Brexit - in or out

forker said:
Get better. Show me an example where it's better. I am asking for an example where you have a fully integrated community. You can't because as much as you try sugar coat it the difference in culture is not going to go away. This illusion of it working well is unfounded. When I get on a train in London I feel like I am in a foreign country. The most noticeable element to it is the complete lack of integration. Everyone is talking different languages so there is no communication across cultures. Further to the point there are elements that just don't work at all. Have you ever sat next to a Muslim and tried talking to them. I have on several occasions and in all but one was ignored. The one that I wasn't exactly a seamless conversation and ended up feeling awkward. You living in a silo there in Brighton.
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Beg to differ old boy - http://www.visitbrighton.com/your-brighton/cultural

Canada is a super example of it working really well and most importantly the US of A! (y)

You really need to get out more. Having said that I do have empathy for your sentiments as some foreign aliens annoy the sh1t out of me. Pure numbers; benefits outweigh negatives.

Usually try to avoid sitting next to them. I have given up my seat to many a foreign body either old, with kids or too many shopping bags. Nothing personal. Just coexistence. (y)
 
Something is abundantly becoming clear here. Whilst some of you may claim to be free enterprise capitalists, you really do not like the FREE bit.

So whilst alleging the EU is a common market which we all participate in - there is desire to control who does what?


Then there are peoples personal choice of dress behaviour image and language issues. I was never really into rockers, mods, skin heads or anarchists choice of fashion but don't mind some Gothic :)


Looking at issues from an abstract perspective there is pick and choose.


As before it's not a question of where we agree approx 96% of the time and vote alongside our mutual interests, it's the 4% which goes against us we don't like and we would like to have things 100% of the time at all times and this is packaged as our rightful sovereignty.

We want it all.


http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/09/02/vinnie-jones-immigration_n_3856092.html

Agree with much of what our Vinnie Jones says here. Waddayatink?
 
The metro is one aspect of it where you can see the scale of immigration. In all areas of life however it is evident that integration isn't happening. I used to earn some extra money as a doorman on weekends. On any given night it was clear that there were specific cultures that stick to themselves. I even discovered venues had specific culture nights. Some nights were just Asian and others were just polish or Russian. There was always conflict between groups of differing ethnic backgrounds. Some cultures don't even go to social events outside their own people.

Taking this further, going to other social events. I never see groups mixing. When at various investment banks that I have worked, lunchtime I see Indians eating with their own and the same goes for other groups. This doesn't mean there is no conversations. It does show however that there is a divide regardless. You cannot have integration when people can't even mix during simple aspects of life like eating lunch or getting together socially.
I have less than a handful of friends from different ethic backgrounds and those tend to be ones where they don't partake in their ethnic culture. This speaks volumes to the challenges of integration. People can only truly integrate when they have things in common and this means losing elements of their culture. Expecting people to do that is naive. People cherish their culture and thus hang onto it. Globalisation isn't going to change that. It will likely take a dozen generations before its watered down to a point where people have that commonality. Before that day comes there is going to be a lot of clashes - much like my experience as a doorman.
I am sure other people who have diverse experience in their lives will see the same boundaries I have.
 
Atilla said:
Beg to differ old boy - http://www.visitbrighton.com/your-brighton/cultural

Canada is a super example of it working really well and most importantly the US of A! [emoji106]
You really need to get out more. Having said that I do have empathy for your sentiments as some foreign aliens annoy the sh1t out of me. Pure numbers; benefits outweigh negatives.

Usually try to avoid sitting next to them. I have given up my seat to many a foreign body either old, with kids or too many shopping bags. Nothing personal. Just coexistence. (y)
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Are you really using that as an example? You showing me culture from a British standpoint. I don't see any Polish festivals, Muslim festivals, African festivals. Festivals where different cultures mix and enjoy each others differences. All you are showing me is a page of links where people can go but likely don't mix at all. Also Brighton is nothing close to the mix of migrants with London. You have even less chance of integration than London has.
 
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The 2011 census found the ethnic composition of Brighton and Hove to be 89.08% white (80.48% white British, 1.38% white Irish, 7.21% other white), 4.13% Asian (1.10% Chinese, 1.10% Indian, 0.50% Bangladeshi, 1.43% other Asian), 3.81% mixed race (1.54% mixed black/white, 1.23% mixed white/Asian, 1.05% other mix), 1.53%
 
So you have the largest group of white people who for the most part, like other ethnic backgrounds, stick to ourselves. At least in London in specific service industries you have an even mix of different ethnic backgrounds and you are almost forced to work together. This actually raises an interesting view where this is prevalent in certain industries. In the corporate world you don't get nearly as much of a mix.
 
I can understand that there may be an argument for immigration because the country is too small to take any more, although Netherlands and Belgium are much smaller than ours.

But because no one wants to integrate? Really!. It's basic to the EU.

To be frank, I think that a lot of the problem, if not all of it, is because of the difference in colour. In that way, a person can be identified and slotted into a compartment when he is yards away, without mentioning a word. The European is different---it needs a language for him to be identified.
 
forker said:
The metro is one aspect of it where you can see the scale of immigration. In all areas of life however it is evident that integration isn't happening. I used to earn some extra money as a doorman on weekends. On any given night it was clear that there were specific cultures that stick to themselves. I even discovered venues had specific culture nights. Some nights were just Asian and others were just polish or Russian. There was always conflict between groups of differing ethnic backgrounds. Some cultures don't even go to social events outside their own people.

Taking this further, going to other social events. I never see groups mixing. When at various investment banks that I have worked, lunchtime I see Indians eating with their own and the same goes for other groups. This doesn't mean there is no conversations. It does show however that there is a divide regardless. You cannot have integration when people can't even mix during simple aspects of life like eating lunch or getting together socially.
I have less than a handful of friends from different ethic backgrounds and those tend to be ones where they don't partake in their ethnic culture. This speaks volumes to the challenges of integration. People can only truly integrate when they have things in common and this means losing elements of their culture. Expecting people to do that is naive. People cherish their culture and thus hang onto it. Globalisation isn't going to change that. It will likely take a dozen generations before its watered down to a point where people have that commonality. Before that day comes there is going to be a lot of clashes - much like my experience as a doorman.
I am sure other people who have diverse experience in their lives will see the same boundaries I have.
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What you say has much truth and I concur with your observations. Where I differ is that when you suggest it will polarize rather than harmonise. As I mentioned before I agree these communities are very racists in their own views. This I believe is because they are stupid and feel vulnerable and fearful of being outside their own country of origin and like a wounded animal go back into their traditions which they know and understand on how to behave. In fact they try and hold onto it even harder than otherwise by exemplifying their traditions. They are weak and not quite aware of how human social interactions operate. To the point of being stupid minded and prejudiced to other tradition and cultures. This is that old gene where a humanoid will beat the crap out of anything remotely different to it, as a way of ensuring the survival of it's self and look alikes.

Their off-spring however, will change and be braver than their old folk to emerge with true identities of their own without the luggage of their parents into a brave new world. A much better world too.

It's taken US a good two hundred years to get to this point and there are still cutlural divides. On the other hand they elected Obama. What does that tell you? London has elected Khan what does that tell you. Before you say it's all the foreigners in London - that would not be true. Without the white British vote there is no way he could have got in. Zac failing speaks volumes.

Are you not in denial here?
 
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Not denial, my experience across social elements and work doesn't show integration is working. Although the US has a history of immigration. It has a very different profile than we do. It's land mass is the first point I shall make where immigration can be absorbed across a much wider area. The immigration has also been controlled for some time whereas we have no hope in hell of controlling free movement of people with a pool of 500+ million. So I think the US is a different beast and cannot be compared to Europe. I do agree with it taking them many generations before you have visible integration albeit different in many ways.
 
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Splitlink said:
I can understand that there may be an argument for immigration because the country is too small to take any more, although Netherlands and Belgium are much smaller than ours.

But because no one wants to integrate? Really!. It's basic to the EU.

To be frank, I think that a lot of the problem, if not all of it, is because of the difference in colour. In that way, a person can be identified and slotted into a compartment when he is yards away, without mentioning a word. The European is different---it needs a language for him to be identified.
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I thought Monti proposing the adoption of English as the EU language was a fantastic idea (in Bloomberg video posted below).

(y)
 
forker said:
Not denial, my experience across social elements and work doesn't show integration is working. Although the US has a history of immigration. It has a very different profile than we do. It's land mass is the first point I shall make where immigration can be absorbed across a much wider area. The immigration has also been controlled for some time whereas we have no hope in hell of controlling free movement of people with a pool of 500+ million. The US also doesn't have a Labour force that's being undercut by immigration like we do. So I think the US is a different beast and cannot be compared to Europe. I do agree with it taking them many generations before you have visible integration albeit different in many ways.
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One KPI may be mixed marriages as an indicator.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...xed-number-diverse-families-soars-decade.html

:idea:
 
That is an interesting KPI. It should however differentiate from those marrying for access to the UK and those that have a genuine relationship. Unfortunately there is no way to differentiate so a pinch of salt is perhaps warranted.
 
Perhaps off topic but
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...s-over-shooting-dead-of-gorilla-a7055796.html

This story is a good one to reflect on.

The gorilla could have easily killed the boy in the first 10 minutes but it did not do!

Have no idea why authorities thought it may change it's mind. Gorilla knows it's own strength and can see the infant human.

It is the fear of man about the unknown gorilla that causes him to not take a chance and kill the gorilla. I'd more than have a bet, the authorities considered they may face charges of not acting or being sued by the boys parents.

One could say the gorilla saved the boy who fell into the water by dragging it into shallow area.

The stupid humans will not have helped the situation with screens and excited chatter. Not exactly calming the situation.


fwiw imo, I think the animal should have been given more time to calm down and coaxed with treats rather than shot. I would only give the instruction shoot to kill if the boy's life was in 'immediate" danger. 10 minutes is a long time. Not exactly immediate is it?


Give it a little time and they could have been friends and the boy could have been in the next block buster Tarzan movie who knows?


Have cheerful hope, love in ones heart and spring in thy balls.

Errmmm that's spring in thy balls of ye feet. ;)
 
forker said:
That is an interesting KPI. It should however differentiate from those marrying for access to the UK and those that have a genuine relationship. Unfortunately there is no way to differentiate so a pinch of salt is perhaps warranted.
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I agree and we should include divorce as another KPI to balance it, comparing stats between similar and mixed marriages.

But then there are all those marriages in these so called super culturally bound sects be it Indian, Muslim or Jew where strong social pressures mean people live miserable lives being abused by dominant bitching mother-in-law, father-in-law and the rest of the freaking tribes-in-law.

Those numbers will become 10% - 15% - 30% and then there will come a tipping point when it will luvy duvy all over the place.


Vinnie Jones's honesty is wonderful. What he says is true I reckon and agree and relate to it.

Once people discover freedoms and have access to those freedoms they can go and travel and locate anywhere they want to live. He has made a new home in the US of A. Fancy living next to Torantino (y) Good on him.

:)
 
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