Asian Coronavirus Outbreak

[barjon]

Additionally Jon, as has been said before by a number of us here, there's a world of difference between those who die with the virus and those who die from the virus. As the video below from yesterday by U.K. Column News shows, the Office for National Statistics (ONS) openly acknowledge that anyone who dies that's contracted the virus will have that written on their death certificate. When my father died of cancer in 1994, his entire body was riddled with the disease. It was in his abdomen, lungs and head - everywhere. The oncologist looking after him showed my mother an x-ray of his lungs and his comment was along the lines of: "this looks like he's been peppered with both barrels of a shot gun". And yet, when he died, listed under cause of death on his death certificate is: 'carcinoma of the left leg'. And that's particularly pertinent to the story because dad's left leg was amputated some eight years earlier!
Tim.

I appreciate the distinction, Tim, albeit that no-one can ever know the degree that the virus contributed to the death of those with it unless it’s entirely unrelated like a car accident. You will know from the article https://amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/608338/ that when the immune system is busy fighting off the virus it weakens and leaves you more open to other things.

What I find difficult to credit is the number of people on here determined to deny what is happening. This thing has hurtled around the world at breakneck speed from a single source Can anyone seriously believe it’s not a killer? Can anyone seriously believe that responsible governments have nuked their economies for no good reason? Can anyone seriously believe that hospitals in the hot spots are not overwhelmed? Can anyone seriously believe this is all some kind of hoax or media induced drama.

 

[cantagril]

I appreciate the distinction, Tim, albeit that no-one can ever know the degree that the virus contributed to the death of those with it unless it’s entirely unrelated like a car accident. You will know from the article https://amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/608338/ that when the immune system is busy fighting off the virus it weakens and leaves you more open to other things.

What I find difficult to credit is the number of people on here determined to deny what is happening. This thing has hurtled around the world at breakneck speed from a single source Can anyone seriously believe it’s not a killer? Can anyone seriously believe that responsible governments have nuked their economies for no good reason? Can anyone seriously believe that hospitals in the hot spots are not overwhelmed? Can anyone seriously believe this is all some kind of hoax or media induced drama.

I"m sort of in between "The Hoax" and "The End is Upon Us" theses in that whilst I'm pretty certain that there are several versions of several truths swilling about (some of which contain only a very small element of reality) I also think that the stats still light the way.

Postie has been kind enough to focus his ginormous intellect on the numbers game and imho he's been just about dead on. I think where this approach comes apart is when you don't join up the dots. As you've pointed out, virus stuff has happened, is happening and will continue to happen for a while. If one leaves out whether it's hundreds or thousands of new cases/fatalities, there is no doubt that some people are getting it. My position in all of this is very simple: I don't care what the precise numbers are - I'm aware there's "a" risk.

Until I am satisfied that this risk has become so low that-
a) My chances of winning the Great Cull Lottery equal that Other One's, or...
... b) It is a matter of common knowledge that the number of new cases is now so low that the NHS is not overwhelmed and therefore I might actually survive it with existing treatment....

...then I'm going to stay in and avoid the coughing and spraying citizens who are more sceptical and a fuck of a sight braver than I.

Whatever your stances may be, I wish you all health, wealth.... and a long and happy life.

 

[MasterOfCoin]

.........

What I find difficult to credit is the number of people on here determined to deny what is happening.
... No one is denying that the lunatics are running the Asylum.

This thing has hurtled around the world at breakneck speed from a single source
.. indeed, thanks to the jet engine and supersonic travel.

Can anyone seriously believe it’s not a killer?
.. It's a Coronavirus, of course it's a killer !

Can anyone seriously believe that responsible governments have nuked their economies for no good reason?
.. YES. Absolutely.
Which is not the same as saying that they don't believe their reasons are good.

Can anyone seriously believe that hospitals in the hot spots are not overwhelmed?
.. Of course facilities at hotspots will be overwhelmed for a spell at peak of new cases.

Can anyone seriously believe this is all some kind of hoax or media induced drama.
.. Not a hoax at all, just an overblown, overp-hyped, over-reaction.

Added comments in italics.

It's not that there isn't an epidemic, it's that far greater epidemics have generated far lesser responses.
And that the current responses are probably going to kill significantly more people than the virus ever could.

But heck, any logic and rational analysis were the first things to die off.

😷

 

[barjon]

Added comments in italics.

It's not that there isn't an epidemic, it's that far greater epidemics have generated far lesser responses.
And that the current responses are probably going to kill significantly more people than the virus ever could.

But heck, any logic and rational analysis were the first things to die off.

😷

well, it’s certainly not logical or rational to believe that intelligent and responsible governments around the world have suddenly gone mad.

 

[MasterOfCoin]

well, it’s certainly not logical or rational to believe that intelligent and responsible governments around the world have suddenly gone mad.

Perhaps not.

But all the evidence so far indicates that they have done just that.

 

[Atilla]

well, it’s certainly not logical or rational to believe that intelligent and responsible governments around the world have suddenly gone mad.

Don't you find that the story line has changed considerably?

It's turned from the regular Crona to not the flu but some new unknown virus Covid-19


They've done much worse imo.

Think how many poor women and mid-wives or the equivalent of what we might call health care practitioners labelled witches who were burned to death because the Catholic church said so. Kings soldiers were put to task to hunt witches down.

Get enough fruit cakes and mob mentality is not difficult to fuel and set off like a firework creating much noise and spectacular light show with little effort. Look at Trump calling it the Chinese disease and yanks believing him.

It's been happening since the beginning of time. ie Sacrifice of the strongest and most beautiful to the sun god. People believe whoever they think are their leader decorated by some fancy feathers and paint. Stupid people all over the world still sacrifice animals because they believe.

We are not much different and quite a few in the West still believe god sacrificed his only son for our sins. The most powerful creation in the universe is not going to do anything to protect his only son but sacrifice him instead to bunch of filthy dirty violent sick humanoids. Unfeckingbelievable what people believe. This belief system is supported by our intelligent and rational governments so if you ask me no I do not believe what is dished out by our Governments.

9/11 and the search for WMD opened my eyes.


Having said all that you need to look at the numbers from the National Office of Statistics. We are below average deaths. That's what I don't understand. How so? We've had worse in 2014/15! Why does someone get sent to prison for walking around a hospital filming empty corridors?

Why aren't we seeing cameras in the Nightingale Centre?

Yes there is something going around and I think I had it around end of January but not the 24x7 global disaster it is being made out to be. I'm not denying some bug is going round. Just questioning how bad is it really and is this response appropriate for what it is.

Covid inquiry: The UK pandemic in numbers

Explore the data on how the coronavirus pandemic unfolded in the UK.

www.bbc.co.uk

There are 224 confirmed cases in West Sussex, out of a local population of 858,852.

So much fuss about so little.

 

[cantagril]

well, it’s certainly not logical or rational to believe that intelligent and responsible governments around the world have suddenly gone mad.

Perhaps not.
But all the evidence so far indicates that they have done just that.

No it does not.
It is merely the way you have chosen to interpret the small amount of evidence to which you have access - which is of course your perfect right.

 

[MasterOfCoin]

the small amount of evidence to which you have access

The 'small amount of evidence to which I have access' does however include that which is 'officially' published -

& nothing being published indicates any spike in mortality rates, rather the contrary, in fact.

But you are correct in that I choose to interpret that as very poor justification for triggering a global economic meltdown.

Only in my own humble opinion, you must understand.

😷

 

[MasterOfCoin]

A timely look back at the initial impact and effects on top 350 UK companies values :

 

[barjon]

The 'small amount of evidence to which I have access' does however include that which is 'officially' published -

& nothing being published indicates any spike in mortality rates, rather the contrary, in fact.

But you are correct in that I choose to interpret that as very poor justification for triggering a global economic meltdown.

Only in my own humble opinion, you must understand.

😷

Trouble is, MoC, no-one will ever know how it would have unfolded without the stringent action taken by governments. Common sense suggests it would have been much worse. Sweden might give us a clue in due course, but they are clamouring for tougher action now.

The other thing of note to my mind is that cases/deaths have so far been predominantly in hot spots within countries and have occurred at speed in a relatively short space of time. Thus it’s a touch of an apples and pears comparison to relate the figures to annual, national flu rates.

 

[Signalcalc]

The other thing of note to my mind is that cases/deaths have so far been predominantly in hot spots within countries and have occurred at speed in a relatively short space of time. Thus it’s a touch of an apples and pears comparison to relate the figures to annual, national flu rates.

Are there any indications as to why there are hot spots? Is it as a direct result of the general population not obeying the distancing or is it small sections of the population for some specific reason, or is it because of population density, or some other factor.

There are so many ways of studying this, I hope that the whole thing has been seen by academia as an opportunity for study and research and will be able to draw some conclusions.

 

[postman]

I am confused.
Does the Covid-19 exist? Is it real?
...

What if Boris dies on Friday, then is resurrected on Monday?

If he does then he can start a thread on T2W giving out the secrets of the holy grail and we will believe HE is the son of god not the charlatan we have at the moment.

 

[postman]

I am confused.
Does the Covid-19 exist? Is it real?
...
Where are all the videos of nurses NOT crying, chomping on veg, with their feet up in empty hospitals?

...

.

The one on the right has eaten so many carrots she's going to hurl, the one on the left prefers sausage.

 

[counter_violent]

Are there any indications as to why there are hot spots? Is it as a direct result of the general population not obeying the distancing or is it small sections of the population for some specific reason, or is it because of population density, or some other factor.

There are so many ways of studying this, I hope that the whole thing has been seen by academia as an opportunity for study and research and will be able to draw some conclusions.

Yeah they have started producing stats in America. All the things you mention come into play. The Black community are having a real hard time of it apparently and make up a disproportionate number of all those affected

 

[new_trader]

well, it’s certainly not logical or rational to believe that intelligent and responsible governments around the world have suddenly gone mad.

" intelligent and responsible governments" ??? ..."suddenly"???....This is a joke, right?

Stop drinking the Kool-Aid and open your mind up Jon, just a little. Start here: http://mises.org/

 

[cantagril]

If he does then he can start a thread on T2W giving out the secrets of the holy grail and we will believe HE is the son of god not the charlatan we have at the moment.

...or, nit-pickingly "....the charlatan of the moment"...as there will certainly be others, for their name is Legion.

 

[cantagril]

Are there any indications as to why there are hot spots? Is it as a direct result of the general population not obeying the distancing or is it small sections of the population for some specific reason, or is it because of population density, or some other factor.
There are so many ways of studying this, I hope that the whole thing has been seen by academia as an opportunity for study and research and will be able to draw some conclusions.

Yeah they have started producing stats in America. All the things you mention come into play. The Black community are having a real hard time of it apparently and make up a disproportionate number of all those affected

I'm peripherally (thank God) involved with Academia and am aware that research has not just been discussed but is taking place. The Hot Spot phenomenon has various causes but the two principal ones appear to be Culture and Poverty.

The less well-off:
- Live in closer proximity to each other both in terms of housing density and dwelling occupancy
- Are less educated and able to turn information into action
- Are trapped by the above two factors into health-poor circumstances

If you then add a lack of central coordination and a mercenary approach to healthcare ( à la USA) then it isn't at all surprising that certain groups/regions suffer more than others. Despite Obama and the steady but erratic progress being made toward a equality of the races, some remain more equal than others and being Black still means that life can be a lot tougher than it should be in areas where it definitely shouldn't.**

Add Culture to the above: multi-generational households, regular larger social gatherings, "touchy kissy" norms, faith based behaviours etc etc Just look at Italy where exactly these factors produced the stats that they have.

** As the virus can be seen as a Great Leveller, I would hope that one of the lessons being painfully learned by governments the world over is that there really is no longer an Us and Them distinction when it comes to national populations - we're all in it together for the long-term so we might as well try and get along a bit better, not because we're suddenly all good people but because our lives depend on it.

 

[timsk]

. . .What I find difficult to credit is the number of people on here determined to deny what is happening. . .

Hi Jon,
You pose good questions; allow me to address each one and then you can decide for yourself where I sit on the spectrum of 'Coronavirus is a hoax' at one end, to a 'pandemic on a par with Spanish Flu' at the other.
"What I find difficult to credit is the number of people on here determined to deny what is happening. This thing has hurtled around the world at breakneck speed from a single source Can anyone seriously believe it’s not a killer?"
I'm not in denial at all, I understand and accept fully that the virus can and does kill and in a very unpleasant manner. Although, I guess that begs the question of how one would define a virus that kills in a pleasant manner! ;-)
"Can anyone seriously believe that responsible governments have nuked their economies for no good reason?"
I think they believe they're doing it for the right reasons, but it's a knee-jerk reaction that they will soon regret and quickly realise there were - and still are - other courses of action that could - and should - have been taken to control the spread of the virus without nuking the economy.
"Can anyone seriously believe that hospitals in the hot spots are not overwhelmed?"
Personally, I've no reason to think this and am happy to accept MSM reporting.
"Can anyone seriously believe this is all some kind of hoax or media induced drama."
It's not a hoax at all. Clearly, it's an international health emergency. However, there's a big question mark as to whether it's as bad as the media make out and, certainly, they play on all the negatives and ramp up the fear at every opportunity. And that's not just bad journalism, it's irresponsible, IMO.

So, yes, there's a health emergency, but why compound the problem unnecessarily by creating an economic one as well? Anyone who says this and dares to stick their head above the parapet is roundly attacked and accused of putting lives at risk. This is plain wrong. Restricting or barring dissenting voices from having a platform puts another nail in the coffin of democracy. Even if the government are doing everything right - a perfect job if that were possible - they should still be held to account for their actions.

When all this has gone away and life returns to something approaching normal, the enquiries - of which there will be many - will begin. I expect the government will be found wanting on numerous levels. Why, as I and others on here keep saying, are they reporting all deaths of people who have the virus as dying from the disease - when this is clearly not the case and is grossly misleading as it skews the death rates? Why was the virus downgraded from HCID status just a few days before the lock down was imposed? Why are planes still landing at Heathrow from China, Italy and elsewhere and the passengers not even being temperature checked - let alone tested for the virus? Why are other scientists with views and mathematical models that differ to those provided by Prof. Neil Ferguson (such as Dr. Sunetra Gupta at Oxford University) being excluded from the debate about how best to tackle the virus? The list of questions is long and, not only are the press and the Labour party failing to ask them, they appear to be in lockstep with the government. All the while, the economy is being trashed at a rate of £3 billion per day. Per day!!! That's simply unsustainable, yet very few people are prepared to say so. It's pretty clear to me that the 'cure' is likely to be a lot deadlier than the disease and the national and personal debt we'll all be saddled with will have ramifications for decades to come.

Lastly, broadly speaking, this chap reflects my views on the whole thing quite well:
Jay Bhattacharya: Questioning Conventional Wisdom of the COVID-19 Crisis
Tim.

 

[tomorton]

People also ask
Is Streatham a nice area?
Streatham is quite a nice place to live, there's quite a nice shopping area and some late night places. Once you get away from the main street, the residential areas are pretry quiet.

Lot of people who don't know London hate London. Some areas in SE with a seedy reputation from long-gone decades have for a long time now been pretty good to buy property and live in.

 

[cantagril]

Lot of people who don't know London hate London. Some areas in SE with a seedy reputation from long-gone decades have for a long time now been pretty good to buy property and live in.

I feel somehow excluded. I know London very well and I loathe it