counter_violent
Legendary member
- Messages
- 12,637
- Likes
- 3,780
Yes indeed....but that can has now been filled with lead and it's much harder to kick it down the road !
Yes indeed....but that can has now been filled with lead and it's much harder to kick it down the road !
Maybe... the Greeks just want to leave the single currency, default, devalue and start to, or at least attempt to, build themselves a functioning economy moving forward.
I know it's pretty out there to imagine such a radical possibility but I fail to understand why everyone presumes the Greeks want to:
a) Repay their debt at all
b) Be in the Euro anymore as it will involve a)
c) Be beholdent to any other country, either now or, seemingly, forevermore.
Even a complete idiot can see it would be much easier to exit and start again with a new currency, rather than attempt to carry on lumbered with such a mountain of debt. I know we don't give the Greek government much credit, but I am surprised by the amount of people who presume Greece want some sort of resolution that involves staying in the single currency.
A haircut is not an option, so faced with the stark realities of the situation, what would you do?
Give them a little credit.
I know it's pretty out there to imagine such a radical possibility but I fail to understand why everyone presumes the Greeks want to:
a) Repay their debt at all
b) Be in the Euro anymore as it will involve a)
c) Be beholdent to any other country, either now or, seemingly, forevermore.
Even a complete idiot can see it would be much easier to exit and start again with a new currency, rather than attempt to carry on lumbered with such a mountain of debt. I know we don't give the Greek government much credit, but I am surprised by the amount of people who presume Greece want some sort of resolution that involves staying in the single currency.
A haircut is not an option, so faced with the stark realities of the situation, what would you do?
Give them a little credit.
Atilla
Legendary member
- Messages
- 20,775
- Likes
- 3,976
Maybe... the Greeks just want to leave the single currency, default, devalue and start to, or at least attempt to, build themselves a functioning economy moving forward.
I know it's pretty out there to imagine such a radical possibility but I fail to understand why everyone presumes the Greeks want to:
a) Repay their debt at all
b) Be in the Euro anymore as it will involve a)
c) Be beholdent to any other country, either now or, seemingly, forevermore.
Even a complete idiot can see it would be much easier to exit and start again with a new currency, rather than attempt to carry on lumbered with such a mountain of debt. I know we don't give the Greek government much credit, but I am surprised by the amount of people who presume Greece want some sort of resolution that involves staying in the single currency.
A haircut is not an option, so faced with the stark realities of the situation, what would you do?
Give them a little credit.
That may be the view of some but not all Greeks.
The referendum was to stay in Europe but no for Austerity. Polls suggest 75% want to stay and be European.
It's not easier to start again either. Printing, distributing and getting people to accept Drachma's not realistic. Parallel currencies maybe?
Hair cut and 30% debt write off is also on the table subject to tax & pension reforms. On good behaviour. If Greece leaves then I'd doubt they'll want to pay back anything.
Basically, they can't be forced out of the Euro. They can only stop using it if they choose to. I don't see why they would do that?
They are European. This is not defined by the single currency or Angela Merkel.
It's not hard that hard to start again. No idea why you would presume that is the case tbh. Borrowing money and issuing notes may be more difficult, but people will still buy them. As an example, many funds in the UK are invested in Mexican and Brazilian notes paying 10% and junk, sorry, 'high yield' corporate bonds, but the regulator still considers these funds safer for retail investors than investing in the FTSE 100.
The problem is that walking away and starting again and being the first to undercut the Euro, particularly on tourism, will create a precedent and then Angela Merkels little house of cards is going to all come tumbling down.
Hair Cut is highly unlikely as sets a precedent, then the whole Euro debt crises becomes even more farcical than before they announced they were printing another 125bn of them not long ago.
I may be wrong, but I doubt they have any real intention of staying in the Euro. All things considered...
It's not hard that hard to start again. No idea why you would presume that is the case tbh. Borrowing money and issuing notes may be more difficult, but people will still buy them. As an example, many funds in the UK are invested in Mexican and Brazilian notes paying 10% and junk, sorry, 'high yield' corporate bonds, but the regulator still considers these funds safer for retail investors than investing in the FTSE 100.
The problem is that walking away and starting again and being the first to undercut the Euro, particularly on tourism, will create a precedent and then Angela Merkels little house of cards is going to all come tumbling down.
Hair Cut is highly unlikely as sets a precedent, then the whole Euro debt crises becomes even more farcical than before they announced they were printing another 125bn of them not long ago.
I may be wrong, but I doubt they have any real intention of staying in the Euro. All things considered...
Atilla
Legendary member
- Messages
- 20,775
- Likes
- 3,976
Yes they can have the Drachma but it will be very hard. Not saying they can't. Think it through. You want to import what do you pay with? Dollars or Euros? What will the exchange rate be? Who will accept Drachma's knowing Government just going to keep printing more ( If expenditure > revenue ).
What else can they do?
Looking at massive inflation and colossal pain in shortages. Corruption wide across the country.
How long can they keep printing Drachma's??? Was like this before they joined the EU.
They will come to the end of the road and do exactly what the EU commission is proposing on them now? That is increase revenue and reform pensions. No free lunch. Accept they will have faced years of pain, riots and strife for what?
To realise they need to balance their books.
They can't have their cake and eat it. Time to face the music and reality.
I do hope they have the sense to accept wisdom of the EU. :idea:
I think Obama has whispered sweet I
Dollars?
Maybe... the Greeks just want to leave the single currency, default, devalue and start to, or at least attempt to, build themselves a functioning economy moving forward.
I know it's pretty out there to imagine such a radical possibility but I fail to understand why everyone presumes the Greeks want to:
a) Repay their debt at all
b) Be in the Euro anymore as it will involve a)
c) Be beholdent to any other country, either now or, seemingly, forevermore.
Even a complete idiot can see it would be much easier to exit and start again with a new currency, rather than attempt to carry on lumbered with such a mountain of debt. I know we don't give the Greek government much credit, but I am surprised by the amount of people who presume Greece want some sort of resolution that involves staying in the single currency.
A haircut is not an option, so faced with the stark realities of the situation, what would you do?
Give them a little credit.
That is ok, as far as it goes but they need money. I would not buy Greek government bonds, would you? Whatever, it is all speculation on our part.
It's more what we would like to happen. The reality will be quite different.
Pat494
Legendary member
- Messages
- 14,614
- Likes
- 1,588
It surprises me that the people responsible don't get any blame or recriminations.
This new idea of not chasing up those who made the mistakes and are just forgotten about. No doubt they lined their own pockets too.
This new laissez faire attitude means the defaults are likely to get worse with more fraudulent behaviour as no one will stand up to them.
The USA is the main culprit having a $17 trillion debt and pretends it doesn't exist. Honest people should be let into the Fort Knox stronghold just to check the gold is still there and the rumours are false.
This new idea of not chasing up those who made the mistakes and are just forgotten about. No doubt they lined their own pockets too.
This new laissez faire attitude means the defaults are likely to get worse with more fraudulent behaviour as no one will stand up to them.
The USA is the main culprit having a $17 trillion debt and pretends it doesn't exist. Honest people should be let into the Fort Knox stronghold just to check the gold is still there and the rumours are false.
2be
Senior member
- Messages
- 2,062
- Likes
- 367
Greece trust deficit, rather a nice way to say they do not trust Comrade Tsipras and his cronies
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-call-greece-trust-deficit-key-hurdle-to-deal
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-call-greece-trust-deficit-key-hurdle-to-deal
hhiusa
Senior member
- Messages
- 2,687
- Likes
- 139
It surprises me that the people responsible don't get any blame or recriminations.
This new idea of not chasing up those who made the mistakes and are just forgotten about. No doubt they lined their own pockets too.
This new laissez faire attitude means the defaults are likely to get worse with more fraudulent behaviour as no one will stand up to them.
The USA is the main culprit having a $17 trillion debt and pretends it doesn't exist. Honest people should be let into the Fort Knox stronghold just to check the gold is still there and the rumours are false.
We can carry all that debt because everyone lets us because they all want to be us. The highest number of immigrants come here to the good ol' USA. I really could not care any less about the Greek crisis. Their socialist behavior got them into to this mess. It does not affect me or the US in the slightest.
Last edited:
counter_violent
Legendary member
- Messages
- 12,637
- Likes
- 3,780
Those in the know think it does affect the US's credibility.
We have a situation where US influence is on the wane and there are very good reasons for this.
1) America is very good at telling others how to behave, except that they operate double standards...do as I say, not as I do.
2) Goldman's cooking the books for the Greeks so as to gain entry into this European shambles. It's very clear for all to see, that Greece was never going to meet entry criteria.
Don't expect that situation to go on for ever.
What happens when the Chinese (and others) call time on funding the US's debt.
It's not a question of "if" but "when".
hhiusa
Senior member
- Messages
- 2,687
- Likes
- 139
How is that? Why would I care a loss of credibility? Property values still continue to soar where I live. Unemployment is 3.4% where I live. The NYSE and NASDAQ have not been that affected or else I have not experienced any untoward effects.
Nobody else in Europe is going to catch us. If China surpasses the US, it will be even worse for Europe. Those tiny economies will come crawling to us for help.
Those in the know, know China has no need to do this as this would hurt them. China is making more money on American debt than anywhere else. China is heavily invested in the US. They have invested the US because it is the best place to be for their money. Calling in their debt would be cutting off their nose to spite their face.
I am sure you all heard about the German plan to kick Greece out the Euro for 5 years. I think the Germans are pissed at Greece for saying not long ago it will seize all German assets in the country as a compensation for the Nazi war crimes. I am not sure where this is going as there will be more discussions today. I hope this is within the forum's guidelines, there is a webinar I signed up for called "The Future of Greece." It is due tomorrow (Monday) at 13:00 GMT. It's free so I am in. https://attendee.gotowebinar.com/register/8271446023552744450 Could be interesting or crap but I have spare time.
Atilla
Legendary member
- Messages
- 20,775
- Likes
- 3,976
That is not a German plan.
It is only the view point of one MP and has been frowned upon and talked down by Merkel and many other MPs.
Get your facts straight.
I would have no objections to Greek's seizing Nazi assets. BUT to to seize German assets, who love Greece and have purchased property there would be a **** poor reaction and criminal theft.
"Give me the money or I'll shoot"
Not far from the truth is it?
Last edited:
That is not a German plan.
It is only the view point of one MP and has been frowned upon and talked down by Merkel and many other MPs.
Get your facts straight.
I would have no objections to Greek's seizing Nazi assets. BUT to to seize German assets, who love Greece and have purchased property there would be a **** poor reaction and criminal theft.
"Give me the money or I'll shoot"
Not far from the truth is it?
The problem with Greece, though, is a long list of broken promises by the government to EU.
There is little trust left in Europe for Greece and someone, a taxpayer, of course, is bearing the brunt of all this lost money which, if spread around European social security services, would make their financial health troubles go away.
counter_violent
Legendary member
- Messages
- 12,637
- Likes
- 3,780
What would the benefit be across the rest of Europe of socialising Greek losses ?
To my mind, the Greeks need to change their collective flawed mind set, not have some get out of jail free card so they can carry on as if nothing happened, with zero consequences.
There has to be a reason for why Brussels is so sympathetic towards Greece. _What is it?
If someone put this on "Boiler Room Scams" we would not believe that he could be so daft as to keep throwing good money after bad.
So what is it with Eurozone and Greece? In fact, I am ashamed of Brussels. The rest of the world must be looking on in wonderment at such bad money management.
counter_violent
Legendary member
- Messages
- 12,637
- Likes
- 3,780
I think you have it in a nutshell.
It's a face saving exercise and a propping up of a flawed EU project.
Britain has always known it is flawed, but the message was always ignored or derided across the rest of Europe.
The chickens have now come home to roost.
Atilla
Legendary member
- Messages
- 20,775
- Likes
- 3,976
Hi Jell,
May have to take back my previous comment as this news/rumour is gaining ground.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...it-idea-gets-qualified-nod-from-merkel-deputy
The idea of a temporary Greek exit from the euro, reprised Saturday by Germany’s Finance Ministry, won qualified support from Chancellor Angela Merkel’s deputy, signaling broader acceptance for such a step within her government.
Vice Chancellor Sigmar Gabriel, the chairman of Merkel’s Social Democratic coalition partner, said Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble’s plan for a five-year “time out” for Greece outside the euro was “known to the SPD.”
“In a difficult situation such as this, every conceivable proposal must be examined without prejudice,” Gabriel wrote early Sunday on his official Facebook page. “This proposal would only be achievable if the Greek government itself views it as the better alternative.”
Merkel’s Chancellery declined to comment on the plan, though Deutsche Presse Agentur on Saturday reported that everything Schaeuble negotiates with the euro-area finance ministers is signed off by Merkel. Deutsche Presse Agentur didn’t cite how it got its information.
Perhaps it is for real or just spin and sound-bites.
