BNP the BBC and the UK!!! What is going on here???

[Trader333]

I would argue the reverse. If you look at the very successful continents America and Europe - the reason for their success before & after the wars was - is precisely because they are united people from very diverse cultures, religions and backgrounds.

How does that explain the huge success of Japan which is arguably the most successful post war nation on Earth and almost the entire opposite of the above ?


Paul

 

[chilltrader]

How does that explain the huge success of Japan which is arguably the most successful post war nation on Earth and almost the entire opposite of the above ?


Paul

1. Japanese have not had any major success during the imperial era - hence no
understanding of other cultures except probably the immediate Asian
countries. The British on the other hand have had positive (and some negative
interaction with most of the cultures/nations in the world and as such have a much
better global understanding.

2. Japan is a very "closed society" with very little expatriates. In the global world it
works both ways. You have expatriates and you get immigrants.

3. If having a 12hr per day "work culture" due to "my boss is still in the office, I
better stay" mentality (which in fact lowers productivity), is a success - wish that
never happens in the UK!

4. Last but not the least - Nearly everyone in Japan knows about the English Premier
League which in itself is rich due to skilled immigrants! How many people know
about any Japanese football leagues or names of their players?

The world is changing and global leaders will be the societies who have global participation.

In my view, Japan is a loser.

 

[Atilla]

How does that explain the huge success of Japan which is arguably the most successful post war nation on Earth and almost the entire opposite of the above ?


Paul

Their culture is one very strong hierarchial structure based on obsessive hard work.

Their quality of life is debatable. Who would prefer to work 16 hours a day as opposed to take holidays is beyond me.


I would ask why don't people flock to live there? Is it a desirable place to live? I don't know I have never been there but from what I have read and seen I would like to visit but not necessarily live there.

I think Sweden, Finland, Norway and Denmark are fantastic countries too. More successful than Japan imo. However, I wouldn't like to live there either. I much prefer to live in Spain, Italy or France or the US than in Japan.

Another factor was the 2nd World War. Germany and Japan had lots of money pumped in as well as prevented from spending any money on weapons.

Finally, before they lost the war they had their Emperor who was claimed to be God. So losing the ware to the Americans was a culture shock. Until then they were supremicst in their opinions of them selves and did submit the Chinese to much suffering. I don't believe they have the same view of supremacy now.

Horses for courses. Depends how you view success. I don't believe Japan's country profile negates what I have said.

They also have significant social issues, but I won't go there. I would argue socially they would benefit from opening out and merging with the greater globe. They need to get out and chill more than they do.

 

[Paul71]

Here is the reality of Labours socialist Britain, 30k a year equivilant in benefits for scroungers and layabouts. But it's not just the scroungers creaming the system, we've got dentists, opticians etc etc all on the gravy train at the expense of the tax payer.

"I want to trade for a living"- Don't bother, get on the UK gravy train, it's a lot more lucrative.

 

[N Rothschild]

How does that explain the huge success of Japan which is arguably the most successful post war nation on Earth and almost the entire opposite of the above ?


Paul

minus two citys

arguably? would love to hear this argument. America IS the most successful country on earth. even now.

 

[spreader_legger]

Maybe not Japan but perhaps China?

I am not sure how open the Han majority will be to multiculturalism. Certainly the politicians will try to preserve the status quo. Incidentally I also heard that there has been an increased swell in nationalism over there in recent years.

Equating cosmopolitanism to future prosperity in my opinion is bunk. From a moral Christian standpoint it may be morally preferable, but morals don't always equate to prosperity.

 

[Atilla]

I like the picture that you paint. My daughter has just come back from New York and she commented on how kind everyone is to one another. Perhaps that is a tourist's view, but she said that she was impressed by the way that, no matter how busy they are, they seem to find time to help and said that of all the capitals that she has visited, London and New York are the greatest. Maybe, her command of both English and Spanish has a lot to do with it.

Nevertheless, opposition to this kind of change is healthy because, without it, the prosperous nations would be flooded. The change must have its brakes applied. BNP's policies are distasteful and unacceptable but it is the way that these changes are controlled, in the same way that it has taken so long for the US to have a black president.

The UK is set to have 70 million within 25 years. Can the social services deal with that? The taxpayer will have to pay. Brown is a convenient whipping boy, currently, but it doesn't matter who is going to be in charge, the problems will, still, be there.

Yes, migration needs to be controlled and I think this is the positive to come out of all this which main stream parties should address but BNP is a big negative on the national interests of the UK.

Re: popullation size, growth is an advantage not a disadvantage. (Global popullation growth may be a disadvantage based on current life styles). 70-120m is not a big number. Bigger market to benefit from economies of scale and activity.

Once again taking BNP arguement to extreme indigineous popullation would become extinct. I strongly believe their arguements and policies are not thought out and detrimental to national interest. The country with implode under aging popullation, pension crises and tax burden.


As we speak on unity of diverse cultures and people check out this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/8323742.stm

Asian unity block. They will blend and they will remove borders and they will harmonise their tax and travel policies. English may even become their key language.

The whole globe village is moving to one of unity and the BNP want to take us back to the dark ages.

 

[Trader333]

Again I have been taken out of context here. The view I was replying to was that success is all down to having a multi-cultural society and Japan flies in the face of that. I was also specifically talking about post war and Japan grew out of nothing faster and more successfully than any other nation. This is quite remarkable when you consider that they have no natural resources and have to import everything and yet still managed to achieve economically something no other nation has done.

The 12 hour days scenario is identical to that of the US (argued by all here to be the most successful nation). The US is clearly still the most successful nation in terms of absolute economic measures but in terms of growth since the war Japan has been staggeringly successful

I was also not referring to Football or the other aspects of what may or may not make a nation although we seem to marvel at the Japanese martial arts, their cars, stereos, videos, cameras etc and they also now own a large section of US based media.

To state that Japan is a loser is not what I would say.


Paul

 

[spreader_legger]

Yes, migration needs to be controlled and I think this is the positive to come out of all this which main stream parties should address but BNP is a big negative on the national interests of the UK.

Re: popullation size, growth is an advantage not a disadvantage. (Global popullation growth may be a disadvantage based on current life styles). 70-120m is not a big number. Bigger market to benefit from economies of scale and activity.

Once again taking BNP arguement to extreme indigineous popullation would become extinct. I strongly believe their arguements and policies are not thought out and detrimental to national interest. The country with implode under aging popullation, pension crises and tax burden.


As we speak on unity of diverse cultures and people check out this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/8323742.stm

Asian unity block. They will blend and they will remove borders and they will harmonise their tax and travel policies. English may even become their key language.

The whole globe village is moving to one of unity and the BNP want to take us back to the dark ages.

Yeah Britain needs immigration. But your vision of one big global village is a bit idealistic n'est ce pas? with genocides happening around the world on a constant basis i.e. Dafur, Ex yogoslavia etc. And I do not see these things ending anytime soon. Unfortunately history has a tendancy of repeating itself.

I am very sceptical of new paradigm shifts ... human nature unfortunately has not changed that much since the times of Cain and Able ... with all the best of intentions, associations such as the EU or ASEAN are susceptible to rifts, changes and ultimate disbandendments.

Atilla I'm jealous of your optimism

 

[counter_violent]

Atilla, you have some seriously worrying views and to me they come across as extremist in much the same way that you argue that the BNP is extreme.

 

[chilltrader]

If BNP is not extreme then neither is Osama! - and nor those mullahs in Finsbury park which spew hatred in the name of religion. Let them be also invited on QT.

In fact while we are at it, even paedophiles and serial killers have an opinion and a right to free speech. Lets hear them out on QT.

 

[Atilla]

Again I have been taken out of context here. The view I was replying to was that success is all down to having a multi-cultural society and Japan flies in the face of that. I was also specifically talking about post war and Japan grew out of nothing faster and more successfully than any other nation. This is quite remarkable when you consider that they have no natural resources and have to import everything and yet still managed to achieve economically something no other nation has done.

The 12 hour days scenario is identical to that of the US (argued by all here to be the most successful nation). The US is clearly still the most successful nation in terms of absolute economic measures but in terms of growth since the war Japan has been staggeringly successful

I was also not referring to Football or the other aspects of what may or may not make a nation although we seem to marvel at the Japanese martial arts, their cars, stereos, videos, cameras etc and they also now own a large section of US based media.

To state that Japan is a loser is not what I would say.


Paul

I hear what you are saying Paul, but if you look at the successful nations and continents with common factors what does one see? There are always likely to be exceptional cases with unique factors.

Japan has its unique work culture indeed but it stops there.

As for their success - they are essentially producers by sheer hard work. I don't think anything has originated from Japan. They copy ideas and then better it. Take it to the next level. Their national pshycie gives them this unique manufacturing production advantage.

I have been making a similar point that there are pockets of long term unemployed in the UK which is not-employable rather than unemployed. Even in the good times. However, when I make this point people become defensive and BNP wins because these are precisely the people who they represent imo. Which at a higher level translates to controlling migration.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/8319515.stm


At another level Japanese car plants have opened in the Midlands and the Japanese managment have found British workers equally good and hard working by induction training them into the Japanese way of working. The ex-Leyland workers have embraced this new management style and taken to it like ducks to water.

British class infested management system with their daft fat cat payments and elitist policies haven't managed the workers or engaged the unions.

In all these discussions the migrant labour which most people equate the BNP with has nothing to do with our problems issues or reason for the failure of British manufacturing. Mrs T., kicked the unions into touch but also threw the baby (manufacturing) out with the bath water - even though this may have been in the making for the last 100 years with rising competition.


Coming back to your point - are you suggesting if we take the Japanese model to its nth degree we can emulate the manufacturing poweress thus rectifying our problems?

Alternatively, how would one explain the success of the American and European models in the league of nations as it currently stands if the Japanese profile is to have greater weight as a factor in our views?

 

[Paul71]

Britain doesn't need a model anymore, not for itself anyway, it's part of federal europe wether people like it or not. One type of model used years ago was the 'sugar triangle', this involved slavery, we got rid of that...ashame really.

 

[Atilla]

Atilla, you have some seriously worrying views and to me they come across as extremist in much the same way that you argue that the BNP is extreme.

I'm quite stunned by this remark CV. :-0

As a respected person your remarks hurt even more...

Not sure what else to say. I am getting tired of making the points and ready to give up the ghost and watch it unravel...

To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;


I think I'll sleep on it...

 

[poborsky]

"O, but man, proud man, Drest in a little brief authority. Most ingorant of what he's most assur'd, his glassy essence,like an angry ape, plays such fantastic tricks before high heaven, as make the angels weep"

 

[counter_violent]

The thing is this...if people can see the sense in someones arguments then they may be persuaded to adopt a similar position and maybe even spread the word and so on.

The issue with immigration is quite different...peoples perception of what is going on is that of force. In this country we are being forced to accept that this policy is a good thing...we are not being persuaded...do you see the difference. I would go further as I believe we are all being forced to accept a lot of things that we don't agree with.

So when you force people, then do not be surprised to see resistance.

 

[spreader_legger]

Britain doesn't need a model anymore, not for itself anyway, it's part of federal europe wether people like it or not. One type of model used years ago was the 'sugar triangle', this involved slavery, we got rid of that...ashame really.

sugar triangle? never heard of that one. Don't you mean cotton?

 

[chilltrader]

The thing is this...if people can see the sense in someones arguments then they may be persuaded to adopt a similar position and maybe even spread the word and so on.

The issue with immigration is quite different...peoples perception of what is going on is that of force. In this country we are being forced to accept that this policy is a good thing...we are not being persuaded...do you see the difference. I would go further as I believe we are all being forced to accept a lot of things that we don't agree with.

So when you force people, then do not be surprised to see resistance.

Yes... but BNP is not only about immigration. Its clearly a racist party and its agenda is clearly on its website. You don't need a racist party to debate about immigration. The mainstream parties are already debating it - without having racist undertones.

Do you see the difference?

 

[Paul71]

The thing is this...if people can see the sense in someones arguments then they may be persuaded to adopt a similar position and maybe even spread the word and so on.

The issue with immigration is quite different...peoples perception of what is going on is that of force. In this country we are being forced to accept that this policy is a good thing...we are not being persuaded...do you see the difference. I would go further as I believe we are all being forced to accept a lot of things that we don't agree with.

So when you force people, then do not be surprised to see resistance.

I agree with your comment. The BNP have two seats in Europe, that's reality, not a personal opinion. Maybe this would not be a reality if the word 'racist' was not used to bully, brainwash, manipulate, smear and scare people?

The left wing are just as facist and extreme as the right wing when it suits.

 

[Paul71]

sugar triangle? never heard of that one. Don't you mean cotton?

Both, now you mention it. Cotton, another viable model which involved slavery.