for the same reason you pay what you pay for bad food :cheesy:
for the same reason real estate is overpriced in the UK :cheesy:
and for that reason you went to live to Kiwiland :cheesy:
hope you are well.
j
Jack o'Clubs
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Heart says England, head says Oz.
But odds on either not attractive, so betting man backs South Africa, lays New Zealand and backs Argentina now to lay them off later as they embarass the French on Friday... Oh well, we'll see...
Off this weekend to watch the first round matches.
Seedings on current form should be ;
NZ
SA,FR
AUS
IRE
It is not inconceivable that England won't get past the first round. Clearly I would take SA to beat them on aggregate and if we don't raise our game from recent levels we might well get turned over by Samoa. It used to be the case that we could wear them down and after 50/60 mins their defence would tire and we would run out in relative comfort as winners. So many of these guys now play their rugby abroad that the fitness issue is no longer has evident as it was so I expect it to be tighter than we would like and if it tips the wrong way we'll be out.
In any case the odds are for a qtrs exit latest. We're paying the price for not doing what should have been done straight after the last world cup and it's a bit late in the day I think to do more than a patch up job for this event. I feel for Jack because he really does not have the same depth of class of player as we had 4 years ago and he's not had enough time and continuity free of injury to forge what we do have into a solid team of journeymen who play their socks off for each other.
Early bath expected.
Seedings on current form should be ;
NZ
SA,FR
AUS
IRE
It is not inconceivable that England won't get past the first round. Clearly I would take SA to beat them on aggregate and if we don't raise our game from recent levels we might well get turned over by Samoa. It used to be the case that we could wear them down and after 50/60 mins their defence would tire and we would run out in relative comfort as winners. So many of these guys now play their rugby abroad that the fitness issue is no longer has evident as it was so I expect it to be tighter than we would like and if it tips the wrong way we'll be out.
In any case the odds are for a qtrs exit latest. We're paying the price for not doing what should have been done straight after the last world cup and it's a bit late in the day I think to do more than a patch up job for this event. I feel for Jack because he really does not have the same depth of class of player as we had 4 years ago and he's not had enough time and continuity free of injury to forge what we do have into a solid team of journeymen who play their socks off for each other.
Early bath expected.
I believe that if we come second in our group ( and that is a big if ) we will more than likely play Oz in the quarters in which case we would have somewhat less than no chance at all.
I believe that England are paying the price for excessive self congratulation after their fluke win 4 years ago, very similar to the England cricket team and their fluke Ashes victory a year or three ago.
At least there's not much chance for the England football team to indulge in self congratulation..they never win anything except piles of money as a reward for being losers. Better they lose to Israel and get the pain over early rather than let the whole thing drag out.
I believe that England are paying the price for excessive self congratulation after their fluke win 4 years ago, very similar to the England cricket team and their fluke Ashes victory a year or three ago.
At least there's not much chance for the England football team to indulge in self congratulation..they never win anything except piles of money as a reward for being losers. Better they lose to Israel and get the pain over early rather than let the whole thing drag out.
It wasn't a fluke win..anything but. We'd had years of preparation to forge a side that was supremely confident/ fit, cohesive , and tactically could play to a style that denied the oppostion the ball to such a degree that winning against us required a team of highly skilled try scorers on the top of their game..not something that teams can pullout everyday and the world cup simply confirmed that. We also had a 'boot' that was worth at least 9 points a game over and above the average kicker on aggregate.Put the two together and we were playing high probability rugby which is why it was no surprise to the other teams playing that we won.
Contrast that with where we are now and it is simply a tribute to a manner in which clubs and the games rulers have managed to sabotage the greater good of the national game.Add in an inability to replace quality with similar quality for retirements , long term injuries to other quality not yet restored to former achievement levels and you get mediocrity in terms of 'world class' . Throw in poor decisions making appointments after the last cup and you have....living proof of Murphy's Law.
Contrast that with where we are now and it is simply a tribute to a manner in which clubs and the games rulers have managed to sabotage the greater good of the national game.Add in an inability to replace quality with similar quality for retirements , long term injuries to other quality not yet restored to former achievement levels and you get mediocrity in terms of 'world class' . Throw in poor decisions making appointments after the last cup and you have....living proof of Murphy's Law.
JTrader
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Had the last WC been played in 2002, Englad would have won it easy, as thats when that side was at its peak & flying high. They just managed to squeeze it in in time in 2003, but the game by game points tallies had been declining over the year leading up to it.
Maybe you are right but the indisputable thing about England in the last WC is that they played boring old English style cauliflower-eared rugby, because they did not have the flair and talent to play exciting expansive rugby like the Southern Hemisphere countries.
And it has become worse and worse ever since.
'beauty' is in the eye of the beholder.... Rugby at a winning level is about bringing together a set of skills ,experience and tactics that utilise the former. For those who appreciate that and the tactical nature of the game we played 15 man rugby of 'beauty'. For people who think the best team,the most 'beautiful' rugby, is simply the one who scores the most tries,well we will never see eye to eye in that respect. Arguably England of 4/5 years ago were playing AllBlack 15 man rugby from 30 to 40 years ago.It's very noticeable that the AB's changed their emphasis from allout 12man freeflowing rugby after that to bring the front 8 back more into their style of play.
Denying the opposition the ball by relying on the strengths and superiority of your front 8 is an integral part of the game. We had it then and we don't have it now and we are struggling because of it...in essence we have lost our 'edge' and indeed other teams have now 'worked us out' tactically from that time.
Denying the opposition the ball by relying on the strengths and superiority of your front 8 is an integral part of the game. We had it then and we don't have it now and we are struggling because of it...in essence we have lost our 'edge' and indeed other teams have now 'worked us out' tactically from that time.
JTrader
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I agree that England were as boring as hell winning the last WC, and things ain't much prettier since. With the best player (J Rob) retiring from Rugby after this WC, and other ageing illustrious players likely to follow soon such ad LDal & AFar, you have to question if they have any hunger to do well.....
Technically you are quite correct in what you say.
But personally, I watch sport for the sheer excitement and exhilaration of it and the England rugby team just does not excite me.
Same with the England cricket team and most of all the England football team.
Not to mention the Davis Cup Team.
Maybe the England Crossword team could deliver the goods, who knows !!!!!!
tafita
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Some well informed and interesting points. England were simply unbeatable anywhere in the world and in any weather conditions before the last world cup, since then a lack of creative flair in the backline coupled with the points raised so far and a win of only 3 games away from Twickenham since the last WC has contributed to the lack readiness for this years competition. Personally, I do not rate Farell and Dallalio is not match fit. Why Andy Robinson did not decide on a solid team of newbies and get them game time and caps enough at the end of the last WC is beyond me. Ashton has a tough job as has already been said. Berkley needs to step up to the plate and start making the right decisions under pressure which so far he has been unable to due to lack of experience. I do not want to rubbish England as I am a fan and too much of it has been going on in the press lately which has not helped them prepare this time around. Winning consistently can be boring hence the boring style of rugby they were criticized for in the past. Let us support them in their endevours to defend a cup that no team has ever successfully defended.
Regards
Tafita
Regards
Tafita
After yesterday's performance against the USA, I think we can safely assume that they will not successfully defend the World Cup.
They were inadequate, unexciting, lacking flair and miserably boring.
I cannot support this team.
Bring on the All Blacks and OZ.
"I notice that the England apologists have gone very quiet lately !!!!!!!! lol"
Spoken like a true armchair ignoramus,excuse the misprint I did of course mean 'enthusiast'.
...I was quiet ,as indeed I was too busy actually going to the games to comment here.
The best conclusion for England will be to exit from this pool. Proceeding to the qtrs and being beat there by Oz will give too much latitude for the management to make the usual excuses. Exiting from the pool should be something sufficiently drastic that excuses will serve no purpose and perhaps then we can get on with putting right the real problems with our national side.
Contrary to Mr 'enthusiast' views above the real problems are only partly to do with the actual players and their ability.
First, we remain the only major side in world rugby not to organise our club game around our national game with the players involved in the latter being centrally organised. This is a function of the commercial strength of our clubs and their ongoing dispute with the rulers of our game at national level. The first outcome of this state of play is that our national players on aggregate can expect to play between 40 and 50 games a season spread between league fixtures ,cup games and international commitments. The outcome of this is simple , the players are overplayed and their bodies are telling us that by virtue of their incredible injury ratio both in the cup and in the seasons leading up to it.
As a minimum, at a best guess at least 50% of our first pick choices have played fewer than an handful of games in preparing for the cup as they came back from injuries this season.Training is not sufficient preparation for being match fit for international rugby and anyone involved in the game understands this. In some positions we are down to third string picks and we are playing people out of position to compensate for that and yet we have without doubt got our best available players over there.No one's left hanging up in a wardrobe back in England waiting to be called because they should have been first pick.
Second, our depth of quality available for selection has shrunk, see above. We've got promising young talent having to play in the 2nd and 3 rd divs because they can't find a place in the premiership to develop their experience. Why ? simple, we have the most commercial league in the world and it attracts foreign players in droves. Yet, with only a couple of exceptions when these southern hemisphere supermen come to our game they don't play exceptional rugby ,in fact most look very 'average'. Why ? ,because it's hard rugby ,it's intense physically , it's demanding on the body particularly because of the number of games being played...message getting home perhaps?
The only people more disappointed than the fans the other night was the players and we could feel it in the stands. We and they deserve better and it is up to the clubs and Union to stop this ongoing dispute and find a way forward together for the good of the game.
A sobering thought is this. The money in English rugby nearly floats the world game. A weak English game is the last thing needed.Ask the kiwis/oz what they would do if our moneyflow from tours dried up because of a weak national side and poor sponsorship...they'd be even more broke than they already are....why do people think so many players from the south come here in the first place....gloat if you like ,but world rugby devoid of a strong English game is going to suffer badly and none of us who support the game first and our teams second would like to see that...ask the 80k of us from SA and England who bothered to make the effort to go Stade....ask all the SA's who cheered and applauded the Samoans the other day when they were actually playing the boks !
Spoken like a true armchair ignoramus,excuse the misprint I did of course mean 'enthusiast'.
...I was quiet ,as indeed I was too busy actually going to the games to comment here.The best conclusion for England will be to exit from this pool. Proceeding to the qtrs and being beat there by Oz will give too much latitude for the management to make the usual excuses. Exiting from the pool should be something sufficiently drastic that excuses will serve no purpose and perhaps then we can get on with putting right the real problems with our national side.
Contrary to Mr 'enthusiast' views above the real problems are only partly to do with the actual players and their ability.
First, we remain the only major side in world rugby not to organise our club game around our national game with the players involved in the latter being centrally organised. This is a function of the commercial strength of our clubs and their ongoing dispute with the rulers of our game at national level. The first outcome of this state of play is that our national players on aggregate can expect to play between 40 and 50 games a season spread between league fixtures ,cup games and international commitments. The outcome of this is simple , the players are overplayed and their bodies are telling us that by virtue of their incredible injury ratio both in the cup and in the seasons leading up to it.
As a minimum, at a best guess at least 50% of our first pick choices have played fewer than an handful of games in preparing for the cup as they came back from injuries this season.Training is not sufficient preparation for being match fit for international rugby and anyone involved in the game understands this. In some positions we are down to third string picks and we are playing people out of position to compensate for that and yet we have without doubt got our best available players over there.No one's left hanging up in a wardrobe back in England waiting to be called because they should have been first pick.
Second, our depth of quality available for selection has shrunk, see above. We've got promising young talent having to play in the 2nd and 3 rd divs because they can't find a place in the premiership to develop their experience. Why ? simple, we have the most commercial league in the world and it attracts foreign players in droves. Yet, with only a couple of exceptions when these southern hemisphere supermen come to our game they don't play exceptional rugby ,in fact most look very 'average'. Why ? ,because it's hard rugby ,it's intense physically , it's demanding on the body particularly because of the number of games being played...message getting home perhaps?
The only people more disappointed than the fans the other night was the players and we could feel it in the stands. We and they deserve better and it is up to the clubs and Union to stop this ongoing dispute and find a way forward together for the good of the game.
A sobering thought is this. The money in English rugby nearly floats the world game. A weak English game is the last thing needed.Ask the kiwis/oz what they would do if our moneyflow from tours dried up because of a weak national side and poor sponsorship...they'd be even more broke than they already are....why do people think so many players from the south come here in the first place....gloat if you like ,but world rugby devoid of a strong English game is going to suffer badly and none of us who support the game first and our teams second would like to see that...ask the 80k of us from SA and England who bothered to make the effort to go Stade....ask all the SA's who cheered and applauded the Samoans the other day when they were actually playing the boks !
I do not take offence to the use of the word ignoramus when it is used by one who thinks he knows everything and everyone else knows nothing.
I played the game for 25 years before retiring and have followed the game for some 40 years all in all.
I have a reasonable knowledge of the game and as I said before, England are now truly one of the worst sides ever to pull on the shirt. Imho of course.
When I use the word apologist, I equate it with fully blinkered and unwiling to see things as they really are.
I would suggest you have picked the correct name in Chump because clearly, wasting time and money in going to what you describe as a game is Chumpish in the extreme.
That should rouse him again, stir stir...........
BTW, where did you copy and paste your comments from ? :cheesy:
I hope the Samoans give us a good walloping...then maybe you will see things as they truly are.
Dire !!
I played the game for 25 years before retiring and have followed the game for some 40 years all in all.
I have a reasonable knowledge of the game and as I said before, England are now truly one of the worst sides ever to pull on the shirt. Imho of course.
When I use the word apologist, I equate it with fully blinkered and unwiling to see things as they really are.
I would suggest you have picked the correct name in Chump because clearly, wasting time and money in going to what you describe as a game is Chumpish in the extreme.
That should rouse him again, stir stir...........
BTW, where did you copy and paste your comments from ?
:cheesy: I hope the Samoans give us a good walloping...then maybe you will see things as they truly are.
Dire !!
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For once we agree. A good "walloping" is what is needed because we don't want to leave any hiding place to roost more excuses. When you say "worst" again I agree,they are all of that and yet individually these guys do not play that excruciatingly badly for their clubs week in week out...so what is happening to them when they come together as a national team ? If we had a a game plan for them the other night I couldn't see it ,but the SA kicked us to death working their plan.
When you have a centre kicking off by punting no less than 6 times straight down the middle of the field opening the entire field to the opposition ,so far it wasn't even chaseable, what does that tell you about his tactical awareness (Farrell) ? Do you know what the Boks sat next to us were shouting at Farrell..." come on sir ,kick to Habana again please sir ,he doesn't know how to catch it"...LOL talk about sarcasm hitting the nail on the head!
When did Catt last play at fly ? I bet even he can't remember it was that long ago.
How many games did these players have at the season end to prepare for the cup on the park ...
Sheridan
Cuetto
Vickery
Barkley
Stevens
Moody
Wilkinson
Hodgson
Grewcock (sus)
there are probably others
Our first pick hooker...Mark Regan ...decent workhorse ,but international hooker ? But who else was there besides him and Chuter. Chuter one of the best throwers in the league came on and coughed either 3 or 4 times in succession missing the jumpers...how do you explain it ?
I'm surprised at your comments given your past involvement in the game and your comments did nothing to address the facts.However , I don't disagree with your obvious thoughts on the ineptness of the players only the fact that you don't appear to also look behind that at causes that go beyond the players alone. Having said that one memory will stay with me forever. The sight of Ben Kay 5 mtrs out with ball in hand and a player outside him on the wing trying to chip over the top...that was symptomatic of the team as a whole ...I don't think I've ever seen a side make so many errors and poor decision making was the order of the day...for all of this the players must take responsibility.
I apologise for the cheap shot earlier.
When you have a centre kicking off by punting no less than 6 times straight down the middle of the field opening the entire field to the opposition ,so far it wasn't even chaseable, what does that tell you about his tactical awareness (Farrell) ? Do you know what the Boks sat next to us were shouting at Farrell..." come on sir ,kick to Habana again please sir ,he doesn't know how to catch it"...LOL talk about sarcasm hitting the nail on the head!
When did Catt last play at fly ? I bet even he can't remember it was that long ago.
How many games did these players have at the season end to prepare for the cup on the park ...
Sheridan
Cuetto
Vickery
Barkley
Stevens
Moody
Wilkinson
Hodgson
Grewcock (sus)
there are probably others
Our first pick hooker...Mark Regan ...decent workhorse ,but international hooker ? But who else was there besides him and Chuter. Chuter one of the best throwers in the league came on and coughed either 3 or 4 times in succession missing the jumpers...how do you explain it ?
I'm surprised at your comments given your past involvement in the game and your comments did nothing to address the facts.However , I don't disagree with your obvious thoughts on the ineptness of the players only the fact that you don't appear to also look behind that at causes that go beyond the players alone. Having said that one memory will stay with me forever. The sight of Ben Kay 5 mtrs out with ball in hand and a player outside him on the wing trying to chip over the top...that was symptomatic of the team as a whole ...I don't think I've ever seen a side make so many errors and poor decision making was the order of the day...for all of this the players must take responsibility.
I apologise for the cheap shot earlier.
Chump, you are a good and knowledgeable guy and probably think about the game more deeply than myself.
I believe that the major reasons for us winning the last World Cup were because Clive Woodward put in place a set of rigid standards and values to which the players were forced to adhere.
Add to that a set of players with outstanding ability and you had the recipe for great success.
Since Woodward departed the scene, it would appear that those standards and values have been allowed to gradually erode.
Consequently we have seen a gradual but now accelerating decline in the standard of the England side.
Add to that players of lesser ability than 4 years ago ( read Andy Pot Belly Farrell ) and you have the recipe for disaster.
I also apologise for some of my comments.
I believe that the major reasons for us winning the last World Cup were because Clive Woodward put in place a set of rigid standards and values to which the players were forced to adhere.
Add to that a set of players with outstanding ability and you had the recipe for great success.
Since Woodward departed the scene, it would appear that those standards and values have been allowed to gradually erode.
Consequently we have seen a gradual but now accelerating decline in the standard of the England side.
Add to that players of lesser ability than 4 years ago ( read Andy Pot Belly Farrell ) and you have the recipe for disaster.
I also apologise for some of my comments.
