Navinder Singh Sarao

TechQuant

Well-known member
264 52
Just a guy, trying to earn a crust and make a few bob. Is his skill appreciated? No.

It's all uphill I tell ya.
 

TechQuant

Well-known member
264 52
"CFTC director of enforcement Aitan Goelman said: "Protecting the integrity and stability of the US futures markets is critical to ensuring a properly functioning financial system."

I like to start the day with good old belly laugh.
 
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tomorton

Legendary member
8,408 1,338
It would be nice to see a Director of Enforcement in the dock for leaving the burglar alarm switched off and the back door unlocked.
 

Boilersuit

Junior member
27 6
WHat was reported in the press was utterly baffling.

Apparently he's been charged with "spoofing" and wire fraud too.

But how the hell is placing orders "market manipulation".
There was a vastly larger number of traders who could have called his bluff, if HE was trying to manipulate a market in that way.

Either the US is trying to suppress the truth. Or the press is reporting tripe.

Strange.
 

Fugazsy

Veteren member
3,661 677
Yes, I do not understand, how did he manipulate market from his parent's house?

spoofing? meaning placing a orders on the offer just to flip it on the last moment on the bid? Well, market movers do that every day.......not sure what is going on....
 

Charles Bronson

Member
75 12
WHat was reported in the press was utterly baffling.

Apparently he's been charged with "spoofing" and wire fraud too.

But how the hell is placing orders "market manipulation".
There was a vastly larger number of traders who could have called his bluff, if HE was trying to manipulate a market in that way.

Either the US is trying to suppress the truth. Or the press is reporting tripe.

Strange.




I think its a case of the exchanges and larger firms protecting their own money. They probably do this all day long and every day.

I don't think one person has the power to move the markets in that way. He may have found a system that was costing the big players a lot of money. Legally there may have been nothing they could do about it. The crash was a way to create a major incident so they could get the authorities involved.

How does one place a fraudulent trade with a broker? It is the broker who maintains control over the funds.

Is spoofing wrong? Only because they say it is. Like Boilersuit says there are enough traders who can call his bluff. Maybe he was just taking advantage of events unfolding. I am sure traders have done this before and will continue to do so. I think Mr Singhs system was too much of a risk.

As traders we all know what we can and cannot do in the markets, we all know where the real power lies. Its not in my hands and its not in yours.
 

Boilersuit

Junior member
27 6
You've only got to look at LIBOR rigging, forex rigging, Copper rigging, the Alpari debacle etc etc and now this.
Its a bit disconcerting that there seems to be one rule for these. And one rule for the others.

I'm now starting to wonder if there will be a fraud unveiled that will absolutely DWARF the above ones..Its only been speculated upon away from the mainstream press, but who knows. It reminds me of how MF Global was discussed as bankrupt years before it became clear in the financial press.

I wonder what will come out in the Sarao case...
 
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Atilla

Legendary member
19,823 3,092
Seems system is not fit for purpose or traders have some strange concept of what is fair and how one should conduct them selves fairly as gentlemen often doooo when there are millions and billions involved... :cheesy:

I also concur with much of what has been said below.

Haggling, misleading, talking up features and benefits and talking down competition and bluffing are all part of the transaction process in the market place. Why should it be any different online?


Salesmen use pressure tactics all the time?
- This is the last one, next delivery two weeks away
- Discount only available if you place your order by end of month
- When booking aeroplane tickets online, cookies on PC inform sales of your repeat visits and offer same seat at higher price - even though 250 seats remain vacant
- When buying anything retail why are we not informed, how many items remain in stock

Online market place - how is it different to real market place?


Seems like a load of illogical nonsense to me and I can't get over the 5 year delay in trying to stop/catch this guy??? Why now and not before?


I find the Swiss bank misleading the market a much bigger scandal than this little guy.

On the contrary whole system is based on deceit, smoke and mirrors and daggers so it would seem! From, investment to central banks and now regulatory bodies acting on vested interests imho.
 

Fugazsy

Veteren member
3,661 677

lol
From the FBI:

SARAO's use of the dynamic layering technique was particularly intense in the hours leading up to the Flash Crash. SARAO used the technique continuously from 11:17 a.m. until 1:40 p.m. SARAO began this cycle by placing the following five sell orders nearly simultaneously at approximately 11:17:38.782 a.m.: (1) 600 lots at $1,156.50; (2) 600 lots at $1,156.75; (3) 600 lots at $1,157.00; (4) 600 lots at $1,157.25; and (5) 600 lots at $1,157.50. At approximately 1:13 p.m., SARAO added a sixth sell order for 600 lots, bringing the total to 3,600 lots. The orders were replaced or modified more than 19,000 times before SARAO canceled them, without having executed any of them, at approximately 1:40:12.553 p.m.
 

Atilla

Legendary member
19,823 3,092
lol
From the FBI:

SARAO's use of the dynamic layering technique was particularly intense in the hours leading up to the Flash Crash. SARAO used the technique continuously from 11:17 a.m. until 1:40 p.m. SARAO began this cycle by placing the following five sell orders nearly simultaneously at approximately 11:17:38.782 a.m.: (1) 600 lots at $1,156.50; (2) 600 lots at $1,156.75; (3) 600 lots at $1,157.00; (4) 600 lots at $1,157.25; and (5) 600 lots at $1,157.50. At approximately 1:13 p.m., SARAO added a sixth sell order for 600 lots, bringing the total to 3,600 lots. The orders were replaced or modified more than 19,000 times before SARAO canceled them, without having executed any of them, at approximately 1:40:12.553 p.m.


My issue with this would be - well what are the other HFTs doing and how do their algorithms work?

Who's policing this business?

Perhaps there should be a time delay of 5 minutes for these orders before removal. I know that's a stupid idea but the alternative of allowing this facility and selling L2 market depth subscription to players has or IS a fundamental flaw.

Ban automated trading altogether or fix the flaw, but let's not all pretend and try and enforce that pretension.

This gentlemens agreement and self regulation stuff is fiction and detached from reality.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...e-cracked-down-on-high-frequency-traders.html
 
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tomorton

Legendary member
8,408 1,338
Who's policing this business?


That's the key question.

Sarao broke the law. His actions help to undermine confidence in the market and without that, why would anyone invest in it? He is as dangerous as a terrorist.

But the far worse crime is the failure of the regulators to protect the market from this kind of abuse. He's not a Robin Hood or a genius, he's a failed con man.

The ease of his effort raises the question whether the regulators really want to eliminate this kind of thing or want it to continue - if its eliminated their organisations are redundant, if it continues, they can continue to claim fat salaries for running big staffs. The occasional minnow just helps them underline what a fine and necessary job they're doing. I have said before those suits should get 20 years apiece.
 
 
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