Navinder Singh Sarao

still have this book published in 1999: electronic day traders secret, it is an interview of a few traders at the time, they all stress the point in market makers to fade and flip from one side to other with the intent to deceive, apparently they never got into trouble....

Its a difficult one - a bit like saying you are either pregnant or not pregnant - there's no grey area - but in Law there is loads of grey areas - eg

The UK speed limit on roads is a maximum of 70 mph

If I am cruising along on the M1 at at 73 mph - i am breaking the speed limit - but the Police etc - will ignore me

If I cruise at 85 mph - a police car might pull me over and say - either - Your being booked and penalty fine and 3 points on licence - or they might say - you are let off this time

If I am crusing and 88 - 95 mph - I will be booked and have to pay a fine etc etc

If i am cruising at 105 mph - booked and lose licence for a minimum 3 months etc etc - ie the punishment is more severe

If I am cruising at say 130 mph - bigger punishment etc etc and at over 150 mph - would lose licence for at least 3 years and might Prison or suspended sentence for say 6 or 12 months

Cruising at 160 mph - and not stopping etc etc - massive fines - lose licence for a year or more and even 6 months in the cells etc

Now with trading - If I cheat and make a few thousands etc - no problem really

If I cheat and make a few million - bigger issue - could be massive fine and charged for fraud etc etc

If I cheat and make $20 million plus - big trouble

If I cheat and make billions etc etc and also I am a bank - easy - I blame my computers - and just pay a fine - if I do get caught lol

Deutsche Banks latest fine is over 1.6 billion to US and UK authorities - I suppose a bit more that £60 fine for speeding to them - but how many employers are off to prison ???

The Law is like the Ritz Hotel - is available to all - but you need the money to be able to keep using and abusing it etc etc

To ask the Hound of Hounslow for a £5 million bail fee seems unbelievable for a start - the whole thing stinks - but then the whole financial world stinks - and I am a great believer in Capitalism and entrepreneurial way of life - but the law should apply to all - not for the select few to get away with it
 
Those trades that have used level two and the order book, will know that there are always large orders outside the market, which never get touched if the market does not intend to. I have traded using level two and the order book and there have been orders just above below large enough to cause the market to follow. But they were never touched.

He was trading Futures, which makes it even more baffling. Futures prices/ trend is based on the Cash Index of the underlying instrument. If there is no eg weakness in the cash index, the market will go up, the short orders outside the level two price will remain in the market for now.

I don't see how he can cause that drop, there are unlimited number of futures contracts opened, but the market will only follow strength and weakness in the underlying instrument, as shown in the Cash Index .

Many varied opinions here , ranging from agreeing support and downright condemnation. The fear many see in this process and the threat to their livelihoods is evident in some of the views. What people have to realize is that nothing has really changed for traders like us. It is still our systems and methods that rule and that is what keeps the markets going now and in the future.
 
If this has now become an issue then the authorities should create some rules. It seems there were not any rules back then, so his case becoming a major incident 5 years after the event is an indication that this cannot be policed. The media coverage is an attempt to bring fear into other would be traders who may profit from this AHEAD of the bigger players.

He lives in a 3 bedroom semi with his parents. Hardly the lifestyle of someone who earned millions. If I was making just $1 million dollars my lifestyle would change dramatically.

More to this than we are being told.
 
What happens when / if these spoof orders get filled, how does that work then ?
 
What happens when / if these spoof orders get filled, how does that work then ?


If they get filled they wouldn't be spoof orders anymore. He either had the intention of having them filled, or he could not cancel them in time.

Point being that either way, it will be the market dictating direction, not Mr Singh.
 
Those trades that have used level two and the order book, will know that there are always large orders outside the market, which never get touched if the market does not intend to. I have traded using level two and the order book and there have been orders just above below large enough to cause the market to follow. But they were never touched.

He was trading Futures, which makes it even more baffling. Futures prices/ trend is based on the Cash Index of the underlying instrument. If there is no eg weakness in the cash index, the market will go up, the short orders outside the level two price will remain in the market for now.

I don't see how he can cause that drop, there are unlimited number of futures contracts opened, but the market will only follow strength and weakness in the underlying instrument, as shown in the Cash Index .

Many varied opinions here , ranging from agreeing support and downright condemnation. The fear many see in this process and the threat to their livelihoods is evident in some of the views. What people have to realize is that nothing has really changed for traders like us. It is still our systems and methods that rule and that is what keeps the markets going now and in the future.


There is the possibility he was a coincidental participant on a hit by the other bigger players. Like sort of a Mexican stand-off. What if they planned to spoof them selves but overlooked this player. Nobody wants to but if one party blows or mis-reads the others intention it can lead to a snowball avalanche. Especially, if there is a new player in the market.

If there are automated HFT systems out there or an automated trading system is switched on in production environment for the first time then off it goes.

Who ever is investigating needs to look at who else was selling, why and how. Too short sighted to say just one little guy caused it all.


Why hasn't this big drop happened subsequently in the last 5 years?

Why the unique event?

Why did the market also bounce back so quickly?

Who did the buying and at what levels.


Soooo many questions and no answers. After 5 years the bodies concerned, must weigh and consider these before raising an arrest warrant and extradition charges.

Either these regulation guys are very good or they are **** poor cowboys shooting first then asking questions. Wouldn't put it past them. :!:
 
There is the possibility he was a coincidental participant on a hit by the other bigger players. Like sort of a Mexican stand-off. What if they planned to spoof them selves but overlooked this player. Nobody wants to but if one party blows or mis-reads the others intention it can lead to a snowball avalanche. Especially, if there is a new player in the market.

If there are automated HFT systems out there or an automated trading system is switched on in production environment for the first time then off it goes.

Who ever is investigating needs to look at who else was selling, why and how. Too short sighted to say just one little guy caused it all.


Why hasn't this big drop happened subsequently in the last 5 years?

Why the unique event?

Why did the market also bounce back so quickly?

Who did the buying and at what levels.


Soooo many questions and no answers. After 5 years the bodies concerned, must weigh and consider these before raising an arrest warrant and extradition charges.

Either these regulation guys are very good or they are **** poor cowboys shooting first then asking questions. Wouldn't put it past them. :!:



Yes many questions.

Can the investigation be trusted? It could be one of their own funded departments carrying it out.

Many of these have created and fund the organizations themselves so the outcome is in their favor also.
 
That Statute of Limitations expiring very shortly has a nasty ring to it. Once that expires everyone else is home and dry from any repercussions that the Singh case might bring.

I distrust the American legal system and I have no opinion about Singh's participation, or not, so am sitting out on this.

The only hope is that it may, but I'm not holding my breath, bring about some long awaited improvements for trading security for all of us tadpoles.
 
That Statute of Limitations expiring very shortly has a nasty ring to it. Once that expires everyone else is home and dry from any repercussions that the Singh case might bring.

I distrust the American legal system and I have no opinion about Singh's participation, or not, so am sitting out on this.

The only hope is that it may, but I'm not holding my breath, bring about some long awaited improvements for trading security for all of us tadpoles.
Me dear split, that's not going ta happen any time soon, if ever.

While there are some understandably and extremely powerful vested interests in keeping things in the club with the means and sufficient financial and even political power to prevent such a thing as a level playing field ever occurring, the more obvious reason the current situation will remain the status quo is that the regulators do not posses people of anywhere near the same calibre as those who are hired into the big firms to find ways to legally trade between the regs and still act with what could be considered an insiders edge. By between the regs I mean in the areas which are not specifically covered. Grey areas or more specifically badly worded regs that are open to subjective legal (expensive and over a long period) interpretation. Basically, the regs are proposed, published and policed by people who have barely more knowledge of what goes on than does the man in the street. What exacerbates this setup is that the regulators routinely go out to the industry to ask 'advisors' their opinions on what regs would best be compiled.Now I don't know about you fellas, but if someone offered me the chance to have some input on how to treat handsome your Irishmen I'd probably forget all about me vaguely altruistic side and go whole hog on making Pat Riley's trough a little more abundant.

'Tis the way of the world I'm afraid.
 
Me dear split, that's not going ta happen any time soon, if ever.



'Tis the way of the world I'm afraid.

Another thing is that we traders are not going to be asked any questions. The questions would be asked to Mrs Mop, who only listens to LBC and 5 Live.

They believe that the whole thing is a casino and should be closed down, anyway.

Hey! Chin up! You never know!

Nothing to do with trading but, here, in Spain, it looks as if something will have to be done about tax dodgers in high places, who robbed the banks, of which they were chairmen --to the detriment of the Mrs. Mops who had their life savings invested in the preferential bonds.---Safe as houses, they were.
 
They believe that the whole thing is a casino and should be closed down, anyway.
Jaysus no! Don't do that! Not before I get me bonus anyway.

Nothing to do with trading but, here, in Spain, it looks as if something will have to be done about tax dodgers in high places, who robbed the banks, of which they were chairmen --to the detriment of the Mrs. Mops who had their life savings invested in the preferential bonds.---Safe as houses, they were.
Each country seems to have its own issues Split. I'm just back from Vietnam and ya wouldn't believe how corrupt local government is. It's a real pleasure to do business with such open graft as you always know you can get what you need. It's a real 'can do' type of place. In a rare show (case?) of anti-corruption the city leader of Hanoi (great place, love it almost as much as Mexico City) suspended a couple of dozen administrators for involvement in a timber laundering scheme. Basically, they cut down all the centuries old trees in the capital. But the scam is, they were all paid backhanders to that same city leader for a blind eye to their scam in the full knowledge he would select a few to be made an example of. I left before the saga had fully played out but I suspect by the time I go back there, they'll all be back at their old jobs.
 
Jaysus no! Don't do that! Not before I get me bonus anyway.

Each country seems to have its own issues Split. I'm just back from Vietnam and ya wouldn't believe how corrupt local government is. It's a real pleasure to do business with such open graft as you always know you can get what you need. It's a real 'can do' type of place. In a rare show (case?) of anti-corruption the city leader of Hanoi (great place, love it almost as much as Mexico City) suspended a couple of dozen administrators for involvement in a timber laundering scheme. Basically, they cut down all the centuries old trees in the capital. But the scam is, they were all paid backhanders to that same city leader for a blind eye to their scam in the full knowledge he would select a few to be made an example of. I left before the saga had fully played out but I suspect by the time I go back there, they'll all be back at their old jobs.

Thank God they are (the Chinese, too, I suspect) like us. I was beginning to get a bit nervous about thre Orientals. They don't seem to want to help us eliminate USIS, though, do they? If we can get rid of ISIS we could all live corruptly, together, forever more.
 
If ISIS stay put and just hang onto the land they currently control they have a fair crack at statehood, quasi or otherwise. Commerce is the only thing that'll bring em into the fold and you'll be surprised how quickly relatively normal commercial channels could be established. They've already got significant grey commerce goin on so they know how many beans make five alright. Nobody has the stomach for warfare, especially the up close an personal variety which is what would be required there which means the willingness to find an alternative is strong.
 
they thought they had it rigged until someone beat them at their own game
 
Poor lad. About to get stuck in a gladiator school - like jail in the US from the bully boy's of the American Justice (aye right) System.
 
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