hypocracy. socrates exudes hypocracy. He admonishes others to give up ego and yet is clearly wrapped up in his own ego. For good or ill I detest arogance and socrates has this quality in abundance as well. When these two qualities combine and are directed at me it gets up my goat and I "waste energy" in pointing out the flaws in the others point of view. It especially gets up my goat when those qualities are combined with generalistic assumptions formed about me from something other than the writings of my post. At the very least on a forum board one should deal with what is written and not with ones own assumptions about the other person.

So yes, I agree, it is a waste of energy and a hiding no nothing as socrates will never admit his point of view is clearly and undeniably incorrect. However, the fact that once this is pointed out causes him to retreat and proclaim he can not argue his own point is enough for me.

Lastly, I do not expect anyone to be without ego. Ego is a part of being human. What I expect is that one should acknowledge ones own ego and gain some sort of control over it before advising others that they can not be as successful as oneself until they control their own ego. If one were to do that, then the arrogance problem would resolve itself as well. If that is too hard then at the very least one should not direct ones malice in my direction unless it is warrented by something I have specifically posted.

Cheers,
PKFFW
 

punter99

Junior member
32 2
PKFFW said:
Didn't mean my reply to seem like a "retort" to you sandpiper. You asked questions, I replied. I did not take your post personally or have the idea that you were having a go at me. No malice was intended in my reply.

Why am I wasting the energy you ask. It is certainly not for socrates' approval or acceptance. In fact, as I freely admit to not yet being a successful trader I can't even begin to desire acceptance of my unachieved success.

I debate the matter with socrates because, for good or ill, I detest hypocracy. socrates exudes hypocracy. He admonishes others to give up ego and yet is clearly wrapped up in his own ego. For good or ill I detest arogance and socrates has this quality in abundance as well. When these two qualities combine and are directed at me it gets up my goat and I "waste energy" in pointing out the flaws in the others point of view. It especially gets up my goat when those qualities are combined with generalistic assumptions formed about me from something other than the writings of my post. At the very least on a forum board one should deal with what is written and not with ones own assumptions about the other person.

So yes, I agree, it is a waste of energy and a hiding no nothing as socrates will never admit his point of view is clearly and undeniably incorrect. However, the fact that once this is pointed out causes him to retreat and proclaim he can not argue his own point is enough for me.

Lastly, I do not expect anyone to be without ego. Ego is a part of being human. What I expect is that one should acknowledge ones own ego and gain some sort of control over it before advising others that they can not be as successful as oneself until they control their own ego. If one were to do that, then the arrogance problem would resolve itself as well. If that is too hard then at the very least one should not direct ones malice in my direction unless it is warrented by something I have specifically posted.

Cheers,
PKFFW
Having just read this whole thread, I find it interesting, how Socrates pontificates ad nauseum about the inabilities of newbies, but when challenged on his own pronouncements, he clams up. Well done PKFFW for the exposure of the egotistical elite.

Eddie
 

SOCRATES

Veteren member
4,966 134
punter99 said:
Having just read this whole thread, I find it interesting, how Socrates pontificates ad nauseum about the inabilities of newbies, but when challenged on his own pronouncements, he clams up. Well done PKFFW for the exposure of the egotistical elite.

Eddie
..:rolleyes:
 

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