'No indicators' revisited

[TheBramble]

The chat room is far too distracting for me

Chat Room is to Dark Siders as Tick Chart is to....

 

[a320]

I'll sometimes pop into the Chat room, very quiet in their lately though.... :?:


CJ

 

[SOCRATES]

Thanks, SOCRATES. I was just wondering about that.

BTW, do other Dark Siders frequent the chat room? If so, at about what time?

I have tried several times to meet others there, no luck so far though.

OK, you are most unlikely to meet true dark siders in chat rooms.

You are likely to meet people purporting to be darksiders, who pop up hoping that a true darksider will take them in hand and tutor them in the dark arts.

This does not happen because the imposters are easy to spot.. Imposters give their game away by their conduct.

They get easily frustrated and impatient, and, when denied information for which
they are not ready, tend to becoming abusive and rude, instead of behaving properly.

This makes darksiders even more shy and secretive and protective of each other.

In some ways this is a bonus because it helps to develop and mature the correct
mindset most effectively. See my post "coping with the boredom element".

In this post I talk briefly about visitors, and the consequences of their visits.

In the darkest side of darksiding there exists the Star Chamber.

Here conclusions are arrived at in pitch blackness by comparison, in isolation,
by routes not mechanical but mental of the most............................................... sort. The space is
left blank because there is not a word in the dictionary to describe the process.

Yet , we are also capable of giving help by explaining market actions and outcomes in mechanical outlines so that anyone who can reason is able to follow, as you have found.

Star Chamber Methodologies can never discussed in public, because the consequences of doing so would be dire.

Now please turn your attention to my commentary in future time for the benefit of Gaza, yesterday afternoon, as the market rolled in real time, predicting the fireworks and picking the absolute bottom. All the times and prices are recorded. Now look at your chart, the Instrument was the Dax Future, nearest contract. I cannot print you a chart because I didn't use one.

Read "days of stopping out question", it is all in there.

 

[clylbw]

:cheesy:

 

[robq]

Not even a little twinkle of light in the Star Chamber?

 

[ford]

It only takes 1, 5 minute bar to miss a decent entry sometimes. You can easily miss that 5 minute by looking at chatrooms, even forums :!:

I myself "only" have 1, 19 inch monitor which isnt big enough for charts, let alone internet explorer and chat.

I think that really, most people go into chatrooms looking for answers and guidance, which you arent going to find. Not during the trading day anyway. a320.

 

[frugi]

On a more mundane note I think a lot of "apprentice darksiders" stopped joining the chat room after it spawned a twin brother who is more concerned with currency fluctuations.

Now we have one perenially ignored forum while the other buzzes with glamorous tales of whippy cable conquered and trendy euro trailed. Vastly outnumbered, the poor darksiders are a little timid to pollute these foreign (though friendly) waters with mundane tales of geometry and Elliot.

Possible solutions: A sprinkling of darksiders quietly return to the original room, form a small clandestine unit and endeavour to disseminate dangerous information amongst themselves without attracting the usual dire consequences of discussing price action without reference to a single indicator.

or: the twin brother is assimilated and we stand shoulder to shoulder with the currency speculators in one great agora, ...just like the good old days.

Well, I'll be in one or t'other some days and hereby estimate my darkside skill level as 2/10 - junior apprentice with some experience marred by an irksome lack of discipline. I'll be the one asking questions then, sorry.

Hope to see some of you somewhere, sometime.

PS: Point well made by Skim & Ford re distraction. Only the other day was I discussing the joys of owning 9 cats with Otho and missed a cracking entry. However I'd say there are still trendless tedious hours when the odd shared word won't destroy one's account.

 

[neil]

Keep the dark Arts dark

I may have misunderstood something but I think the Dark Arts ( reading of price bars and volume - no indicators) has been polluted by the introduction of geometry etc and other infidel practices.
Maybe we should break away and install Skim as the dark master/mistress of the diabolic art of indicatorless trading, so that we can once again thrill at the exhileration of spotting that higher high etc.

Drop the dead indicator.

Ah well , back to the candleless room and my cream tea

 

[SOCRATES]

Not even a little twinkle of light in the Star Chamber?

Sorry, no visitors allowed. But follow my posts. If you have the right character, you will benefit.

 

[rossored]

Yes I think its safe to say to "indices" chatroom is well and truly dead.

I gave up going in there because it just wasnt worth it. Quercus, Fordy and I tried and tried to get others to come in, but either they dont come in, or they do come in and then sit there expectantly. I just cant be bothered any more.

I'm on msn anyway most days, so if I need to chat to someone I'll do it on there. Besides, I can voice-over-IP to Quercus down in NZ on MSN for free and its much better than typing it all.

 

[SOCRATES]

I may have misunderstood something but I think the Dark Arts ( reading of price bars and volume - no indicators) has been polluted by the introduction of geometry etc and other infidel practices.
Maybe we should break away and install Skim as the dark master/mistress of the diabolic art of indicatorless trading, so that we can once again thrill at the exhileration of spotting that higher high etc.

Drop the dead indicator.

Ah well , back to the candleless room and my cream tea

Aaaah ! Now I understand your posture completely. I am so pleased you are pleased.

 

[clylbw]

Fake Tops and Buying Climax

There were finally ACTIONS today which had gone missing lately...

Thanks again for the tip on the tweezer bottom, SOCRATES; it got me in for the big rise from the beginning.

I would like to ask two things regarding today's NQ actions.

1. I made a mistake about a fake top . In the 10-minute chart as attached, I saw the 13:50pm doji as indicating the end of the 5 waves, illustrated by the pink lines in the attachment, and closed my long position. The next two bars seemed to confirm this, and I went short at the 14:20pm bar, highlighted by the orange line in the attachment. Obviously, this was a wrong decision; I covered with -0.5 points and went long again for the remaining of the up move. Did I overlook something or make some wrong assumptions which had lead to this wrong trade?

2. I remember Skim once said when watching the volume it is possible to know whether it is the retail or the big boy in charge. How may I do so? I believe knowing this will help to determine whether a high-volume bar represents a trading climax or not. For example, the 15:00pm bar in the attachment, indicated by the black line, looked like a potential buying climax to me, but the subsequent price actions indicated the opposite.

Thanks indeed.

 

[ChartMan]

Could I poke my nose in?..... I saw nothing wrong with exiting at the end of the 5 waves.... This co-incided with the ND top on the Dow. History tells me that this is a long close. The problem comes, as you found, that taking a short here is a risk. Mostly that risk is minimal and an exit can be found at minimal cost ( as you did ). Being not of the dark side, I relied on other things to point the way .... So I too will be interested in others opinions on that volume climax. Was that the big boys setting themselves up for tomorrow?
What does this have to do with NQ ? Not a lot, except when the maket is in unison and everything moves together.

 

[china white]

at the end of the day, with ADX banging at 70 (!!!) u'd expect the "holy grail" to hold. I also reversed to short at 1106.50 - see my post under Trading ES.... IMO, the most important thing is understanding the scope of risk when u short an up trend, and having firm stop losses in place.

 

[BBB]

Your 'climax high' volume isn't so high RELATIVE to the other volume bars.

Elliot waves are IMO a waste of time. If you dislike indicators so much, I just cant fathom why you would want to use some dodgy THEORY. At least an indicator is based on fact - albeit historical fact. Like the ethos of the thread suggests - trade price, trade facts, not theory.

Elliot Waves are for those who like to trade in the past. Unfortunately your broker wont let you do that.

Who do you call 'big boys'? Institutional holders, market makers, people with more experience, the majority of the crowd? Have a think about what each of the objectives of these people are. What are they trying to achieve? What roles do they play? How does this affect the way the operate in the markets?

 

[a320]

Your 'climax high' volume isn't so high RELATIVE to the other volume bars.

Elliot waves are IMO a waste of time. If you dislike indicators so much, I just cant fathom why you would want to use some dodgy THEORY. At least an indicator is based on fact - albeit historical fact. Like the ethos of the thread suggests - trade price, trade facts, not theory.

Elliot Waves are for those who like to trade in the past. Unfortunately your broker wont let you do that.

This dodgy theory worked well for us today...the overbalancing (exceeds 1:1) of a correction in a larger degree (the 33 points one) @ 1108.25 gave a clear signal you had to go long on the under balancing (less than 1:1) correction in the (minor degree) to the 1105.75 area.. but ignorance is $$ for us..
Did people get the SQ9 180' level at 1108.25 area?? ))

Maybe I'll have to jump to China's Thread... :cheesy:


CJ :cheesy:

 

[ford]

I dont think it was a 'wrong' trade myself. 5 waves, 3 pushes, whatever you want to call it and and a small double top.

The fact is you acted on it's failure to push lower and got back on the right side of the market for minimum cost. Thats really what matters I think.

 

[china white]

exactly right fordie - its all discipline which in our biz means firm stop loss management

as for Elliott - u may remember he created his theory for social factors primarily (like Signor Fibbonacci for rabbit multiplication) - it is based on some basic numbers like 3 and 5 which do indeed rule the world However, APPLICATIONS of Elliott's findings to stock market r entirely in the eye of the beholder, and like I said many times on these forums - my hat off to those who can read correctly this highly subjective stuff - but i just can't do it

 

[clylbw]

Many thanks to all of you indeed.

Wonder whether Skim or others have something more to say about the volume?

I agree that EW is subjective. However, it works for me as I am never able to work in the logical + indicators way . Maybe that is why trading is so attractive; it allows different people to use their own preferred methods, as long as the methods are productive. Value is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Skimbleshanks]

As you know clylbw, I don't trade NQ so I am not familiar with how volume works on that future. I only know ES, and the only interesting thing was that the big boys got into position on Monday afternoon and very early Tuesday. I remember thinking, 'ooh, that's not right, something's up' as I saw them do it while the market was at and under 1095, but obviously I didn't know which way they had planned.