Esoteric Methods

options said:
Would it be possible to clarify further on the significance of 7 and 13?
.
I had hoped my confidential reply would have remained so. However, as you have unilaterally taken this into the public domain I must categorically state there is absolutely NO significance in either the number 7 or 13 in relation to the topics you broach.

Neither is 23 of any significance whatsover - before you ask.
 
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TheBramble said:
I had hoped my confidential reply would have remained so. However, as you have unilaterally taken this into the public domain I must categorically state there is absolutely NO significance in either the number 7 or 13 in relation to the topics you broach.

Neither is 23 of any significance whatsover - before you ask.
That is correct, because 23 is The Goat.
 
a320 said:
some of them are secret fibs..... ( so I told & some charge for learning about them )

:cheesy:
I have just seen this.

That is exactly what you ought to do yourself in your own best interest, and keep your secrets to yourself, rather than persistently bombarding us with arcane nonsense
 
Hi Albert......trust your well :cool:

I do think you might be missing the context behind my post .... ;)


CJ
 
One other thing cs99rrf - do you ever get a feeling that you've left your signature somewhere else before?[/QUOTE]

I'm slightly confused what you mean by this. If you are refering to the name CS99RRF, then this was my student ID, till last september at Brunel University. If you are refering to any other post I have replied to, then I have replied to other posts on trading, but only on trade 2 win. If you imply anything else, please can you elaborate. Thanks. :p
 
cs99rrf said:
One other thing cs99rrf - do you ever get a feeling that you've left your signature somewhere else before?

Oh, sorry Bramble, you mean my SIGNITURE. I feel like an idiot now. I am new, so please don't hold this against me. I'll be quiet now. :eek: :eek: :eek:
 
a320 said:
Hi Albert......trust your well :cool:

I do think you might be missing the context behind my post .... ;)


CJ
I am very well thank you very much.
One of these days I am going to let you have all the facts, in order that you may be properly informed of them as a consequence of irrefutable supportable documented evidence, rather than what I percieve you may be subject to as a consequence of being misdirected.

Kind Regards.
 
Salty Gibbon said:
cs99rf

Why do you use the term esoteric in this context ?

esoteric

adj : confined to and understandable by only an enlightened inner circle; "a compilation of esoteric philosophical theories"

It seems that, in general, people consider such methods as voodoo :devilish: . But, I could be wrong, hence I started this thread. The golden numbers occur everywhere in the universe, so they occur in every context. Don't mean to contradict, but I'm quite new to trading so I would appreciate opinions on these views from as many people as possible, including you Salty. Thanks. :p :p :p
 
Salty Gibbon said:
cs99rf

Why do you use the term esoteric in this context ?

When I was doing my MSc in Computer Science, I was looking at Fibs in the context of Artificial Intelligence. Therefore, I was looking at the potential a computer to think, learn, and even become alive. This did delve into the context of philosophy. It also opened my eyes :idea: .

I have been into long term investments for a couple of years now, in the form of investing in small caps. This was to fund the student life (basically pay for my student bar tabs).

I started reading up on Fibs and the stock market. Also, have looked into the Elliot wave etc. It is so intriguing that i'm using these methods, along with price action and trend patterns, to paper trade. I have never spoken in person to anyone regarding these methods due to people thinking I might be crazy, but then came across trade 2 win. There have been threads on Fibs and no indicators, which have been quite interesting. I am weary about indicators, because I feel they slightly lag behind actual market price, eg moving averages.

Since I finished uni, I have been fixated with watching the markets. See how they move, etc. I find it intriguing.

This is why I have used esoteric methods in this context.

I would love to become a successful trader, but if I fail at least I have my degree to fall back on. (I believe that I will succeed) If I don't try this now, when I have no responsibilities, then I will kick myself. I have the belief in my trading plan, but I want to improve my plan with more research and also get myself prepared psychologically. I also am doing 1p trades, via SB, to iron out any problems that I have.

I would love to hear other peoples views. :D :D :D
 
In my view, esoteric, is not a proper way to describe what you ask. A more acceptable description would be "not mainstream". There is nothing mystical about the application of efficient and sensible trading techniques, because nearly all of it is common sense.

But the kind of common sense that has to be applied to this is not everyday, mainstream common sense, it is a very special kind of common sense that is not used for other ordinary purposes. Then it seems as if the reasoning and logical deduction which this requires at a mechanical level appears as if it were esoteric because it is not mainstream.

In large measure, the reasoning that people do in their ordinary lives falls short of what is required here.

But it is not madly difficult, it is just different. But it is different in an intangible sense, and to a very large extent experiential, therefore in ordinary terms it is difficult to pin, and I think that that is where part of the problem lies.

Another problem is that the market delivers its verdict. The verdict arrives before the trial. The verdict is irrevocable. There is no appeal. This is a shock for which ordinary life does not prepare people. It seems cruel and unfair, or the result of bad luck. It is nothing of the sort, it is the way it is. Therefore the correct tactics have to be used to deal with this kind of scenario, not the wrong ones.

Another problem is that there are many people who may be very well educated, and indeed highly intelligent, but they are not suited to this at all, by virtue of the fact that their opinions insofar as they are concerned from their perspective are valid. This is not the case. The market does not respect opinions.

The market only respects views, the correct views. I will add that an opinion is a view tainted by emotion.

Again, the market does not respect emotions, and makes no allowance for feelings of any sort. In ordinary life a person without emotion would be considered to be a sort of freak by his peers. Emotions are an affordable luxury in ordinary life. They count for nothing in trading, and are not a luxury any trader can afford, to the contrary, they are a nuisance because of the ability they carry to disable logic and reason.

Finally, in ordinary life, it is perfectly acceptable to have beliefs, whether these are religious, cultural, political or otherwise. In this domain there is no room for belief, only stark reality. Nether is there any room for the consequences of belief, such as hope, or fear, or charity, or piety, or conscience, but there is a requirement to behave properly, according to the rules of engagement which are the rules of the market, and not those of the individual who might want wish or hope to impose them.

There can't be and isn't any opportunity for forcing. All these things are connected to one another. They have to be abandoned and replaced by open mindedness, acceptance, and availability, and self governance, of the highest order.

And there you have it, you cannot complain that I do not tell you everything.
 
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SOCRATES said:
In my view, esoteric, is not a proper way to describe what you ask. A more acceptable description would be "not mainstream". There is nothing mystical about the application of efficient and sensible trading techniques, because nearly all of it is common sense.

Wow, thanks for that Socrates. A new way to look at it, non-mainstream. Also, I completely agree with your statement regarding the abandaning of emotions in this game. Hence, the psychology of trading is VERY important.

Not mainstream-Now thats a concept that makes me feel less insane. :D :D :D
 
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Hi cs,

I use Elliott Wave analysis to trade UK (and more recently, US) stocks with a fair amount of success. Elliott Wave analysis makes extensive use of fib levels and I am amazed at how often it is able to identify turning points. Maybe it is just coincidence, but it seems to work for me. And there, I think is the key - you have to find something that you are comfortable with and works for you. (Well, at least the key to part of the trading conundrum - there are other crucial aspects as well, such as money-management , cultivating the right mental attitude and so on).

Good luck with your trading .

Regards,

ivorm
 
cs99rrf said:
SOCRATES said:
In my view, esoteric, is not a proper way to describe what you ask. A more acceptable description would be "not mainstream". There is nothing mystical about the application of efficient and sensible trading techniques, because nearly all of it is common sense.

Wow, thanks for that Socrates. A new way to look at it, non-mainstream. Also, I completely agree with your statement regarding the abandaning of emotions in this game. Hence, the psychology of trading is VERY important.

Not mainstream-Now thats a concept that makes me feel less insane. :D :D :D
The explanation I gave you above is about one quarter of the answer.

The clue lies in the sentence, and I quote "Then it seems as if the reasoning and logical deduction which this requires at a mechanical level appears as if it were esoteric because it is not mainstream".

This is rather like facing a lock you have to open. You cannot open the lock unless you have the correct key. No other key will open it. This is because the lock itself is constructed in such a way IN ADVANCE OF THE EVENT so that no other key will open it. The same would apply to a safe, but instead of using a key, you would use a prearranged combination. No other combination will open the safe other than that preset. I hope and expect you are able to follow so far that what we have done with this idea so far is to transmute it from a tangible concept (use of a key = physical) into an intangible concept (use of a combination=abstract)
Both of them are very real, but very different, but they both serve the same purpose. By the way, a lock has three main functions for the purpose of illustrating this excercise.

1. To only allow suitable people in.

2. To demonstrate that the area that is locked is only accesible to key holders.

3 To keep unsuitable people out.

The market does this very efficiently. It denies access by degrees. It allows total and free access to the efficient and denies minimised and restricted access to the inefficient. This is not cruel or mean. It is the selection process that the market imposes. I have listed in my previous post the main criteria it demands from key applicants before they can be considered. Then there is the question of knowledge, the correct knowledge and not just any knowledge. The correct knowledge is difficult to acquire because you must understand and accept that this correct knowledge is so precious that it has to be jealously guarded. Therefore access to it is difficult, impossible if you have the wrong set of keys.

db phoenix in another post of his mentions a glint of gold in connection with another idea.
Here we are talking of the bullion, cast into bars, and kept in the vaults. The bullion is not accesible to everybody, but everyone will have had the experience of seeing gold glinting.
The bullion is only accesible to approved key holders. These approved key holders have earnt the right to hold the keys, and to take bullion in and out as they please. This is because they have approached all of this in the correct way and not in the incorrect way.

Anyone who aspires has to submit to what I outline in my post above. The market does not care for those who do not submit, it punishes them for their intransigence and takes their money as a result, so that in the end there is no more glint and very far from bullion.
What I describe above is the minimum that the market demands at a mechanical level, no more, no less. Yet the great majority are unable to achieve even this, as a consequence of ingrained inabilities and a reluctance to confront their difficulties, that, like the numbers that relate to a combination lock are intangible problems but, as a consequence of these inabilities are made very real.

The mechanical level is the most basic level of proficiency that the market demands. It is rock bottom basic.

The esoteric level is unattainable to most ordinary people who are already finding the mechanical level a struggle. The mechanical level has to be mastered first. In all of it there is order and structure, like a Meccano Set. What happens is that individuals are prone to particularly like one cog in preference to another, or one perforated bar becomes a favourite in preference to the whole assortment required to do the job correctly. No one can constuct anything effectively by behaving like this, but to my horror and sadness it is the case, in that people are apt to choose the bits out of the Meccano Set that they particularly like, ignoring all the other bits.This is a disaster and I am not going to dwell on it any longer, I have said enough about this on other threads and from the general feedback that returns, in general it seems to fall on deaf ears.

At the esoteric level wonderful things happen. You need to be absolute master of the mechanical before the esoteric level can be disseminated and indeed understood. This is why there is so much discussion about it. It attracts the interest of members who are subliminally aware that there is something more. There is a lot more and it represents the bullion.

Kind Regards.
 
ivorm said:
Hi cs,

I use Elliott Wave analysis to trade UK (and more recently, US) stocks with a fair amount of success.

Thanks for your post. Before, when I used to read the boards, people seemed very cynical. But everyone is the total opposite. Applaud yourselves, and don't listen to people who are very negative of you.

:D :D :D
 
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SOCRATES said:
The explanation I gave you above is about one quarter of the answer.

The clue lies in the sentence, and I quote "Then it seems as if the reasoning and logical deduction which this requires at a mechanical level appears as if it were esoteric because it is not mainstream".

I am not about to give a negative reply to your post. On the contrary, I think it is quite informative. I'm the first to admit that I am new to trading. But I have spent a long time looking into the mechanics of trading, before I even heard of esoteric or "non-mainstream."

Now I try to research them both at the same time, because I think that they can be used hand in hand.

But there does seem to be no right or wrong answer. It seems that what is right is ascertained by the individual. You also mention the "keys", which is quite interesting. I feel I have just begun my quest, and I hope that one day I will obtain your "keys to the bullion."

At the same time I believe there is no holy grail. It seems that a crusade has begun, where people are searching for a holy grail, but these people will not have a happy ending.

Regards

:D :D :D
 
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ivorm said:
Hi cs,

I use Elliott Wave analysis to trade UK (and more recently, US) stocks with a fair amount of success. Elliott Wave analysis makes extensive use of fib levels and I am amazed at how often it is able to identify turning points. Maybe it is just coincidence, but it seems to work for me. And there, I think is the key - you have to find something that you are comfortable with and works for you. (Well, at least the key to part of the trading conundrum - there are other crucial aspects as well, such as money-management , cultivating the right mental attitude and so on).

Good luck with your trading .

Regards,

ivorm

Thanks for your post. Before, when I used to read the boards, people seemed very cynical. But everyone is the total opposite. Applaud yourselves, and don't listen to people who are very negative of you. :D :D :D
 
Socrates,

re: combinations / keys etc.

I dont want to misinterpret your post, but the implication is that there is ONLY ONE combination, or ONLY ONE key.

I am sure that there are many styles of trading which result in profit, each with their respective downsides.

There has to be many combinations and many keys that fit this safe / lock ?
 
One has to confront the Lonza in order to control the Doppleganger.
 
I would say that the markets themselves are esoteric, not the methods adopted to trade them.

Any gathering of thousands of people all doing their own thing within the confines of a certain market environment must be regarded as mind boggling, mysterious and even mystical.

You have clever people, not so clever people, devious people, fringe lunatics and other assorted weirdos all striving for the same thing - PROFIT. No wonder the markets do strange, illogical and unintelligible things.

Mindblowing really and quite esoteric ?
 
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