The fate of a trader

[Paul71]

I'm afraid I totally do not see myself in your post at all Tom !

My motto in life has always been finding a balance between achieving financial success, and having the most fun I possibly can, while trying to do more good than bad.

And don't get me wrong, financial success for me doesn't mean just a great salary, I want to go all the way.

But I have never thought that hard work had anything to do with achieving outstanding success, and to date that has most definitely proven true for myself.

I sleep in, I don't stare at the screens the whole day, I don't dream of markets or check em at night, I party hard on weekends when I can and couldn't care less where markets open on Mondays.

Everything in life is down to your personal choice.

And my choice was to get the best of both worlds.

I totally enjoy my work when I'm doing it - by far the best job in the world imo - but when I'm not working, when I've achieved my targets for the day I'll go out and have a good time, go for a good brisk walk somewhere to get the min 30 minutes exercise our bodies need to remain functional, go for a nice drive, go hang out in Starbucks, browse through book stores, just have a good time in other words, and on weekends go for drinks and clubs etc.

Everything in life is a choice, and as far as I'm aware the most successful achivers are always those who take things seriously enough, but play them lightly, for these people things come with far less effort than for the fighters, fighting just causes your actions to be met by reactions, let go on the other hand, float along down the path of least resistance and in tune with the natural ebb and flow of life and its offers, and far greater things will start happening with very little effort indeed.

Now why does this post make me think about, Howard Hughes?

 

[BSD]

Hehe, general idea that Paul.



Great movie they made out of his life:

 

[MitchT]

Great thread. Here’s my angle…

I got into trading (spread betting) because I liked the idea of becoming financially independent. I’ve always wanted to be my own boss and to work on my own doing something that takes advantage of my natural skills. Some years ago the company that I work for employed a management consultant to work with teams of staff to identify their strengths and weaknesses. At the end of the project I had identified what I expected – that I want to be responsible for myself, that I like to be left alone to get on with things and that I am highly analytical and methodical. This reinforced my belief that I should pursue my interest in trading.

I have never been a particularly social person – I find myself ill at ease in groups of people – always the one who’s left out in the cold struggling to join-in with group conversations and with the enduring sense that making myself heard among a group is an insurmountable task. I always quickly default to my naturally withdrawn state and find myself most at ease with my own thoughts. Furthermore, I’ve always been hopeless at making relationships with members of the opposite sex and have no desire to have children and very little desire to get married, so really a life of trading wouldn’t require me to sacrifice anything that I’m not getting anyway.

I started spread betting about five years ago, initially opening a demo account and doubling my virtual money in three months. I then put £1,000 into my account and started trading for real. Since then I found trading a struggle with emotions and information-overload getting in the way. Today I have £979 of the original £1,000, having been as high as £1,300 and as low as £440. One of the main problems I’ve encountered was information overload - I opened an account with IG Index a while back and quickly learned that the great thing about IG is their charts which offer just about every indicator imaginable… And the bad thing about IG is their charts which offer just about every indicator imaginable!!! Eventually I got so confused that I gave up and didn’t trade for months. Only last week, after carefully reading trader_dante’s fantastic thread about making money trading (thanks for taking so much time and effort t_d!) did I start trading again… and I used my ETX Capital (formerly TradIndex) account and Big Charts to manage my trade – I didn’t bother with IG’s wonderful (but overly elaborate for where I’m at right now) platform. I used t_d’s system to short the Nasdaq, opening a position last Thursday and hitting my target yesterday, taking 85 pips of profit. If I’d left the position open I’d have made quite a bit more, but what really pleases me is that I don’t regret in the slightest closing at my target, and I take heart from the fact that I’ve gained sufficient control of my emotions to be in this state.

So I feel that I’m well cut-out for trading. I want to trade because it interests me, and because it sits well with my desire to be my own boss, to be financially independent, and to work alone, and I now feel that I’ve finally cultivated the ‘mind’ element to a point where I can start to make steady profits and move towards the day when I can give up the ‘day job’. I can’t think of any occupation that better fits with my idea of a perfect job… Something where I work alone, am my own boss, am not responsible for anyone else or their security, can work where I want geographically, am not weighed-down by legislation as I would be if I had staff, do not have physical stock to store and shift… It really is what I WANT to do with my life, so I can’t see a sacrifice in doing it.

 

[alexa]

I agree with earlier poster about EXPECTATIONS. Most problems in life are actually from us or people or work etc not meeting our expectations. So is with trading. We come in with huge expectations of false promises and so get dissapointed veru fast. But it all comes with time, reading Trading Psychology material (I know many people think this is nothing to do with trading as they just want to "make money" ) and learning on people's mistakes. This is a great forum and many genuine people who offer help.

 

[0007]

Great thread. Here’s my angle…

I got into trading (spread betting) because I liked the idea of becoming financially independent. I’ve always wanted to be my own boss and to work on my own doing something that takes advantage of my natural skills. Some years ago the company that I work for employed a management consultant to work with teams of staff to identify their strengths and weaknesses. At the end of the project I had identified what I expected – that I want to be responsible for myself, that I like to be left alone to get on with things and that I am highly analytical and methodical. This reinforced my belief that I should pursue my interest in trading.

I have never been a particularly social person – I find myself ill at ease in groups of people – always the one who’s left out in the cold struggling to join-in with group conversations and with the enduring sense that making myself heard among a group is an insurmountable task. I always quickly default to my naturally withdrawn state and find myself most at ease with my own thoughts. Furthermore, I’ve always been hopeless at making relationships with members of the opposite sex and have no desire to have children and very little desire to get married, so really a life of trading wouldn’t require me to sacrifice anything that I’m not getting anyway.

I started spread betting about five years ago, initially opening a demo account and doubling my virtual money in three months. I then put £1,000 into my account and started trading for real. Since then I found trading a struggle with emotions and information-overload getting in the way. Today I have £979 of the original £1,000, having been as high as £1,300 and as low as £440. One of the main problems I’ve encountered was information overload - I opened an account with IG Index a while back and quickly learned that the great thing about IG is their charts which offer just about every indicator imaginable… And the bad thing about IG is their charts which offer just about every indicator imaginable!!! Eventually I got so confused that I gave up and didn’t trade for months. Only last week, after carefully reading trader_dante’s fantastic thread about making money trading (thanks for taking so much time and effort t_d!) did I start trading again… and I used my ETX Capital (formerly TradIndex) account and Big Charts to manage my trade – I didn’t bother with IG’s wonderful (but overly elaborate for where I’m at right now) platform. I used t_d’s system to short the Nasdaq, opening a position last Thursday and hitting my target yesterday, taking 85 pips of profit. If I’d left the position open I’d have made quite a bit more, but what really pleases me is that I don’t regret in the slightest closing at my target, and I take heart from the fact that I’ve gained sufficient control of my emotions to be in this state.

So I feel that I’m well cut-out for trading. I want to trade because it interests me, and because it sits well with my desire to be my own boss, to be financially independent, and to work alone, and I now feel that I’ve finally cultivated the ‘mind’ element to a point where I can start to make steady profits and move towards the day when I can give up the ‘day job’. I can’t think of any occupation that better fits with my idea of a perfect job… Something where I work alone, am my own boss, am not responsible for anyone else or their security, can work where I want geographically, am not weighed-down by legislation as I would be if I had staff, do not have physical stock to store and shift… It really is what I WANT to do with my life, so I can’t see a sacrifice in doing it.

I can identify with this post - especially the bits about being independent-minded and analytical. I think these are essential qualities for a successful trader (and many other things for that matter). Info overload is one of the biggest hindrances to success in my experience - the simpler I keep it the better I do.

You're on the right road IMHO. Good luck - though good traders don't depend on it.

 

[daveyboy2005]

Well after lurking for 3 years it's time for me to say something.

As a beginner trader there comes a point I believe where you have to make a big commitment. Over 2 years ago after a period of learning I needed to make this commitment as I wanted to day trade. For me this meant giving up my well (above average) paid job and taking my savings and committing my time and energy and hard-earned cash to my new business. For me, this commitment is what turned into obsession.

The huge commitment has led me to choosing trading over friends on a number of occasions and has led to me not being able to afford to go to important events like my cousin’s wedding abroad, because I lost the cost of the airfare in 5 minutes one morning…. not really what I was aiming for.

Since I started I have gone through the struggle of finding a system (yes, I’ve tried a lot) and the struggle of conquering myself. Just when you think you’re there the market taps you on the shoulder (or perhaps punches you in the nose) and brings you back down a notch or 10. But you keep on at it.

Now I have come this far (like has been said before me) I wonder if I knew 3 years ago how things would turn out if I’d have made the move to becoming a trader… maybe not. But now I am here will I give up?… certainly not. I enjoy trading and I believe in it. How terrible it would be to let all that time (& money) I spent on trading go to waste by giving up. Don’t get me wrong – I’m not doing this now because I feel I have to justify my actions or make back the money lost, but perhaps once you start down the trading road you do reach a point of no return?

My only problem seems to be myself….. I can look back at my records and see countless trades I shouldn’t have entered turning profitable months into losers. How did I let my hand click on that buy button even though I knew it was the wrong thing to do?

My latest step towards conquering myself is making this post. I’ll try and involve myself more in this trading community and see if it helps.

If and when I conquer myself and I reach my goal of being a consistently profitable, good trader, perhaps the next goal will be to become a non-obsessed trader? But I’m not sure one will work without the other in my case. At least I will be able to afford to the plane ticket to my brother’s wedding then.

 

[alexa]

daveboy, this is so sweet!!!! I wish you all the luck in the world.

 

[daveyboy2005]

Thanks Alexa. I had a bad month & thought it'd be nice to chat to some fellow traders. I feel better already... roll on October.

 

[Adamus]

Mastering trading is like mastering life itself. Once you have found your answer so have you also managed to control and conquer your emotions, perceptions, reactions. There is a different outlook and a very satisfying freedom as you free yourself from chasing money. In fact just being free from the chase is worth more money, than the money itself.

I disagree. Mastering trading is a process you learn just like mastering anything else. Mastering = learning. All these negatives are just symptoms of a bad learning process.

 

[0007]

I disagree. Mastering trading is a process you learn just like mastering anything else. Mastering = learning. All these negatives are just symptoms of a bad learning process.

So why can't we all be Olympic champions or jet fighter pilots?

I'd agree that you can learn to be a reasonably competent trader, but Master?

 

[gamma]

I opened an account with IG Index a while back and quickly learned that the great thing about IG is their charts which offer just about every indicator imaginable… And the bad thing about IG is their charts which offer just about every indicator imaginable!!!

I coul'nt agree more I read on this forum about E.A 'S and signal providers using up to 30 different indicators
Indicators can basically be classed into price action or momentum based and are backward looking ,Most indicators are a variation of the major themes.

At most you need 3 indicators
A momentum based indicator
A price action indicator
and a forward indicator like Fibonacci or Pivots

I set up my indicators and wait T2W is a great forum to frequent while waiting there is always someone to help if you need it, riduclize idiotic posts and there is great humour around.

 

[Market Wizard]

I disagree. Mastering trading is a process you learn just like mastering anything else. Mastering = learning. All these negatives are just symptoms of a bad learning process.

You are right. But the process itself will take you through all this. There is no process with a fixed set of parameters that everyone can follow , it is each to his own experiences.

The market is one place where they will all surface to one extent or another, and you will be forced to deal with them. This is not the market itself but a result of everything that we know and live with everyday.

We all want to have better things, live life a better way and do most of the things we do differntly. Money, work and time are the big restrictions. The markets are perceived as end to all three and opening to freedom. You see everybody thinks ,they can spend some time in the markets, make some money and all their worldy problems will dissappear. Sadly its not like that ,success in the markets will eventually come once you have dealt with all these external matters.

The real learning process you speak of will actally begin now.

Why else would people spend weeks, months even years learning this game without any income. If these are not the reasons most could earn a decent wage in any job.

Just my thoughts.

 

[alexa]

I say only a few make a lot of money trading. And those few bbegan with a lot of funds so could sustain huge market swings without pain. Some can make a living (which most of us normal traders do), with learning, patience and hard work. Master, I don't know what that is. Perhaps someone with a great knoweledge that was put in practice over many years, however, the only "master" traders I knew from my "banking" days are those who make great bonuses from making great trades for the banks/institutions. Abd they are able to do so as they have millions to work with, up to date information and after all it is not their money so there is not a great fear normally. I say normally as when days come like these they will fear of course. Just my 2 cents.

I just hope we all can make a good living.

 

[trader_dante]

I think about this a lot from time to time and sometimes wonder whether the return you want to make is worth the sacrifice taken to get there. But then I guess the answer to that depends on the value you put on money.

 

[Black Swan]

I think about this a lot from time to time and sometimes wonder whether the return you want to make is worth the sacrifice taken to get there. But then I guess the answer to that depends on the value you put on money.

glad you bumped this TD, can't read all the replies until this evening but nice one.

 

[Technically Fundamental]

Seems to me that successful traders swap financial problems for relationship problems. inevitable. It's all about finding the equilibrium.

 

[VingTsunKuen]

Extremes are bad.And TD is talking about extremes in his thread.The path of middle is choice of wise man.
Mine trading mentor used to talk about "grander vision",and i could not agree more whit him.
To make long story short the point is that we all should use trading to feed our "grander vision"
For example mine great passion is Wing Chun(that would be grander vision).One of the reasons why i am trading is to make enough money(to feed mine grander vision) to move from Croatia to L.A. so that i can be a student of Gary Lam.
One other trader that i know trades because he want to be more whit his family.His family is everything to him.That is his grander vision.
If one is trading just to have more and more $$$$$ that is way to doom.
If one is trading because he/she wants to be able to pursuit grander vision/meaning/purpose of his/her life that is the way to go.
Have a life outside a trading world!
Regards,
VTK

 

[advfntrader]

you want to trade for a living and you are £21 down after 5 years !?!?

...mind you at least you're not lost thousands like me

Great thread. Here’s my angle…

I got into trading (spread betting) because I liked the idea of becoming financially independent. I’ve always wanted to be my own boss and to work on my own doing something that takes advantage of my natural skills. Some years ago the company that I work for employed a management consultant to work with teams of staff to identify their strengths and weaknesses. At the end of the project I had identified what I expected – that I want to be responsible for myself, that I like to be left alone to get on with things and that I am highly analytical and methodical. This reinforced my belief that I should pursue my interest in trading.

I have never been a particularly social person – I find myself ill at ease in groups of people – always the one who’s left out in the cold struggling to join-in with group conversations and with the enduring sense that making myself heard among a group is an insurmountable task. I always quickly default to my naturally withdrawn state and find myself most at ease with my own thoughts. Furthermore, I’ve always been hopeless at making relationships with members of the opposite sex and have no desire to have children and very little desire to get married, so really a life of trading wouldn’t require me to sacrifice anything that I’m not getting anyway.

I started spread betting about five years ago, initially opening a demo account and doubling my virtual money in three months. I then put £1,000 into my account and started trading for real. Since then I found trading a struggle with emotions and information-overload getting in the way. Today I have £979 of the original £1,000, having been as high as £1,300 and as low as £440. One of the main problems I’ve encountered was information overload - I opened an account with IG Index a while back and quickly learned that the great thing about IG is their charts which offer just about every indicator imaginable… And the bad thing about IG is their charts which offer just about every indicator imaginable!!! Eventually I got so confused that I gave up and didn’t trade for months. Only last week, after carefully reading trader_dante’s fantastic thread about making money trading (thanks for taking so much time and effort t_d!) did I start trading again… and I used my ETX Capital (formerly TradIndex) account and Big Charts to manage my trade – I didn’t bother with IG’s wonderful (but overly elaborate for where I’m at right now) platform. I used t_d’s system to short the Nasdaq, opening a position last Thursday and hitting my target yesterday, taking 85 pips of profit. If I’d left the position open I’d have made quite a bit more, but what really pleases me is that I don’t regret in the slightest closing at my target, and I take heart from the fact that I’ve gained sufficient control of my emotions to be in this state.

So I feel that I’m well cut-out for trading. I want to trade because it interests me, and because it sits well with my desire to be my own boss, to be financially independent, and to work alone, and I now feel that I’ve finally cultivated the ‘mind’ element to a point where I can start to make steady profits and move towards the day when I can give up the ‘day job’. I can’t think of any occupation that better fits with my idea of a perfect job… Something where I work alone, am my own boss, am not responsible for anyone else or their security, can work where I want geographically, am not weighed-down by legislation as I would be if I had staff, do not have physical stock to store and shift… It really is what I WANT to do with my life, so I can’t see a sacrifice in doing it.

 

[Dinos]

My penneth, there are many reasons we get into trading:-

+ career change
+ wanting to run your own business
+ a chance to make a very nice living
+ No bosses giving insane requests
+ working hours that you want, long or short

etc,etc,etc. It takes a tremendous amount of discpiline to be successful trader imho, not just discipline in trading, but in life where you have to strike that work/pleasure balance. I've traded for full time now for 10 years, and I mean full time in the manner, trading is my only stream of income, I've no desire to make mega bucks at the expense of other important things in my live, eg: a social life, wife and kids, friends etc, but make siginifcantly more than I would "working" for a living.

I did in my initial few years of trading put in many hours, far more than I would have, had I an employer, however, I drew up my trading plan which encompassed my life (personal goals) away from trading as well, I drew up my short, medium and long term aims and goals, and what I had to do to (trading wise) to achieve them. The hard work was being disciplined to stick to that plan, and I wobbled many times and it took a tremendous struggle to get back to it and maintain that discipline, its very easy to lose sight of the world away from the markets. But with time, I mastered it, I got there and having got there I'm more content than I was in the beginning, I identified, 3 products only which I would trade, I studied them and got to know how they performed etc etc, I work now from 7.30 (ish) to 12.30 (4 hours a day) and then go and do something more interesting, trading has just become a job (albiet a rewarding job) that has enabled me to acheive the goals I set out in my initial plan.. . . . Greed, is probably what gets a lot of traders, they want bigger and more quicker and quicker, the more the materilistic things appear, you want bigger and better, etc, its not for me thats for sure, I'm extremely happy and comfortable with my trading career, its provides a (comfortable) means to an end that I and nobody elses controls, I'm happy.

 

[trader_dante]

Sounds like Dinos did things right...I just remembed this thread because someone PM'd me over on another board asking me if I was where I wanted to be after my early posts on J16...

And although I am sure this warning will fall on deaf ears, I have to say that I am more or less where I wanted to be when I sat in my 9-5 as a journalist/web editor, dreaming about one day being a trader and having financial independence to work for myself, from home.

Well, I got there eventually. Its by no means always easy but I'm profitable - Infact my trading now makes me exactly five and half times what I used to be paid per week in my old job... but I've got no friends, I hardly ever speak to my family and I've lost the love of my life - my girlfriend of 7 years because I always had my nose in a book or on a computer reading a forum or watching a chart.

I get up everyday and am free. Yesterday, I laid in bed until I felt like getting up. I drove into town, sat in Costa, had coffee. Read a book. Came home. Placed a trade. It hit my target. I exited. Walked into town this time. Bought an X-Box, came home and played Call of Duty 4 all day. Spoke to my friends on MSN who moan about their boring day jobs, Made some nice food. Went for a walk in the sunshine. etc.

When I used to get up at 6am, tired and dreading the day, getting the 141 into town only to sit typing up stories I couldn't give two sh*ts about and have someone I disliked breathing down my neck...the life I have now was the life I always dreamed about.

I lost my girlfriend because I wanted that life. Yet now, I would give up all my money and all the experience I've gained trading to get the girl back I lost to get there.

Although I hate to compare myself to anyone that has or had more power and influence than I will ever had, I really empathise with Benjamin Disraeli, the 19th Century Conservative PM:

"Few lives have a deeper irony than his. At thirty he deliberately sacrificed romantic love for the hope of power, and spent the next forty years striving for it. When, at seventy, he became Prime Minister with the certainty of a fairly long tenure in office, he was solitary, there was nobody left to care for him, he was so often unwell that his sole refreshment at the gorgeous banquets of the time was a biscuit and soda-water. Supreme irony of it all! the man who sacrificed love for power found when he had great power that what he wanted was love, and the Prime Minister lived only to write letters to Lady Bradford and fretted through anxious days waiting for the moment when he should see her".

Four English Potraits - Richard Aldington

When I started this thread, I said there was a price we all paid that went way beyond what we lost in monetary terms learning the business. And for me, it simpy has not been worth it.

I hope that's not the case for everyone.