How many people...

[tafita]

" What people don't understand is that most of these offers from firms don't teach you a system. They don't teach you how to be profitable. They put you in a situation where you are given access to knowledge and expected to absorb it. Then you are sat infront of a simulator and expected to put that knowledge into action, to create your own strategy - your own way of doing things. Exactly, in my opinion, as it should be. So all this talk of "are you profitable yourself" makes no difference."

if your or they are not profitable ~


how do they no what enviroment will be most effective = goal produce a consistant profitable trader ?

answer to Question please

I am a bit of a moron and cannot work it out !

Yes and I am apparently a novice so I can't help you either.

tenbobtrader, you have vendor status, what is your view on free vs paid for training?

 

[trader_dante]

if your or they are not profitable ~


how do they no what enviroment will be most effective = goal to produce a consistant profitable trader ?

answer to Question please

Because they know that the aim is to put the trainee in a professional environment where others have succeeded and succeed on an ongoing basis. Then give them the tools and the information and realise the trader finds their own path. Finally, they are let loose.

 

[Paulie_5]

Hi all,

I have seen post after post, thread after thread on "should I pay for a course?", "Is the fee worth it?" , "which course should I go for" etc etc ... There are so many different points of view to argue on this, but I think most people miss the point. Why do they miss the point ? Because they are looking at it from an experienced trader's point of view.

Go right back to when you first decided "I want to be a trader". It's an easy thing to say, but knowing HOW TO GO ABOUT IT CORRECTLY and understanding the deeply complex world of trading is more difficult than many give credit to.

You are not paying £5k to learn how to trade. Nor are you paying 5k to become profitable. You are paying 5k for a solid introduction to trading. By enrolling on a course, you are learning about :

- which charting packages to use? which broker ? how much are commissions? what is a "roundturn"? which squawk is the best? why do I need risk management? money management? why should I have stops? what are trendlines ? How do I draw them correctly ? how do I determine support ? resistance ? Which different markets are there ? Do I scalp ? Swing ? Position ? what's a moving average ? What are indicators ? RSI, MACD ?? Fundamentals.. what is non-farm payroll ? What are the relationships / inverse relationships between markets... ? the list goes on and on and on ....

Remember, as an experienced trader, the answer to these questions is second nature. To a newbie - far from it.

Now maybe as a newbie, you could answer 50% of these questions, maybe 90% .. but my point is that by being around mentors to continually ask questions, you learn a lot more than somebody who tells you - "it's all on the net for free, go and open a spreadbetting account and figure it out". By being in a trading environment, you learn five times quicker than trawling through the internet and punting your 10p/ point on a SB account.

The big problem is : all these courses sell the dream. They tell you that you will become profitable. Well, maybe you will , maybe not - but that bit is down to you. The hours and hours of screen time, working out what strategy suits you the best is something that nobody can teach you.

But that is sadly what people believe when they sign up.

I paid 5k for a course. Do I regret it ? Not in the slightest. It gave me a fantastic introduction into the world of trading and as a result, I understand what trading is all about much better. Did the 5k make me a profitable trader ? No. Not by any stretch. That's the hard work I did myself.

Paulie

 

[pavelsg]

Hi all,

I have seen post after post, thread after thread on "should I pay for a course?", "Is the fee worth it?" , "which course should I go for" etc etc ... There are so many different points of view to argue on this, but I think most people miss the point. Why do they miss the point ? Because they are looking at it from an experienced trader's point of view.

Go right back to when you first decided "I want to be a trader". It's an easy thing to say, but knowing HOW TO GO ABOUT IT CORRECTLY and understanding the deeply complex world of trading is more difficult than many give credit to.

You are not paying £5k to learn how to trade. Nor are you paying 5k to become profitable. You are paying 5k for a solid introduction to trading. By enrolling on a course, you are learning about :

- which charting packages to use? which broker ? how much are commissions? what is a "roundturn"? which squawk is the best? why do I need risk management? money management? why should I have stops? what are trendlines ? How do I draw them correctly ? how do I determine support ? resistance ? Which different markets are there ? Do I scalp ? Swing ? Position ? what's a moving average ? What are indicators ? RSI, MACD ?? Fundamentals.. what is non-farm payroll ? What are the relationships / inverse relationships between markets... ? the list goes on and on and on ....

Remember, as an experienced trader, the answer to these questions is second nature. To a newbie - far from it.

Now maybe as a newbie, you could answer 50% of these questions, maybe 90% .. but my point is that by being around mentors to continually ask questions, you learn a lot more than somebody who tells you - "it's all on the net for free, go and open a spreadbetting account and figure it out". By being in a trading environment, you learn five times quicker than trawling through the internet and punting your 10p/ point on a SB account.

The big problem is : all these courses sell the dream. They tell you that you will become profitable. Well, maybe you will , maybe not - but that bit is down to you. The hours and hours of screen time, working out what strategy suits you the best is something that nobody can teach you.

But that is sadly what people believe when they sign up.

I paid 5k for a course. Do I regret it ? Not in the slightest. It gave me a fantastic introduction into the world of trading and as a result, I understand what trading is all about much better. Did the 5k make me a profitable trader ? No. Not by any stretch. That's the hard work I did myself.

Paulie

Agree.

 

[tafita]

Because they know that the aim is to put the trainee in a professional environment where others have succeeded and succeed on an ongoing basis. Then give them the tools and the information and realise the trader finds their own path. Finally, they are let loose.

There is certainly more than one way to skin a cat as the saying goes. This method can only have merit if the success rate of the outcome can be measured. Professional environments have the advantage of not letting their trainee traders trade with real capital if they wish and are able to cherry pick the profitable traders. Why wouldn't they? Is it an effective way of teaching someone how to be a profitable trader as oppose to someone who knows how to trade? I think not. It may even actually have a negative psychological impact on would be profitable traders. Those who would flourish in a non professional environment for example.

This is why I support TD's idea of putting al lot of the information needed by noobs on the net, who cares what the so called pro's think, if they are trawling these boards in an effort to protect their holy grail systems, then they are not as professional as some people suggest. The 90/10 rule has existsed and will always exist in the markets and is true of professionals as well. F**k 'em.

 

[tenbobtrader]

knowledge does not get outdated

it just is

no F..cker is going to give you jack Sh...t thats any real long term use to you for 5K

they want 5 K = they are a vender / salesman, may be good at it but that is what they are, their priority is get them in and out and increase turnover in their chosen field

genuine knowledge / understanding starts with a solid foundation, how is any newbie going to no if its solid ?

its a total contradiction

its just pure luck if you hit lucky regards mentors / training etc

still think your better off reading the articles for nothing at the front of this site

if your to lazy to do your own due diligence and research etc I am just about to change my status to vender and will give one on one training and advice for 5K


you get my un divided attention for 3 months, then I get 10 % of the profit for the next 5 yrs, pretty lazy myself so the offer applies to anyone living in Cornwall

sorry over the Tamar is just to far to travel for 5 K !

pinbars do not work

pinbars do work

a poor workman blames his tools !

Andy

Yes and I am apparently a novice so I can't help you either.

tenbobtrader, you have vendor status, what is your view on free vs paid for training?

thought I detected a buzzzzzzin atmosphere around the bazar this morning

door up .......... goods out



in answer to your question

I do not no, it never occured to me to pay for such a service when I started

Thought it was a waste of an account I was sure I would lose anyway in the process of learning to trade

ended up paying my tuition fee"s on the hard road instead as per the plan

pays ya money takes ya chance


soon to retire, seems like you get a lot of flak if your a vender

end of day sale

1st pm gets to keep all the profits, so only 5K and your on your way


Andy

 

[trendie]

as I understand it:

TD is offering to make available the equivalent of a £5K prop-shop training for FREE.
TD is offering to show how we can access professional set-ups, and feeds, etc, and the best places to find them, for nominal costs.
TD will show how to plan your day: by implication, what the pros look at (news, order flow perhaps) to structure their trading day, and their biases for that day.

I dont think he is offering a winning strategy, but merely the tools to give some advantage.
(maybe he can impart some inside knowledge from his experiences)

I cannot believe there is so much cynicism. There appears to me to be more upside than downside.

This reminds me that you should trade what you see, not what you think.

Why are people not evaluating the offer in front of them (what we can see), rather than concocting ever-outlandish reasons why its a con (what they think) ??

I would take the offer up to pick up new ideas/insights, dependent on there being no signing up to a specific broker, or any kind of long-term sign-up to services.

The only thing TD hasnt mentioned is length of course/training, and how he would deal with after-training back-up.

Either the previous posters are marginally-profitable traders looking after the pennies, or people badly burnt by expensive courses. (of course, we are assuming the courses were fine, its just they were bad students. workman, tools, blame, etc)

Surely, we are experienced and liquid enough to have a couple of K to blow on courses?

EDIT: maybe I was hasty with my "pennies" and "bad students" remarks. This offer is aimed at relative newbies, so very experienced traders may feel the course may not offer any new knowledge. But then, you have to balance the risk (what do I stand to lose) with the upside (what do I stand to gain).

 

[Splitlink]

Which is why I put in the opener "it's not what it looks like"

If I was looking to make money from training people I would have charged back when I started MMT. Believe it or not I get people PM'ing me all the time asking if they can market my stuff for a profit share and various other sales schemes.

If anyone thinks after the amount of time and personal cost that I've put into helping people for free that I'm now on here with a sales pitch, they are a moron.

With due respect, TD, you must think of me what you wish.

I've followed you, off and on, since the "P-bar" thread and I do believe that there is some motive, other than helping for free, that drives you to keep posting here.

 

[tenbobtrader]

just the same with trading

would consider paying for coaching is running at 36 % SR

the ideas a winner td take it away

 

[tafita]

Either the previous posters are marginally-profitable traders looking after the pennies, or people badly burnt by expensive courses. (of course, we are assuming the courses were fine, its just they were bad students. workman, tools, blame, etc)

Surely, we are experienced and liquid enough to have a couple of K to blow on courses?

Assumptions and all that, but I fear my reply will be wasted. I do, however, have a need for facts, so here goes.

I have paid for a course, after I had become a profitable trader to see whether they could teach me anything 'new' about the market. This was the final stage of my learning to trade because i found out that there was nothing new in the market. It reminded me at that time so much reminiscences of a stock operator that I remember laughing as I came away from the course. The course fee i paid was worth it for me to find this information out and the realisation that everything that you need to know about the market has already existed in it and will continue to exists. Only experienced traders will understand this. This is why I support TD if he wants to publish this information as it would save a lot of noobs from the clutches of greasy viper trashy salesmen. Badly burned for the course I paid for: no, quite the opposite. Marginally profitable? Looking after pennies? My ego is not fragile enough to get started on that.

Bottom line is TD should produce a database/resource call it what you will for noobs so that they do not end up getting fleeced.

 

[Technically Fundamental]

Bottom line is TD should produce a database/resource call it what you will for noobs so that they do not end up getting fleeced.

Why is it his responsibility?

 

[tafita]

Why is it his responsibility?

TF, you are late to the party.

I suggest you read this thread through again. If you do not find the answer to your question, my second suggestion is to PM TD himself.

 

[trendie]

tafita (et al):
I have added an edit to that post.
I was just getting frustrated at the noise rather than the data.
No insult meant at anyone. merely my frustrations (assumptions) showing.
I want something I can evaluate and quantify, rather than conjecture.

 

[squall321]

it makes me laugh if someone pays 5k (or £4997, they always end in 7 for some reason), to be taught "basics of trading". you can learn the basics of trading for FREE, internet, books (even books can be got from the library so still no cost).

think about it
how much does it cost to go to university and get a real degree in engineering or some ****
vs. how much these scammers charge for a weekend course to learn a bar chart and moving averages, etc.
not much different than a years fees probably

is a year at a uni = to a weekend seminar/course
seriously

i would really like to know how much better prop/bank training is than the training you can do for free. for example there was a article posted here about a guy working at a bank (or somewhere) whose strategy was buying and selling based on how greenspan "sounded" when he spoke. not the literal words but the way they came out of his mouth. wow, great training, he obviously learnt a lot from the bank.lol

 

[trader_dante]

With due respect, TD, you must think of me what you wish.

I've followed you, off and on, since the "P-bar" thread and I do believe that there is some motive, other than helping for free, that drives you to keep posting here.

There is.

It's a powerful one, too.

It's called boredom.

 

[tafita]

tafita (et al):
I have added an edit to that post.
I was just getting frustrated at the noise rather than the data.
No insult meant at anyone. merely my frustrations (assumptions) showing.
I want something I can evaluate and quantify, rather than conjecture.

None taken from me. Everything's

The thing to do is support TD in his quest to get this resource out for the noobs. We could all do that with our collective experience but TD seems to be the only one who can be a*sed. He can also bring his experience of working with pro's to boot. It really is entirely up to him though.

 

[Paulie_5]

Cloud, you are missing the point.

Firstly, 5k gives you 3 months, full time. Yes there are weekend courses that cost 5k, but that isn't what we are talking about.

These 3 month/ 6 month courses aren't solely designed to make you a profitable trader (despite the way they are sold and the belief of most people who sign up on them)

They provide an infrastructure ... Bloomberg, Squarwk, charting software, continual advice from mentors . Books and web info may be free, but a whole trading environment is impossible to replicate for free.

As per my previous post, these course don't teach you how to trade profitably, but they provide an INTRODUCTION to assist you in becoming successful.

Take 2 people , both who are prepared to put in the same effort

1 does it for free online, researching and reading forums. Then opens a Spreadbetting account.
1 pays 5k to be in an office environment with experienced traders.

I know which one I'd back ...

 

[trader_dante]

as I understand it:

TD is offering to make available the equivalent of a £5K prop-shop training for FREE.
TD is offering to show how we can access professional set-ups, and feeds, etc, and the best places to find them, for nominal costs.
TD will show how to plan your day: by implication, what the pros look at (news, order flow perhaps) to structure their trading day, and their biases for that day.

I dont think he is offering a winning strategy, but merely the tools to give some advantage.
(maybe he can impart some inside knowledge from his experiences)

I cannot believe there is so much cynicism. There appears to me to be more upside than downside.

This reminds me that you should trade what you see, not what you think.

Why are people not evaluating the offer in front of them (what we can see), rather than concocting ever-outlandish reasons why its a con (what they think) ??

I would take the offer up to pick up new ideas/insights, dependent on there being no signing up to a specific broker, or any kind of long-term sign-up to services.

The only thing TD hasnt mentioned is length of course/training, and how he would deal with after-training back-up.

Either the previous posters are marginally-profitable traders looking after the pennies, or people badly burnt by expensive courses. (of course, we are assuming the courses were fine, its just they were bad students. workman, tools, blame, etc)

Surely, we are experienced and liquid enough to have a couple of K to blow on courses?

EDIT: maybe I was hasty with my "pennies" and "bad students" remarks. This offer is aimed at relative newbies, so very experienced traders may feel the course may not offer any new knowledge. But then, you have to balance the risk (what do I stand to lose) with the upside (what do I stand to gain).

Thanks Trendie. Honestly, from some of the criticism I get on here you would think I'm promising the holy grail for £100k per month rather than just wanting to expand the knowledge base.

Thing is, there are a lot of lurkers on these boards that have PM'd me without ever posting and they always push my thought processes in new directions. In my opinion (and if my inbox is any indication) there are a lot of newbies that deep down know there are a lot of scammers and are scared of parting with their money and know that there is info for free on the web but they have so many questions it could take them a lifetime to find them out and they would rather pay 5k and take the chance of being fleeced. It's all well and good to say "it's all out there for free" but its not in a centralised place which means that an important factor for many newbies is DIRECTION. They want to have facts available in one place and for many of them this is diretly related to TIME. People in day jobs have a few precious hours to learn and if you've learnt without paying a penny like I have you know how many years it can take of being in the dark before you get a single light come on.

For most of us this is all old hat and we have walked the path and profitable or not, we have the information but I was a newbie not long ago. Infact, I went to see Arbitrageur (incidentally where is he lately??) at his trading desk and he really inspired me when I was close to giving up. And I knew next to nothing. I remember being amazed that he had a 1 tick spread on the Bund. All I had ever known was 3 ticks. A lot changed when I was given a chance at a prop house. But like I said, I know how newbies think. They have a whole lot of info infront of them and they can't make head nor tail of it. They want to go about this like a professional but they don't know how. 50% maybe read thread after thread hoping it will illuminate them and 50% probably couldn't give a flying f*ck about trader_panties pin bars and want to know plain and simple, how does a professional futures trader, TRADE, at one of these firms in the city. Plain and simple.

Their mind buzzes:

- What charting do pros use?
- What software do they use to place orders?
- What feeds do they use for news?
- How expensive are all these things?
- What markets do they mostly trade?
- How do they trade? Do they scalp? Do they swing? Are they outright or spreads traders?
- What would they teach me on a prop course? What EXACTLY would they show me?
- What would I be told to look at each day?
- What specific excercises would I be asked to perform each day to increase my understanding?
- How should I structure my day? What time would I start? What time would I finish?

There is a lot in this list. And this is what some firms will now charge you £5k for.

And I started this thread to see who would pay that, since I know it all and have a habit of revealing all I know on here.

 

[trader_dante]

Cloud, you are missing the point.

Firstly, 5k gives you 3 months, full time. Yes there are weekend courses that cost 5k, but that isn't what we are talking about.

These 3 month/ 6 month courses aren't solely designed to make you a profitable trader (despite the way they are sold and the belief of most people who sign up on them)

They provide an infrastructure ... Bloomberg, Squarwk, charting software, continual advice from mentors . Books and web info may be free, but a whole trading environment is impossible to replicate for free.

As per my previous post, these course don't teach you how to trade profitably, but they provide an INTRODUCTION to assist you in becoming successful.

Take 2 people , both who are prepared to put in the same effort

1 does it for free online, researching and reading forums. Then opens a Spreadbetting account.
1 pays 5k to be in an office environment with experienced traders.

I know which one I'd back ...

Excellent post and now we're getting somewhere.

Whether your mentor is profitable doesn't come into it.

You are given the knowledge. The environment. The tools.

You are given time.

The rest is up to you.

And what I am saying is that there is another alternative which is a better way to spend your 5k or your 10k or however much, that will get you a better grounding.

 

[tafita]

Cloud, you are missing the point.

Firstly, 5k gives you 3 months, full time. Yes there are weekend courses that cost 5k, but that isn't what we are talking about.

These 3 month/ 6 month courses aren't solely designed to make you a profitable trader (despite the way they are sold and the belief of most people who sign up on them)

They provide an infrastructure ... Bloomberg, Squarwk, charting software, continual advice from mentors . Books and web info may be free, but a whole trading environment is impossible to replicate for free.

As per my previous post, these course don't teach you how to trade profitably, but they provide an INTRODUCTION to assist you in becoming successful.

Take 2 people , both who are prepared to put in the same effort

1 does it for free online, researching and reading forums. Then opens a Spreadbetting account.
1 pays 5k to be in an office environment with experienced traders.

I know which one I'd back ...

I'd back neither.

But I understand your point regarding 3/6 months ongoing support etc. If the point of a course is to assist noobs into becomming successful then any one of us can design such a course with powerpoint and make it very simple sticking purely to technical analysis, one market and three timeframes. That should not cost 5K. The 5K would be better spent by a noob who tested basic technical analysis on a demo account whilst keeping a trading diary who then placed very small trades after a successful strategy was born out of his/her own analysis. Being a old fashioned technical analyst, I dont get the need for news feeds, oscillators, hooks, bloomberg and Squarwk.