Beginner looking for answers please!

My first ever post although have been a 'reader' of this forum for many years... :)

account with £20,000 how is a trade of approx £400 expected to return a profit?

Firstly, I think there may be some misunderstanding regarding how you are calculating risk. If you decide to risk 2% of your £20k, then this is the maximum amount you are prepared to lose, not the amount of your investment. Thus you might decide to buy £2000 worth of shares but set your stop at the point where if you are down by £400 you sell and take the hit. I get the impression from your posts that you thought people were suggesting you only buy £400 worth of shares...

Anyway, onto the main reason for my post. I have always had an interest in the stock market and worked in corporate finance for various banks for over 15 years. When I left the world of banking, I set up my own business which I have run very successfully for another 12 years. My business was taking less and less time to manage and therefore, about 2 years ago, I decided to look at trading on a semi full time basis. I figured that with my previous work experience it would be a piece of cake to master - how hard can it be?!

I did a similar thing to what you are planning and put £20k into a trading account and then spent every waking moment reading and studying whatever I could lay my hands on. I managed to trade my account down to £16k by making all of the mistakes that every beginner makes and it took me 18 months to go from £20k to £16k back to £20k. In other words, 18 months and thousands of study hours to break even.

In the last six months, I have become far more disciplined and I am working to a plan rather than 'guessing' and I am now trading profitably. I use a mix of fundamental and technical analysis. Fundamental to make sure it is a company I want to invest in and technical to identify entry/exit points. I think it will be at least another 12-24 months before I am confident enough to say that trading is 'what I do for a living'. For a start, as other posters have said, £20k is not a big enough pot to earn a living from. I do have other funds available to trade but why risk it until I am 100% confident of my ability? If I can't grow a £20k pot, I won't be able to grow a £100k one and will just end up losing more.

It is very, very, very hard to learn to trade successfully and consistently. This is especially the case if you have no relevant experience or knowledge of how to value a business or how markets work etc. Personally I wouldn't recommend any beginner starting with day-trading or with forex but that's just my opinion, others may disagree. It is easier to learn to take swing trades or longer term trades but unfortunately it is the 'lack of action' which appears to turn people off from this type of trading (initially at least).

In terms of money management, I would never invest more than 10% of my capital in one company and then risk no more than 10% of that investment as my potential loss. In other words, a £2k investment would have a stop placed at the point where I was about to lose £200 (1% of my total capital). I usually close trades before they get to this point though in order to keep losses to a minimum.

My advice, based on being a year or two up the road from where you are now, would be to read and absorb as much information as you can from places like this forum, books and other relevant websites. Spend hours and hours watching the market and noting how price moves and get to really 'know' some of the shares you want to trade in. It seems to be psychologically easier to trade actual shares rather than spread-betting etc so stick with this initially, as indeed, you intend to.

Finally, expect it to take at least two or three years to get to a stage of proficiency. If you get there sooner, so much the better. If you break even in year one, you are probably ahead of most other people!

Very best of luck!
 
Forgot to say, I use Sharescope Plus for charting etc. Prices are 15 mins delayed but I also pay £16 a month for Level 2 which is obviously live. For longer term trades, I personally don't think live pricing is vital and I question whether I really benefit from the Level 2 but it's one of those things, once you've got it, you don't like to give it up :)
 
Thanks for your reply Simon.

I am trying to learn/research/soak up as much info as possible at this time and understand the importance of money management. Reading to risk from 1-5% of capital per trade (5% to make a meaningful amount per trade as £20,000 is a small trading account). Clearly apologies for my inexperience showing but the share price would need to rise significantly if trading on 2% of capital per trade, to just break even? Only I can decide the "right" amount to risk per trade and I will work on a trading plan that suits my attitude to risk and aims. Still working on how you even identify setups to begin with however understand that I am at the very beginning of a long term learning curve.

To explain the full picture I will have approx £62,000 in total, of which I will allocate £20,000 to £30,000 in a trading account. There may also be another source of income but not confirmed that yet.

Try to think about it this way.

If you risk 5% per trade, and you experience 4 consecutive losing trades, you just lost 20% of your capital. You then need to make 25% back to break even. The larger your risk per trade, the bigger this problem becomes.

Think about what happens when you experience 10 consecutive losing trades at 5% per trade (which is highly likely) At that point you need to make 100% return to break even.

You make money not from one trade, but from multiple trades over the year, don't get too hung up about whats happening on a single trade. The reality may well be the majority of profits over a year come from a very small number of trades where you where able to capitalize on events.

At this stage you need to be thinking about how to minimize losses as it may well be several years before you are in a position to make money, you need to be thinking how you'll survive the learning curve.

I suppose you could become a trading vendor until you have it sorted :)
 
Timsk,

May I ask a simple question? In 2012 did you make more money trading than you would if you had taken a job in McDonalds? I ask because you seem to be giving people hope that if they read a few articles they'll be well in their way to success. Given that you are posting this sort of stuff I thought it only fair that you should state the extent of your own success.

Of course if you've made so much that your worried about the tax man getting you then I'll understand. Perhaps you can update us at a later date from Monaco when you are beyond the reach of HMRC.
Hi PB,
I help and support members rather than 'give hope' as you put it - for two reasons:
A) That's the general idea of the site, lol!
B) It's part of my job.

The implication of your post is that I give false hope. I deny that in the strongest terms possible. I've never said - or even suggested - that all newbies need do is read a few FAQs, Stickies or Articles and then they'll be well on their way to untold riches. If you read them, you'll see that I go to great lengths (IMO) to point out the realities of trading and that, contrary to the impression given by many other trading related sites, it's not a get rich quick scheme. Obviously, there's balance to be drawn between presenting it as it is and the 'doom 'n gloom' scenario that you like to preach. It would be quite wrong of me to tell someone I don't know from Adam that they're highly unlikely to make a cent from trading and will probably lose more money than they make. I don't think you should either - but that's just my personal view.
;)
Tim.
 
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Obviously, there's balance to be drawn between presenting it as it is and the 'doom 'n gloom' scenario that you like to preach.
Tim.

Where do I start ?

Presenting it "as it is" is a good a place as any I guess. How exactly do you know "how it is" ?

Well anecdotal evidence suggests 95% fail.

Data released from forex brokers combined with simple logic and high school probability supports that conclusion.

Research by no less than the author of the t2w book indicates the failure rate is far higher than 95%

If you have time to spare you could analyse the trading results hosted by dozens of audit sites such as collective 2, myfxbook etc.

As a member of staff of a business who owns its own platform, perhaps you could take a detailed look at the performance of traders using the forex desk application. There's no excuse not to, the data is available.

Somehow, I don't think you want to look too closely at reality.

It's far from a doom and gloom scenario, but the reality is, most lose.
 
Again the simple analogy of comparing achieving success in Trading to achieving sucess in Elitist professions, Professional sports and vocations is a good one

no one believes an advert telling you you can be a Qualified Brain surgeon after a 2 day course !

But Trading Academies ?..............

hmmmmmmmmm
N
 
As said before, going the private trader route; you'll need 3/4 years live experience at a minimum, you'll also probably have to blow up several small accounts and 1 medium to larger sized account, make daily sacrifices in your private and current career life, and preferably get some pointers off someone who's already achieved what you want to achieve. This is all while making no money to speak of from trading. Get through that without giving up, and you've probably got a good chance of succeeding.

absolutely spot on, it all depends on the individual. It's a process of constant learning. Aside from a few stock trades I made back in 2000 I have been trading for 4 years now (part time), took me 3 years to start seeing results.

it depends on the individual as you need to know your weaknesses and work out how to fix them (or if they can be fixed), even then new weaknesses can always come after you just when you had banished the old ones. Being honest about your weaknesses is like base1, finding out what your weaknesses are in base2, it's a never ending changing game though. All the guys I know who are profitable have 5 years+ experience some 10%+

the only way I reckon you could cut the time down is by being immersed into a profitable trading environment, the trouble is there are not too many of these around. Prop firms are a good start but many use the churn and burn model or primarily earn from RT's and desk fees.
 
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It would be quite wrong of me to tell someone I don't know from Adam that they're highly unlikely to make a cent from trading and will probably lose more money than they make. I don't think you should either - but that's just my personal view.
;)
Tim.

But isn't that the reality for the vast, vast majority of people? So if you don't tell them that then it is sort of giving them false hope. Of course I understand that nobody in the industry wants that message being put out.
 
Good grief. I know I'm new around here, but it seems a shame to pot shot a member of staff here simply because their view of trading is not, in the opinion of some readers, negative enough. I find it bizarre to find members of a trading forum perpetuating such a cynical, jaded view, to be honest. If traders are successful then surely they would be positive about it as a career, and if they are not profitable then surely after a certain period of time spent trying it is time to call time on it? It is a sad fact of life that we are not all of us cut out to succeed at everything. But it seems a shame that experienced members are pouring cold water both on the optimism of a newer joiner and on the positive elements of a post by someone trying to offer constructive advice.

Having had a quick look around this place I guess I might get flamed for this, but seriously - comparing trading to brain surgery is hardly like for like, trading is just not that difficult. It is hard, but it is not difficult. A percentage will make it work, a percentage won't, but a default position of negativity is surely not going to help anyone?

I know, I know, we each have our own view - but at least I'd like to strike a counterpoint tone to the 'don't give them false hope' brigade and say that retail trading absolutely can work, it can be enormously open-ended and profitable, and it does not need any prior experience. It just won't work for everyone.

ST
 
Good grief. I know I'm new around here, but it seems a shame to pot shot a member of staff here simply because their view of trading is not, in the opinion of some readers, negative enough. I find it bizarre to find members of a trading forum perpetuating such a cynical, jaded view, to be honest. If traders are successful then surely they would be positive about it as a career, and if they are not profitable then surely after a certain period of time spent trying it is time to call time on it? It is a sad fact of life that we are not all of us cut out to succeed at everything. But it seems a shame that experienced members are pouring cold water both on the optimism of a newer joiner and on the positive elements of a post by someone trying to offer constructive advice.

Having had a quick look around this place I guess I might get flamed for this, but seriously - comparing trading to brain surgery is hardly like for like, trading is just not that difficult. It is hard, but it is not difficult. A percentage will make it work, a percentage won't, but a default position of negativity is surely not going to help anyone?

I know, I know, we each have our own view - but at least I'd like to strike a counterpoint tone to the 'don't give them false hope' brigade and say that retail trading absolutely can work, it can be enormously open-ended and profitable, and it does not need any prior experience. It just won't work for everyone.

ST

So basically its either:

You can practice trading seriously for a year or two, and get no results or start to see nice, progressive steps. It depends on who you are since in almost everything people strive to do, some fail and some don't.

Or

If you trade properly, with risk/money management, great trading Physcology, and sound setups, all should be successful in FX trading.
 
If you trade properly, with risk/money management, great trading Physcology, and sound setups, all should be successful in FX trading.

What about the the guy on the other side of your trade ? He's some kind of an idiot, and he's controlled by candlesticks and moving averages ?
 
So basically its either:

You can practice trading seriously for a year or two, and get no results or start to see nice, progressive steps. It depends on who you are since in almost everything people strive to do, some fail and some don't.

Or

If you trade properly, with risk/money management, great trading Physcology, and sound setups, all should be successful in FX trading.

What he is saying is this:

Writing a book,song or poetry or painting a nice picture isn't that difficult, it's hard, but it is not difficult. A percentage will make it work, a percentage won't, but a default position of negativity is surely not going to help anyone?

I know, I know, we each have our own view - but at least I'd like to strike a counterpoint tone to the 'don't give them false hope' brigade and say that retail writing and painting absolutely can work, it can be enormously open-ended and profitable, and it does not need any prior experience. It just won't work for everyone.

Good luck.
 
What about the the guy on the other side of your trade ? He's some kind of an idiot, and he's controlled by candlesticks and moving averages ?

You and him have the same odds , one of you will fail to make money or even lose.The difference between the two of you is mindset and psychology.It is the matter between both ears that makes the difference.
 
Hi to all and a Happy New Year. I am researching to become a full time trader of UK Stocks with £20,000. Initially trying to decide whether to start as a day or swing trader.

I hope that you will be able to help answer my questions.

1) How do you decide the amount of each trade from the initial £20,000?

2) How do you choose where to set the stop loss on a trade?

3) What would be the best charting and live feed software to use?


Thank you for any responses as all are much appreciated.

You should reconsider trading UK stocks. They have aweful liquidity and are expensive to trade. (Both relatively speaking). It'll kill any edge you may develop.
 
So basically its either:

You can practice trading seriously for a year or two, and get no results or start to see nice, progressive steps. It depends on who you are since in almost everything people strive to do, some fail and some don't.

Or

If you trade properly, with risk/money management, great trading Physcology, and sound setups, all should be successful in FX trading.

Getting to the end of the journey is the hard part.In theory very rosy and very easy.
 
You and him have the same odds , one of you will fail to make money or even lose.The difference between the two of you is mindset and psychology.It is the matter between both ears that makes the difference.

Something tells me you are going to open a psychology shop at some point. But I am born with a winner mindset. So I wouldn't make a customer. All the loosers - as much as 95% of the retail gambler joes - are already sold on the idea. They'd grasp at straws or anything else. Easy money though.
 
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Where do I start ?

Presenting it "as it is" is a good a place as any I guess. How exactly do you know "how it is" ?

Well anecdotal evidence suggests 95% fail.

Data released from forex brokers combined with simple logic and high school probability supports that conclusion.

Research by no less than the author of the t2w book indicates the failure rate is far higher than 95%

If you have time to spare you could analyse the trading results hosted by dozens of audit sites such as collective 2, myfxbook etc.

As a member of staff of a business who owns its own platform, perhaps you could take a detailed look at the performance of traders using the forex desk application. There's no excuse not to, the data is available.

Somehow, I don't think you want to look too closely at reality.

It's far from a doom and gloom scenario, but the reality is, most lose.

Why does the OP need to take advice , on what to do , from those who have not succeeded and those who do not really know how to succeed?He might as well dive in the shark tanks for free kisses.

It is like going to school to learn from students and dropouts.
 
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