Calling all "Senior Members T2W" Experienced traders! Help Newbies?

[Mr. Charts]

sorry again

................those feelings of previous financial loss and lack of self - confidence gradually abate as they are replaced by the positive mind set of calm on - going success and profit.
The process IS a slow one, but slowly and surely the pulse rate and blood pressure settle to normal levels on successive trades until you react as normally as you do when you are an experienced car driver.
Like most situations in life you adapt and cope.
To quote FDR, "you have nothing to fear but fear itself".
Although trading is, imho, quite unlike any other activity, there are solutions to all the problems.
Obstacles and difficulties are there to be overcome or moved around, not to be succumbed to or used as an excuse for a chronic lack of self esteem - the latter a common ghost in the machine.
Richard

 

[bracke]

If I remember correctly and I do, one of SOCRATES parting posts on the 'basement' thread was a diagram of five concentric circles each smaller than the other sitting on top of one another to form a cone.

The base ring was knowledge, the correct knowledge - a complete mind map of how everything works.

I would suggest that a the majority of readers of this thread are still at this level ( me included ) and are having great difficulty in achieving it ,not because they are stupid but because thay are confused as to where to find it. This is what the originator of this thread was looking for.

The mass of us ( yes me again ) mill around reading books, visiting various web sites and reading a variety of threads on this site, gain a little knowledge and gradually come to undersatand most of the jargon and abbreviations but are no where near achieving the knowledge required to have any confidence in pulling the trigger. For many of us it is not a confidence thing per se, it is a knowledge thing, full stop.

Untill we achieve the knowlege, and more importantly, a way of achieving it, the other four rings ( planetary pun not intended ) might as well be in outer space as far as we are concerned.

Just in case this post is mis-interpreted as a criticism of SOCRATES or anyone else let me state that it is not. More a cry from the wilderness.


Regards

bracke

 

[JumpOff]

The first step is knowing from previous observation and actual analysis of results that a particular method works a high percentage of the time.

This is where I wish I was. - not there yet.... I am still learning to wait for those "high probability" trades ... I gain a fair amount of comfort knowing that others are in the process of learning this too.

considering all traders are learning to do is put short term activity in the context of longer term activity, why dont you study where the control prices are in your longer term horizon and study how prices in the short term are attracted to those control prices or are they rejected? does looking at the short term control prices is relation to the longer term control prices help you? are those short term control prices moving towards the long term control price?

This is exactly where I am. In my mind, the hardest thing for a new trader to get a handle on is the time frame - to understand how the short term price patterns move in relationship to the long term patterns.

The market is not cruel, just indifferent. If I wait for that long term best probability trade and then flub the entry through inexperience and anticipation - and have to wait a couple of days or weeks to try again, is that better than learning from the gains and losses of a series of more moderate probabilities and targets? Lion cubs learn to hunt wildebeast by first pouncing on grasshoppers - I'd like to know if there is a way for me to do that too.(some method that puts the risk:reward:commission:spread ratios in proper relationship for a beginner. )
JO

 

[SOCRATES]

You have got it back to front. The shorter time frames are contained inside the longer time frames. The shorter time frames emanate from the longer time frames ; this is rather like those Russian Dolls made of wood and painted that you can buy which fit inside one another, smaller and smaller and smaller until you get to the smallest.

If you start with the smallest doll on its own it does not give you a clue as to what the largest (the outside doll ) might be like sizewise. However if you start with the largest doll you know that there are several contained inside one another, and that the final doll is invairiably very small in comparison.

Time frames are constructed in the same way ; hence they require the same approach.

 

[SOCRATES]

And as for you, Thirteen, first of all you would be well advised to be patient and not try to run before you can walk, and while we are at it, we would all benefit it you wash your mouth out with strong disinfectant
before you post here as all this bad language of yours is first of all an affront to members who are attentive and need to progress and in any event does not impress anyone, to the contrary. Also they do not treat serious topics under discussion as amusement like you do. And if no one else on this website will make you aware of this, I will. So you are expected to keep up with discussions in a proper manner and if you have nothing valuable to contribute you ought to remain silent ;instead of bombarding us with expletives.

 

[SOCRATES]

If I remember correctly and I do, one of SOCRATES parting posts on the 'basement' thread was a diagram of five concentric circles each smaller than the other sitting on top of one another to form a cone.

The base ring was knowledge, the correct knowledge - a complete mind map of how everything works.

I would suggest that a the majority of readers of this thread are still at this level ( me included ) and are having great difficulty in achieving it ,not because they are stupid but because thay are confused as to where to find it. This is what the originator of this thread was looking for.

The mass of us ( yes me again ) mill around reading books, visiting various web sites and reading a variety of threads on this site, gain a little knowledge and gradually come to undersatand most of the jargon and abbreviations but are no where near achieving the knowledge required to have any confidence in pulling the trigger. For many of us it is not a confidence thing per se, it is a knowledge thing, full stop.

Untill we achieve the knowlege, and more importantly, a way of achieving it, the other four rings ( planetary pun not intended ) might as well be in outer space as far as we are concerned.

Just in case this post is mis-interpreted as a criticism of SOCRATES or anyone else let me state that it is not. More a cry from the wilderness.


Regards

bracke

Yes Bracke, you are right and you are the first member to make this observation. However it is also very important, which I omitted to say, that one should explore (and there is no harm in this), provided that what is not relevant is recognised as such, and ignored from then on.

Kind Regards As Usual.

 

[ZigZag]

Bracke,
I can appreciate your frustration. We have all experienced that emotion and until you cut the "Gordian knot " by developing your own trading plan it will only deepen. In your post you said"Until we achieve the knowledge..." I suggest you change the word knowledge to method. That should be your total focus i.e. developing your own method which has a probability > 51%. (profit not win/losses)

 

[stevespray]

Thirteen…..

I would have to agree with Socrates on his point regarding your attitude. Surely the people writing and reading this thread have the right to be able to view its contents and draw their own conclusions. So far the thread has sought to openly discuss certain issues which people feel may, or may not, have a direct effect on their trading psychology. Your approach appears confrontational. I hope you don’t mind me saying that. I just feel that it is important that we don’t move too far from the subject matter which is being discussed. There is much too look at and discuss already without having to digress into the area of individuals hidden agendas and other matters pertaining to very basic group dynamics.

As it happens I am very interested in what you might have to say regarding the various cycles. I am a believer in such cycles but have yet to find a way to analyse market action in such a manner as to make any use of what I find. Can I respectfully suggest that you start a thread where we, and other interested parties, can directly discuss these issues. This way we can also keep this current thread undiluted with digressions which stray quiet a long way off the original subject areas.

Wishes,
Steve.

 

[Gardan]

Thirteen

some people learn 2 trade and be profitable within 1 year. they make v good living. they also have a life. they see trading as a job, not a dream. they drive themselves. they r their own boss. would they sackthemselves after 1 year? yet here u newbies r with 3 years & no progress. explain yourself 2 yourself!

Thirteen, I guess that the above may be directed at me since my join date is 2001? if it's not I apologise for thinking, I may believe I am more important than I am. If it was for my attention I would like to point out the post no 74(see below) Just to clarify my interest in 2001 was to seek a view on a fact pertaining to my business.
If it was directed at me I won't be annoyed as I think my posts are to boring to read also.
Kind Regards Thirteen

POST 74
FAQ: Sometimes experienced members on T2W get a bit fed up of us newbies asking the same old questions time and time again. I am probably the most annoying after looking at the posts I have posted.

Now I am a veteran member of two whole months I now realise how easy it might of been to search around the site and find the answers I was looking for NOT. Yes I am finding my way round a little better now but it would take me a year to find all the goodies. I am learning to search a little better for answers but I have to admit there is a little buzz when someone answers your question even if it's to tell you off a little," that it's been asked a million times before". I apologise for this but what's a better way?

I thought "WHAT ABOUT A FAQ" thread, brilliant, all the experienced guys/gals could just send us clowns there. I then did a search and found that this had already been suggested last year by JLs483 (obviously some one more clever than me, not hard) but for various reasons it did'nt get off the ground and some thought it might detract from the site.
I have learnt so much in the last two months from you guy's/gal's and yet I have learnt so little. If you help one newbie (me not included,but I would like to be) to be successful I hope you will continue with your unbelievable support.
If we annoy,then ignore us but don't give up on us please.
Thanks

 

[SOCRATES]

Bracke,

I can appreciate your frustration. We have all experienced that emotion and until you cut the "Gordian knot " by developing your own trading plan it will only deepen. In your post you said"Until we achieve the knowledge..." I suggest you change the word knowledge to method. That should be your total focus i.e. developing your own method which has a probability > 51%. (profit not win/losses)

Zig Zag, with respect and not wishing to imply I am contradicting for the sake of it ; but I clearly understand Bracke's dilemma. You see, in a previous thread I went to great lengths to explain the difference between a method and a system. This as well is a confusing matter that is frequently overlooked. Its importance cannot be underestimated. I am willing to expand on this ;~

First of all a system is how something is put together, like for example an airport. The functionality of this hypothetical airport is not always at the same activity level. The airport may be evacuated because of a bomb scare, or it may be closed owing to fog, or it may be hyper active with passengers on the eve of a bank holiday weekend. In other words, its condition of activity will vary. The airport, devoid of people altogether is a system, a system devoted to air travel and air transportation. If the airport is devoid of people( and this includes passengers, pilots, aircrew, groundcrew, ATC personnel, customs, security, cleaners, caterers, retailers, support staff, etc., ) the airport is still an airport but it is not functioning.
In other words it constitutes a situation which is inert, because it does not run itself on its own automatically( the time may come when this does happen, but not yet) therefore, the airport remains a system. Nothing can happen until something is made to happen.

When all these people return and the airport has passengers, pilots, aircrew, groundcrew, ATC personnel, customs, security, cleaners, caterers, retailers, support staff, etc., and all these people except for the passengers, are on duty, the airport springs to life. This happens because suddenly, it becomes as a consequence of being operated, greater than the sum of its parts, we call this a Gestalt, a German word that means just that.

In order for a system to become a Gestalt, it has to be operated. It cannot be operated randomly. It has to be operated according to a plan of operation. This plan of operation is a method.

On these boards I constantly see a system confused with a method. They are two very different things. A method cannot be employed unless there is a plan, an intent to do so.

This plan, or intent to do so requires know how. Not just anybody can step in and do every job in an active airport. Each job is different. You could say duties in the airport are divided by specialisation in order to produce the total result, the desired Gestalt.

Each of the participants has a niche, and a part to play in making the airport operative.
Each has specialised knowledge of his or her function. Before they can carry out their work individually and collectively each has to know what to do and how to do it, otherwise all would be chaos. Therefore, using an airport and the people who work in it to make it function, as a model to understand these differences, we now become aware of the difference that exists between a system, a method, and a Gestalt, all of it underpinned by knowledge.

For this reason, I can structurally demonstrate to ypu that knowledge is what underpins everything. If we transpose this idea and we replace the airport with the markets, the result is the same, only the participants have changed and their functions are different of course.

For this reason, a method cannot be substituted for knowledge. Knowledge comes first and underpins everything. Then comes the system. To this system using the correct knowledge a method is then applied. The result is a Gestalt. If the knowledge and the method are correct, the result will be a successful gestalt. If they are not the result will be an unsuccessful gestalt. The method or any method for that matter, cannot be applied effectively unless there is the correct knowledge in the first place to underpin it ; And this is what Bracke is seeking, and not substitution of one thing for another.

The tragedy is that in large measure, very few focus correctly on this point, and are in a hurry to develop a method (which they erroneously go on to call a system) without the necessary fundamental underpinning ~ this once again is potentially disastrous if not dealt with in the correct order and with the importance that it merits.

Kind Regards.

 

[kevin546]

Thirteen

I accept the message you make concerning short term, control price and value concept and how some traders make fast progress into the world of trading. What I do not accept is the inference that those taking longer than a year to find the path that leads to success should be considered in a negative light. For starters many who attempt to trade do not have the finances to support them or there families to permit them to just walk away from the day job. Therefore a number of newbies as you describe them may only be able to trade around the spare time afforded them from the day job. In such circumstances it will take them longer. But because it takes someone longer to find the path does not in itself mean they cannot or will not at some stage find that hidden path.

I can also accept that a forum, book, trading tutor does not suit everyone just as a specific trading system works very well for one person will not justify that same system working for another. If the approach applied here by Socrates does not suit your own trading peculiarities then while you can present such facts it is only fair that those who view this thread are able to make up there own mind if the posts contained within it hold an interest for them. They are free to make this choice and by the continued posts by members shows that for some this thread is of interest to them.

You have a different approach to getting a message across and if it is speedy this may accelerate the learning process for some individuals. My suggestion would be rather than to criticise would be to post concise information with relevant data or better still start your own thread where you maybe able to benefit others who can develop along your train of thought. This is not meant as a criticism of you just that to continue down the road you appear to have taken will not be of benefit to this board and your own thread will be more productive IMHO.

I also do not agree that you need to draw attention to a specific point by the use of foul language, that is just a flimsy excuse and it is unnecessary. There are obviously a number of other ways that you can achieve getting your message across.

 

[kevin546]

Socrates

A trading system does require knowledge in order to know how to correctly apply it. When considering a trading plan you must consider all aspects of how you intend to trade, what you require to make it happen, what tools you need to actually trade, how you will place a deal (I call this trading mechanics) how you will fund this venture, what is your style of trading that best suits you, what is your acceptable risk for your stop, how will you apply your stop, how will you manage your deal when it moves into profit or loss, how will you deal with a whipsaw, how will you deal with your emotions to ensure you follow your plan, what will you trade and do you need to trade different instruments with a different trading plan, what will your time frame will you trade, what charts will you use, who will you use for your broker, what is your expectation of profit, how long will you trade and when will you trade, what do you want to achieve from trading, what support do you have for this venture from your family/partner etc. are you comfortable with your trading or a bundle of nerves, what will you do if there is a system crash & or telephone goes down, how many trading account will you operate, can you hedge, will you hedge.

A rather long winded way to try and illustrate that a trading system / plan should encompass everything you may need to consider when trading. When you find yourself in a situation where you have to think on the go in life we often fall back on our training and experience. By thinking through all aspects of trading then at least you are better prepared to follow a course of action that you have considered, tested and have faith in through the development of your own trading method. This of course involves testing each component until they merge as one and it is this that takes a great deal of effort, time and perseverance before you find your way. It certainly makes for a much more relaxed trading because you have an end result, you either make profit , come away even or lose but only what you were prepared to risk in the 1st place. Trading becomes a repeat process of applying your plan through the different stages.

 

[kevin546]

Thirteen

I am not sure I follow you so it is likely that I am failing somewhere. Do you think you might expand on what you are trying to tell me. I realise many do not have the opportunity to have a 2nd income. I have only been trading part time around the day job for 4 yrs and in that time my knowledge of trading and more importantly myself when trading is preparing me for when I am able to walk away from my present employment. To do so now would be a financial mistake because I would lose out. In the meantime I have the opportunity to learn and develop. I am sure a number of other traders fit this position and why so many trade the US after working during the day, the would be brigade. Those that move forward probably become full time traders others who have the capital move straight into it and either survive or fail.

My suggestion of starting a thread of your own was because you seemed to offer a different perspective and style which could lead to arguments further along and I apologise if I have misread you completely but you appeared to me to be coming from an aggressive approach which may generate a similar approach from others with a different view. In the past when this happens any benefit that may have been obtained from the bb is lost and that is what I was trying to avoid.

Regards

Kevin

 

[barjon]

kevin

You ask an awful lot from some people. There are two sorts of people, amongst others, when it comes to learning how to perform a task efficiently. There are those who need to fully understand the complete theory of what they have to achieve and they are not comfortable to proceed until they have gone through this, often time consuming, preamble. There are others who understand the objective and basic principles who set out on the task, using practical experience as their primary learning route. This latter group, of course, lose time by their mistakes. In the end, as long as the theorists can apply what they have pre-learned and as long as the practitioners can learn from their practice and mistakes, both may well cross the finishing line together.

To some extent, the attitude of the two different groups is depicted by the comments on this thread.

regards

jon

 

[Sirlosealot]

Brackie, Socrates & Kevin546 Re: post 187 et al

All I can say is that, for me at least, these are QUALITY posts.

Others may have different views but this sub thread is discussing the exact spot in my trading journey that I am stuck at and with no real idea how to proceed. More please!!

Regards

Gerard

 

[SOCRATES]

Socrates

A trading system does require knowledge in order to know how to correctly apply it. When considering a trading plan you must consider all aspects of how you intend to trade, what you require to make it happen, what tools you need to actually trade, how you will place a deal (I call this trading mechanics) how you will fund this venture, what is your style of trading that best suits you, what is your acceptable risk for your stop, how will you apply your stop, how will you manage your deal when it moves into profit or loss, how will you deal with a whipsaw, how will you deal with your emotions to ensure you follow your plan, what will you trade and do you need to trade different instruments with a different trading plan, what will your time frame will you trade, what charts will you use, who will you use for your broker, what is your expectation of profit, how long will you trade and when will you trade, what do you want to achieve from trading, what support do you have for this venture from your family/partner etc. are you comfortable with your trading or a bundle of nerves, what will you do if there is a system crash & or telephone goes down, how many trading account will you operate, can you hedge, will you hedge.

A rather long winded way to try and illustrate that a trading system / plan should encompass everything you may need to consider when trading. When you find yourself in a situation where you have to think on the go in life we often fall back on our training and experience. By thinking through all aspects of trading then at least you are better prepared to follow a course of action that you have considered, tested and have faith in through the development of your own trading method. This of course involves testing each component until they merge as one and it is this that takes a great deal of effort, time and perseverance before you find your way. It certainly makes for a much more relaxed trading because you have an end result, you either make profit , come away even or lose but only what you were prepared to risk in the 1st place. Trading becomes a repeat process of applying your plan through the different stages.

Kevin, what you describe above is a method, not a system. You ought not to persist in mis -applying descriptions of concepts as this leads to awful muddles. These muddles occur when the mindmap is not correct. In order to attain structure this is exactly what you must not do. To do it once is an error. The error above is both an error of priciple and an error of commission. To persist in doing it leads to mindmap failure, and mindmap failure is what no one can afford.

 

[SOCRATES]

And Kevin, with regard to the above, you would benefit by reading again Post 196, in which I take pains to describe in detail the above, please.

Kind Regards.

 

[timcannell]

Kevin, what you describe above is a method, not a system. You ought not to persist in mis -applying descriptions of concepts as this leads to awful muddles. These muddles occur when the mindmap is not correct. In order to attain structure this is exactly what you must not do. To do it once is an error. The error above is both an error of priciple and an error of commission. To persist in doing it leads to mindmap failure, and mindmap failure is what no one can afford.

Awful muddle indeed - I think delivery of Kevin's post is in a very honest style. Its intended meaning is conveyed alot better than the
paragraph above - which is of no use to me at all...

 

[SOCRATES]

Well then you must teach yourself to think correctly, because, much as I would like to be able to,, I cannot think for you, and, because I cannot, I will not even try to do it for you. In this proffession you are not expected to lift bricks or do heavy manual work, but you are required to engage brain, with thought properly directed. If you cannot or will not do this you will not succeed, sorry.

 

[timcannell]

Well then you must teach yourself to think correctly, because, much as I would like to be able to,, I cannot think for you, and, because I cannot, I will not even try to do it for you. In this proffession you are not expected to lift bricks or do heavy manual work, but you are required to engage brain, with thought properly directed. If you cannot or will not do this you will not succeed, sorry.

Sorry but I haven't asked you , nor would I , to 'correct' my thinking processes