Does anyone Spreadbet for a living?

[StephenMcCreedy]

yes but i'm used to trading futures with ib and trading inside of the spread. with cantor it's 2 points and on slow days you really feel it. personally i think in every variation of trading the advice i would give is trade less with larger targets. i feel this is even more important in spreadbetting as there are bad prices and fills and skew and you can combat this the most when aiming for 30 point moves (for instance) than 5-10 point moves that i feel some people do when they start out. by the way i like your name (black swan) good book and got more out of it when i re read, probably due a reread.

ftse weakening but even though i'm short i'm not comfortable. the market is thin and it can take an hour to fall 10 and retake the whole lot in a minute when it wants to.

 

[Sunshine On Leith]

Pboyles, no need to get stroppy, it was a genuine question because your original message says you took profit at 1160.5 not 1169.5 so I thought you were talking about a 10 point profit not scalping 1 point.

I think its commonly accepted that spreadbetting and scalping do not mix. This is pretty clear to everyone. However, scalping is not the only form of 'real' trading. Many other forms of profitable trading are perfectly suitable to spreadbetting.

Which takes me back to my oroginal point that the OP needs to decide his style and instrument before anyone can tell him to spreadbet or not.

 

[Black Swan]

I just wanted know if anyone really spredbets for a living? or are you all day trading on Tradestation or other platforms?

Cheers,

Dean

Not anymore, I did and was profitable, pulling down a well above average tax free wage...and before anyone *starts* I aint even gonna debate it, profit from SB is completely tax free, endex.

Now it's v. important that you don't get dragged down this culdesac of nonsense regarding SB firms being bookies, manipulating charts, prices/spreads, not giving you fills etc...If you swing/intraday trade, which is quite frankly all you should be looking at if SBing, you'll find it as reliable and functional as DMA. You cannot scalp effectively or trade of v.short term TFs using SB firms, they are quite frankly not set up to deal with that kind of trading so do not waste your time trying to develop an edge to do so. If you want to trade off short term TFs open a dma account with FXCM, Alpari or FXpro.

Regards spreads, IG are charging 2 pip for EU, AU, 3 for cable...sure you can better it by a % of a pip with dma, but the benefit for you starting out is you can play with micro lots (v.small SB opening account balance), most dma firms can't offer you this facility in the UK, fxcm requires a couple of grand to start off...

Just meant to add, I agree with S on L up thread, get your trading right, decide on how what you want to trade, if you get it right with SB then chances are you're in the game and can then consider moving on/up to dma...

 

[Bakedbean]

Stephen,

Sorry, but are you the same as (2nd Post)

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/us-indices/22794-dow-2007-a-41.html

Just thought I recognised your name.

Anyway, thanks for the posts, have finally finished reading the spread betting threads and it seems everyone has their own reasons for doing what they are good at. So it still leaves me in limbo.

I am going to have a read into the emini futures and see how they stack up.

Just so you know, I have been SB on the FTSE rolling daily with play account on Tradefair. Three weeks, using my own personal system generally looking for 10-30 points normally between 30 mins to a few hours. I am not getting on too bad, Up to £20k in three weeks. Still learning though.

Thanks again, I will keep an eye out on this post as I am going back to heavy computer reading on Futures.

Cheers,

Dean

 

[pboyles]

Pboyles, no need to get stroppy, it was a genuine question because your original message says you took profit at 1160.5 not 1169.5 so I thought you were talking about a 10 point profit not scalping 1 point.

I think its commonly accepted that spreadbetting and scalping do not mix. This is pretty clear to everyone. However, scalping is not the only form of 'real' trading. Many other forms of profitable trading are perfectly suitable to spreadbetting.

Which takes me back to my oroginal point that the OP needs to decide his style and instrument before anyone can tell him to spreadbet or not.

My fault, I meant 1169.50 (4 ticks), is it correct to assume that its not possible on a SB right?

 

[Sunshine On Leith]

yes but i'm used to trading futures with ib and trading inside of the spread. with cantor it's 2 points and on slow days you really feel it. personally i think in every variation of trading the advice i would give is trade less with larger targets. i feel this is even more important in spreadbetting as there are bad prices and fills and skew and you can combat this the most when aiming for 30 point moves (for instance) than 5-10 point moves that i feel some people do when they start out. by the way i like your name (black swan) good book and got more out of it when i re read, probably due a reread.

ftse weakening but even though i'm short i'm not comfortable. the market is thin and it can take an hour to fall 10 and retake the whole lot in a minute when it wants to.

If your style allows a few mins discretion over your entry and exit points why dont you use your broker feed to look for an opportuniity when an SB firm skews their prices in your favour and you can execute better than the real market. I do this using my bloomberg feed and it usually only takes a few mins to get the opportunity hence no spread, no com and no tax. But I cant be 'real trading' as its with SB I suppose........

 

[Bakedbean]

Not anymore, I did and was profitable, pulling down a well above average tax free wage...and before anyone *starts* I aint even gonna debate it, profit from SB is completely tax free, endex.

Now it's v. important that you don't get dragged down this culdesac of nonsense regarding SB firms being bookies, manipulating charts, prices/spreads, not giving you fills etc...If you swing/intraday trade, which is quite frankly all you should be looking at if SBing, you'll find it as reliable and functional as DMA. You cannot scalp effectively or trade of v.short term TFs using SB firms, they are quite frankly not set up to deal with that kind of trading so do not waste your time trying to develop an edge to do so. If you want to trade off short term TFs open a dma account with FXCM, Alpari or FXpro.

Regards spreads, IG are charging 2 pip for EU, AU, 3 for cable...sure you can better it by a % of a pip with dma, but the benefit for you starting out is you can play with micro lots (v.small SB opening account balance), most dma firms can't offer you this facility in the UK, fxcm requires a couple of grand to start off...

Just meant to add, I agree with S on L up thread, get your trading right, decide on how what you want to trade, if you get it right with SB then chances are you're in the game and can then consider moving on/up to dma...

Thanks black swan. An honest answer. Yes or No would have suffice

Just messing. Anyway, thanks again.

Dean

 

[StephenMcCreedy]

yes dean, that is me! couldn't get old password as email not in use anymore so decided it was as easy to start from scratch, my history on here isn't worth much.

if you are making a go of it spreadbetting you will perhaps find futures even easier. as black swan said the main advantage is being able to start small and increase incrementally.

trading is a mind game and a good trader can go wrong when going from 1 contract (£10pp) to 2 (£20pp) if not careful. spreadbetting is a nice way to increase slowly and surely.

the truth is each to their own i think. my advice is only find out what works for you. i got on well with futures but i became too quick to scalp, moving back to spreadbet slowed me down. no reason for it, just suited me.

just for fun, and to completely discredit anything i say from now on i want to paste my trading rules. if you can take anything of use from them great, if not, well they work for me:

1.trade less to make more
2.bet pennies to make pounds
3.don't trade too many markets
4.be realistic about returns
5.bet small to give yourself a chance
6.think longterm
7.run winners
8.cut losers
9.know yourself
10.take breaks

 

[Sunshine On Leith]

My fault, I meant 1169.50 (4 ticks), is it correct to assume that its not possible on a SB right?

Yes definitely agree with that. Youd be mad to try to execute that sort of trade using SB.

 

[pboyles]

If your style allows a few mins discretion over your entry and exit points why dont you use your broker feed to look for an opportuniity when an SB firm skews their prices in your favour and you can execute better than the real market. I do this using my bloomberg feed and it usually only takes a few mins to get the opportunity hence no spread, no com and no tax. But I cant be 'real trading' as its with SB I suppose........

Can you post an example? Is it the case that the SB feed is slower than DMA?

 

[Bakedbean]

1.trade less to make more - Done it
2.bet pennies to make pounds - Maybe
3.don't trade too many markets - Only FTSE but once comfortable will upgrade to another indice
4.be realistic about returns - I have targets, but plan allows me to negotiate with it not on stops but on profits
5.bet small to give yourself a chance - Stops are wicked, what could have been -£1000 is now only -£200
6.think longterm -
7.run winners - Still praticing that
8.cut losers- Stops do this, but to be fair at this moment, only one in six stop out
9.know yourself - Ran an unsuccesful business and a half decent one so definetely know what hard knocks are like
10.take breaks - I smoke - its all good

Thanks for the above. Honestly though, I have read through a vast amount of rubbish in the last three weeks or so and got to the point where I took everyones advice and decided to use what I think is good and then bin the rest (not that it was bad just didnt like it). I started off reading about scalping, tried it for a few days and didnt do too bad making £30 - 60 ish but got fed up with it as it seemed it was more of a guessing game. So still kept it short term but intraday and am finding I love it. 3 in 5 days am normally done by lunch and can go and play golf plus also, there is enough to keep me occupied with 3-4 trades per day. 50 - 60 got quite tedious.

PS what is going on with the FTSE right now? shot up 14pts in 6-7 minutes most action I have seen since this morning!!!

 

[pboyles]

Thanks for the above. Honestly though, I have read through a vast amount of rubbish in the last three weeks or so and got to the point where I took everyones advice and decided to use what I think is good and then bin the rest (not that it was bad just didnt like it). I started off reading about scalping, tried it for a few days and didnt do too bad making £30 - 60 ish but got fed up with it as it seemed it was more of a guessing game. So still kept it short term but intraday and am finding I love it. 3 in 5 days am normally done by lunch and can go and play golf plus also, there is enough to keep me occupied with 3-4 trades per day. 50 - 60 got quite tedious.

PS what is going on with the FTSE right now? shot up 14pts in 6-7 minutes most action I have seen since this morning!!!

US consumer confidence better than expected?

 

[meanreversion]

I trade a medium term system using IG and it's fine. The notion that spread betting is you vs the bookie is crap. Some of my trades I've had on for a couple of months; are you telling me IG will keep the other side open? No, they don't really care if you make or lose money, they make money from the spread and will (for the most part) hedge out their risk in the market when they can.

One other way they make money (and this is the one that impacts me) is the overnight roll charge, over and above the market tom/next rate. For the pleasure of keeping a position open (in FX) they charge 2 pct / annum. For GBP/USD, this equates to a pip a night.

I've recently started looking into futures but here are the problems -

1. Margins are onerous, approx. 3 times that on IG
2. Discrete amounts, i.e. I can't trade 5.5 futures so have to choose between 5 or 6 (the obvious answer is to go conservative and choose 5, but if the system has positive expectancy, consistently rounding down will reduce profits)
3. My system trades off spot triggers, it could be fiddly leaving orders in the futures

Main advantage of futures are low spreads and no roll charge, but at this stage it's not enough to make me want to switch. Lower margin and tax free gains on SB are preferable for the moment.

 

[Bakedbean]

US consumer confidence better than expected?

Thanks Pboyles.

I hate trading in my office, no TV, no live news feed. But then am trading with tradefair and IG charts and news. At least I have Bloomberg/CNBC at home!

 

[Sunshine On Leith]

Can you post an example? Is it the case that the SB feed is slower than DMA?

Sure, just opened IG and at 15.03pm and 40 seconds (ish!) you could sell DAX cash at 6178.3 but the real market was 6177.88.

I guess I could have just made that up but ts really, really common. Give it a try.

I dont really mind paying a 1 point spread spread as my strategy is much longer than yours but I tend to look for these opportunities whenever I trade just to give me the satisfaction. Bit sad really.

Im not sure if its cos they are slower or they just skew their prices a bit to suit their book (probably more likely) but you can play them at their own game use it to your advantage if you have the luxury of a bit of time.

 

[pboyles]

Well good luck to you with SB, all I know is that trading futures you do not have any of the platform/slippage/spread issues that you have with SB. I have tried both extensively and futures are vastly superior for me.

 

[tar]

Well good luck to you with SB, all I know is that trading futures you do not have any of the platform/slippage/spread issues that you have with SB. I have tried both extensively and futures are vastly superior for me.

U will experience platform/slippage issues with futures trading as well ...

 

[pboyles]

U will experience platform/slippage issues with futures trading as well ...

Havnt done so far, some issues on SIM but live platform is reliable so far. Emini S&P is very liquid.

 

[meanreversion]

I've been told that if your margin isn't sufficient, your futures positions get zapped at market, automatically. At least with a SB company, you'll get a phone call first..

 

[tar]

Well good luck to you with SB, all I know is that trading futures you do not have any of the platform/slippage/spread issues that you have with SB. I have tried both extensively and futures are vastly superior for me.

regarding spreads , these days u can have 1 pt on Ftse and Dax and 2 or 3 pt on the Dow with SB providers that is the same cost with futures trading unless u scalp tens of times daily and u want to trade inside the spread then yeah DMA better especially for bigger size trades ...