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0FXTrader0
Sports gambling sites do not have a *
*depending on one's individual circumstances
*depending on one's individual circumstances
Difference between Spread betting and CFDs
- Thread starter small_bites
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I doubt there has been any successful case against a punter that only trades.
So long as you don't start some type of business off the back of trading you will be fine. You will still need to declare your winnings else face investigation if flagged and the money can't be explained by any tax return you have filed. You would win the case but it would be something you could avoid so it is important to keep your trading results and proof of withdrawing safe should that day come.
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0FXTrader0
I would always fade a spread bettor's opinion. Traders I have known have had a limited company or traded for a prop firm. I don't know of any spread bettors coining the markets all I hear is how the majority are in the red.
One of the major reasons for having a ltd was to protect from unlimited losses but now retail rules protect you from this but its still does not mean you have unlimited upside of tax free profits when you achieve this 2-5yrs you will become liable to tax so may as well trade with a reputable cfd provider.
One of the major reasons for having a ltd was to protect from unlimited losses but now retail rules protect you from this but its still does not mean you have unlimited upside of tax free profits when you achieve this 2-5yrs you will become liable to tax so may as well trade with a reputable cfd provider.
barjon
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Incorrect.
Spreadbetting providers are bookmakers and are subject to a betting levy on profits from their activities. Suffice to say this is better for the revenue than levying tax on a punter. (The tax rules on all betting activity changed in the early 2000's when Gordon Brown was chancellor and he introduced the betting levy)
I have been spreadbetting since 2003, and complete a self assessment tax return each year. There is no requirement to record any income from any betting activity.
As I have stated previously, as have many others, a retail client (or even a professional under the ESMA categorisation) does not pay tax on SB earnings because of the categorisation of the instrument.
I have been spreadbetting since 2003, and complete a self assessment tax return each year. There is no requirement to record any income from any betting activity.
As I have stated previously, as have many others, a retail client (or even a professional under the ESMA categorisation) does not pay tax on SB earnings because of the categorisation of the instrument.
barjon
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And here’s why:
HMRC internal manual
Business Income Manual
From:HM Revenue & CustomsPublished:22 November 2013Updated:27 January 2021, see all updatesSearch this manualsearch
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Meaning of trade: exceptions and alternatives: betting and gambling - the professional gambler
You should check the other guidance available on GOV.UK from HMRC as Brexit updates to those pages are being prioritised before manuals.
The fact that a taxpayer has a system by which they place their bets, or that they are sufficiently successful to earn a living by gambling does not make their activities a trade.
The case of Graham v Green [1925] 9TC309 concerned a man whose sole means of livelihood came from betting on horses at starting prices. Rowlatt J says at pages 313 and 314:
‘Now we come to betting, pure and simple… the man who bets with the bookmaker, and that is this case. These are mere bets. Each time he puts on his money, at whatever may be the starting price. I do not think he could be said to organise his effort in the same way as a bookmaker organises his. I do not think the subject matter from his point of view is susceptible of it. In effect all he is doing is just what a man does who is a skilful player at cards, who plays every day. He plays today and he plays tomorrow and he plays the next day and he is skilful on each of the three days, more skilful on the whole than the people with whom he plays, and he wins. But I do not think that you can find, in his case, any conception arising in which his individual operations can be said to be merged in the way that particular operations are merged in the conception of a trade. I think all you can say of that man … is that he is addicted to betting. It is extremely difficult to express, but it seems to me that people would say he is addicted to betting, and could not say that his vocation is betting. The subject is involved in great difficulty of language, which I think represents great difficulty of thought. There is no tax on a habit. I do not think ”habitual” or even “systematic” fully describes what is essential in the phrase “trade, adventure, profession or vocation”.’
This shows that having expertise or being systematic (‘studying form’) is not enough to create a trade of being a ‘professional gambler’.
Some ‘professional gamblers’ do carry on a trade, for example, where they receive appearance money for appearing on television programmes. They are providing a service to a customer (the television production company) for reward. Whether their gambling winnings are proceeds of that trade would depend upon the facts.
Same here - since 1999, in my case.
Always my primary income, and in some years my sole income. Never taxed, obviously.
I see that in the earlier long thread on this subject in which I took part (it was actually back in 2005, not "ten years ago" as I mistakenly claimed earlier in this thread), all the same "arguments" (if you can call them such) were made by people who believed that spreadbetting was taxable.
Nothing has changed their mind. Nothing will. Not HMRC's own statements. Not even a court ruling.
It's like trying to argue rationally and intelligently with people who believe that Covid is a hoax and/or that vaccines alter your DNA. You're never going to win. No amount of logic, reason and evidence will ever defeat prejudice, in an internet forum "discussion". It isn't relevant to the people arguing that spreadbetting is taxable. They don't need to look at it. They already know that they're right (which is all that matters to them).
I should never have posted here. I apologise. I thought correcting blatant misinformation might just help someone.
I won't post again on this subject.
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should you start a business by offering signals, teaching, or managing accounts then you would be deemed carrying on the trade as you have used your trading as a means to support your business.
Most would get away without needing to declare their profits but should you deposit large winnings and it is flagged, then you will need to be prepared to show how you came by said profit, becsue you did not declare it and they need to know as it meets their investigation criteria. Had you declared it then the flag would have been ignored as they have corresponding records of the source of the money.
You have never been flagged because you haven't deposited sizeable winnings and hence its not an issue. I have had hmrc ask me to prove where 10k deposits into my account had come from. Maybe 10k is the minimum threshold for a flag to be Investigated, maybe I was just unlucky. It isn't the first time I have heard of a 10k amount flagging an Investigation though, I know others that have experienced similar
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0FXTrader0
You guys have just put J.P. Morgan, GS, Citi and all the major wealth managers out of business why would any sensible HNWI invest in CFD's or the underlying when they can just choose their favourite spread bet provider and invest tax free 👏🏼 👏🏼 👏🏼
my god 0FX. Read the words. they is professional. they is not gamblers, they is liable, whether they spreadbet or not
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0FXTrader0
The individuals investing with them not the banks themselves
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0FXTrader0
I was looking the other day at a £50k CFD short in a AIM miner booked by UBS, why does UBS not other the spread bet product to its customers?
my apologies 0FX. indeed why not. primarily because they can't do it themselves. I manage money on behalf of individuals, they have money yet not the faintest idea what to do with it. not a clue with what a sipp or isa or other tax efficient means are out there. they wouldn't know a trend if it smacked them on the nose. they believe still that buy and hold is the only way to go. so they place it in the hands of professionals thinking they know something they dont.
many advisors simply stick it in a fund, do nothing and charge them for it
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0FXTrader0
Anyone who could save tax would save tax there financial advisor would put them into spread betting even if they don't know what a trend is. If it was tax free which it is not for regular winners or large investors.
of course not. spreadbetting still incurs charges. the charge itself can outweigh the gain over the long term
its only a tool buddy. a tax efficient one, but doesnt mean its the right tool for every scenario
MasterOfCoin
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Fine. You go pay some taxes, if it pleases you.
All the rest of the retail spread-betters will pocket their gains tax free.
😁
All the rest of the retail spread-betters will pocket their gains tax free.
😁
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0FXTrader0
In the early days of retail forex Barclays, Deutsche Bank and Citi got involved and had retail platforms guess what they did not offer spread betting they offered CFD's why do think they fled the market.
they are over the short term yes. but if I wanted dividend income within my portfolio? its just one tool which I think you perhaps beginning to come round to, but its just one of many. anyway, fun as its been I sincerely hope you read through this thread again, with a more open mind and realise sometimes that because everyone is saying the same thing, its not collective mass histeria or herd mentality. its because it is.
and please do not declare your spreadbetting gains to HMRC as capital gains
There's lots of opinion here but not much evidence.
Suitable evidence which would prove SB is taxable would be a number of SB users who are subject to tax on their SB profits. Otherwise this is all just speculation.
Has any SB'er ever posted that they are paying tax on their SB winnings? Here, ever, or anywhere, ever?
Suitable evidence which would prove SB is taxable would be a number of SB users who are subject to tax on their SB profits. Otherwise this is all just speculation.
Has any SB'er ever posted that they are paying tax on their SB winnings? Here, ever, or anywhere, ever?
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0FXTrader0
Amazing how many come out of the wood work for these tax threads just shows most don't get professional advice but rather justify themselves by links to HMRC content, I guess that what separates the amateur from the professional: DIY investors.
Best option for tax free investing is to max out an ISA each year and trade AIM penny shares.
MoneyAdviceService is a government website of the Department for Work and Pensions and would not be giving false advice.
moneyandpensionsservice.org.uk
www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk
Independent accountants give professional unbiased advice...try it. Rather than feel protected by the mass of punters who think for themselves because it's in there own interest.
Why is there no GAMESTOP and gambling aware on spread betting sites its because they differ from sports betting shops.
Best option for tax free investing is to max out an ISA each year and trade AIM penny shares.
MoneyAdviceService is a government website of the Department for Work and Pensions and would not be giving false advice.
The Money and Pensions Service | Building financial wellbeing
Introducing the Money and Pensions Service The Money and Pensions Service (MaPS) is an arm’s-length body sponsored by the Department for Work and Pensions, established at the beginning of 2019, and also engages with HM Treasury on policy matters relating to financial capability and debt advice...
moneyandpensionsservice.org.uk
High-risk investment products | MoneyHelper
Investments that promise big returns often come with big risks. They're not illegal or scams but you could end up losing money. Read about the main types in this guide.
www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk
Independent accountants give professional unbiased advice...try it. Rather than feel protected by the mass of punters who think for themselves because it's in there own interest.
Why is there no GAMESTOP and gambling aware on spread betting sites its because they differ from sports betting shops.
