Trader333
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I found it to be much more profitable than when markets were either trending or whipsawing.
I found it to be much more profitable than when markets were either trending or whipsawing.
timsk
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Hi ZenHedge,
This isn't an area that I've studied in any depth, so I'm not really the best person to answer. And, in terms of a purely technical definitions, I'm not sure of the difference between pairs trading, spread trading and your Barclays Vs sector hedge trade. Perhaps someone who is familiar with all of them can disentangle them and summarise the key differences?
With a pairs trade, there are various combinations. The most common is to take two highly correlated instruments (say stocks) in the same sector. But one has outperformed the other consistently over a set period of time. So, you go long the strong one and short the weak one. The idea is that if the market rises, the stock you're long on rises harder and faster than the stock you're short on. You pocket the difference between the two. Vice versa if the market falls. The key thing is that pairs trading does not involve a directional bias: i.e. it doesn't matter if the overall market rises or falls.
Your Barclays Vs the sector trade is different in as much as you're long Barclays (for the sake of argument) and want its price to rise as that's where your profit lies. If Barclays is very strong relative to the rest of the sector, it 'should' at least hold its ground and not pull back - even if the sector as a whole is weak. So, the sector short is a hedge - in place as insurance - in case of a shock news announcement or Black Swan event that causes the sector to tank, taking Barclays down with it.
This article may shed some more light on the topic: Spread Trading – The Alternative Trading Strategy by Jay Richards
HTH.
Tim.
rsh01
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why dont you just trade the outright then if its ranging? less costs etc.
the idea of most pairs trades is to make 2 directional trades into 1 ranging trade.
scose-no-doubt
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Sex
rsh01
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lol
(nb: is this the first time that someone has typed 'lol' cos they actually did lol?)
rsh01
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May I ask you, what kind of strategy I am going to learn from them ?
Specifically I want to know if they trade off the daily chart, so I can keep trading and working without limitation due particular intraday strategies that require to trade off the 5-minute and to monitor the trade constantly.
Cheers.
Hello everybody. I keep getting emails from the ITPM about the course.
I was not really sure to follow the course since I thought it was a hype.
I just finished to watch the last 7 videos posted on youtube and I can say that is not the same stuff I would learn If I was taking a FX Course.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAF4bWTOZ7k
Any feedback from somebody that actually took the course ?
Cheers.
Anton Kreil did a University Tour recently. Here is the presentation. Its a good read - http://issuu.com/instituteoftrading/docs/institute_university_tour_2013
Tytus_Barnowl
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Actually talks a bit of sense on this one, Unlike his previous forays into media trading.
Anton Kreil - ITPM Professional Trading Masterclass
Having been through the course I feel that I can possibly help with the facts on what you get, what you do not get, and offer some insight into whether or not Anton's pitch and marketing is the "TRUTH" as he so often states. My brother actually works in a Hedge Fund. I only recently graduated and had been to one of the ITPM/Anton Kreil seminars. I had also watched MDT and some of the videos on YouTube. My bro is a bit of a fav when it comes to the parents, so I never really asked him for an advice on what course to look at, or if one of these programmes was in any way going to be helpful to me. So I pretty much went for it. Anton gave a 40% discount which was great. I'll start with the course itself.
The support is fairly minimal if you just go for the video series. You can send an email, however really that is pretty futile in terms of real coaching and guidance. You would have to go bespoke for that, which again is just a few remote sessions with the guy over an agreed period, at his convenience.
The video series consists of 28 videos. The first thing I would say is that they could be improved upon in the sense that Anton seems to spend a lot of time talking about things that are clearly designed to lead onto you buying into ideas that will lead to having an account with the institute, and trading in a way that you never draw capital. That's fine if that's your aim, however it is quite clearly a serious aspect of his business model and huge chunks of his teachings and seminars are based around delivering on that objective of his. There is no doubt about that. I'll give you video for video here:
V1: Pro Vs Retail ... Pretty useless to be honest. Just a sales pitch
V2: Pro Vs Retail - Again, pretty much more of Anton trying to be clever to his own end. This is not to say there are not minor elements of what is said that is accurate, it is more to say that you really learn very little here
V3 & 4: Distribution & Odds: Sounds fancy, however in reality it is year 1 under-graduate material. Seriously, it's based around getting some free data from Yahoo and plotting a bar chart (histogram). beyond that there are some very basic descriptive stats. It is all very basic and a massively flawed argument. It is quite clear that it is more of a pitch to convince the world that day trading is to be avoided most of the time and that you should use the "leave your cash with Anton" approach. Ok Saxo, whatever. That's his objective here. The rational is a long trade on the open, take off at the close by the way. That is the empirical evidence. Very amateur
V5/6/7: Volatility stuff. This is ok actually. You look at backward & forward looking and will be shown very basic methods of analysing the volatility of a security/asset. You will use ATR (Average True Range), the VIX, and he has also plugged a Black-Scholes model into Excel for you. Decent stuff. That said, what is given is readily available on Investopedia. that is how simple it is.
V8/9: Framework - This is good. Gives you a good framework to work within. Especially good for a beginner. Very intuitive
V10/17: Correlating indicators: This chunk of the video series really frustrated me. All that is given to you are some spreadsheets with some free data downloaded from the net into Excel. So GDP, Manufacturing, housing data etc. Covers US, EA, Asia. It is very basic stuff and is something that most students would be aware of. It is no more than a basic grounding for people with pretty much zero knowledge. It is macro at its most basic.
V17: Just a recap of what has been covered so far
V18/19: Top down approach - This is good, and is one of the most common approaches used in the industry. Again, easily Googled. Nothing is taught beyond what you'd get on Google. If anyone wishes to challenge me on that present the evidence please.
V20/21: Gate-keeping/Capital deployment: This is just a simple spreadsheet for creating a watch list. You get shown spread-trading to. Both are good and Anton teaches these 2 well, without much BS. Well, I never spotted any here! Again though, the theme continues here in terms of this being at a very basic level. You can Google and find this stuff at this level easily at no cost.
V22/24: Sold as risk management, self-awareness. The RM is largely using true range, beta, and using the Kelly stat for looking at yourself! Pretty amateur risk management stuff (not what you'd get in a professional environment. You would use true range stuff however not as a proper risk management model. Beta of course is a good to know and arguably necessary. The Kelly stat, well whatever. Again, all available free on Google.
V26: Day trading: Just a sales pitch to put you off it
V27: Trading Plan: It's ok
V28: Exam prep: Anton talking for a few minutes about nothing overly useful.
Overall my summary for you is that the programme is a decent grounding for a person with zero knowledge. It is nothing more than a basic introduction and framework for you to go away with. It is not as is sold. It is sold as "the most comprehensive trading programme in the world!!". Clearly it is nothing of the sort. That is not to say that at the most basic level it is not useful. It is more to say that sadly it is sold as something that it is a million miles away from being. I can't say that the many positive reviews out there are not accurate. However considering the above I find them peculiar to say the least. I can give you an example. In one video P/E is discussed. That is it however. There are no other items in terms of financial statement analysis discussed. It is incredibly basic and lazy. I say lazy because it is a video series produced once, very cleverly that can be farmed out over and over again. That is fine if it is sold like that, however it is clearly not.
Anton seems to go to lengths in his marketing and pitch that result in him spending a lot of time talking about himself and trying to discredit every other person/entity around. Even at the most basic level. There is a constant theme to this. I also feel that he is pretty reckless. He constantly looks to appeal to people that he sees as impressionable or naive, and it works. Students/graduates mainly. Telling them they would be better investing themselves than trying to forge a proper career in banking, or other financial institutions. Dangling carrots about crazy earnings at Hedge Funds and ideas of being placed at one through the ITPM. I'm sure a <1% maybe achieve that. Is that a function of learning what I described above? Not so sure. The whole telling the world CFA is no use and suggesting it is better to seek a proper trading education? What, the stuff I described above? You must be having a laugh.
It's an scenario for a guy that is obviously very successful and very intelligent. I can only guess that he is not in this for the long-term, or that he thinks the conveyor will continue regardless. I'm honestly not sure.
I'd sign this off by saying that I am not knocking the programme in itself. For a student/graduate that wants a very basic introduction and an idea on a framework it is fine. It is poor value $$$ wise in that sense, however with a 40% discount and lifetime access it is ok. It is not the way that it is sold. It is absolutely nowhere near some other programmes out there when you compare the content. The guy is a master of sales and marketing though by the look of it!
It's a pity that he has to approach things the way he does. Take the seed planted that you will turn £10k into £1m in 7 years. That is insane for an individual. 25% p.a. returns (I'm assuming risk-adjusted at a good level) on leveraged products. Every year! Clearly madness. I'm pretty sure the idea at the seminar was to take £10k cash (if you have it) and use that. No cash left in the bank or anything. I'm not sure that is sound financial advice. That said, he has no obligation to be our financial adviser. All that FSA stuff is great marketing. They are an appointed rep for Wallwood which is nothing to do with our programmes. Our programmes are not under a regulated situation.
In the end, I'll repeat that if you want a basic intro to some very basic concepts in finance without the hassle of Google, then go get a 40% discount and buy it. It is structured and you can have lifetime access. Just know what you are buying and try to ignore the marketing whether it is YouTube, Twitter, Email etc. The marketing, PR, and delivery from a sales angle is exceptional. He is a exceptionally good at what he does. And business aside, seems like a sound guy. I'm possibly a little unfair on the bespoke option as clearly I never went through that. Possibly it is more hands on and get's into more sophisticated stuff. Maybe worth a look.
Anyway, I hope that helps.
Having been through the course I feel that I can possibly help with the facts on what you get, what you do not get, and offer some insight into whether or not Anton's pitch and marketing is the "TRUTH" as he so often states. My brother actually works in a Hedge Fund. I only recently graduated and had been to one of the ITPM/Anton Kreil seminars. I had also watched MDT and some of the videos on YouTube. My bro is a bit of a fav when it comes to the parents, so I never really asked him for an advice on what course to look at, or if one of these programmes was in any way going to be helpful to me. So I pretty much went for it. Anton gave a 40% discount which was great. I'll start with the course itself.
The support is fairly minimal if you just go for the video series. You can send an email, however really that is pretty futile in terms of real coaching and guidance. You would have to go bespoke for that, which again is just a few remote sessions with the guy over an agreed period, at his convenience.
The video series consists of 28 videos. The first thing I would say is that they could be improved upon in the sense that Anton seems to spend a lot of time talking about things that are clearly designed to lead onto you buying into ideas that will lead to having an account with the institute, and trading in a way that you never draw capital. That's fine if that's your aim, however it is quite clearly a serious aspect of his business model and huge chunks of his teachings and seminars are based around delivering on that objective of his. There is no doubt about that. I'll give you video for video here:
V1: Pro Vs Retail ... Pretty useless to be honest. Just a sales pitch
V2: Pro Vs Retail - Again, pretty much more of Anton trying to be clever to his own end. This is not to say there are not minor elements of what is said that is accurate, it is more to say that you really learn very little here
V3 & 4: Distribution & Odds: Sounds fancy, however in reality it is year 1 under-graduate material. Seriously, it's based around getting some free data from Yahoo and plotting a bar chart (histogram). beyond that there are some very basic descriptive stats. It is all very basic and a massively flawed argument. It is quite clear that it is more of a pitch to convince the world that day trading is to be avoided most of the time and that you should use the "leave your cash with Anton" approach. Ok Saxo, whatever. That's his objective here. The rational is a long trade on the open, take off at the close by the way. That is the empirical evidence. Very amateur
V5/6/7: Volatility stuff. This is ok actually. You look at backward & forward looking and will be shown very basic methods of analysing the volatility of a security/asset. You will use ATR (Average True Range), the VIX, and he has also plugged a Black-Scholes model into Excel for you. Decent stuff. That said, what is given is readily available on Investopedia. that is how simple it is.
V8/9: Framework - This is good. Gives you a good framework to work within. Especially good for a beginner. Very intuitive
V10/17: Correlating indicators: This chunk of the video series really frustrated me. All that is given to you are some spreadsheets with some free data downloaded from the net into Excel. So GDP, Manufacturing, housing data etc. Covers US, EA, Asia. It is very basic stuff and is something that most students would be aware of. It is no more than a basic grounding for people with pretty much zero knowledge. It is macro at its most basic.
V17: Just a recap of what has been covered so far
V18/19: Top down approach - This is good, and is one of the most common approaches used in the industry. Again, easily Googled. Nothing is taught beyond what you'd get on Google. If anyone wishes to challenge me on that present the evidence please.
V20/21: Gate-keeping/Capital deployment: This is just a simple spreadsheet for creating a watch list. You get shown spread-trading to. Both are good and Anton teaches these 2 well, without much BS. Well, I never spotted any here! Again though, the theme continues here in terms of this being at a very basic level. You can Google and find this stuff at this level easily at no cost.
V22/24: Sold as risk management, self-awareness. The RM is largely using true range, beta, and using the Kelly stat for looking at yourself! Pretty amateur risk management stuff (not what you'd get in a professional environment. You would use true range stuff however not as a proper risk management model. Beta of course is a good to know and arguably necessary. The Kelly stat, well whatever. Again, all available free on Google.
V26: Day trading: Just a sales pitch to put you off it
V27: Trading Plan: It's ok
V28: Exam prep: Anton talking for a few minutes about nothing overly useful.
Overall my summary for you is that the programme is a decent grounding for a person with zero knowledge. It is nothing more than a basic introduction and framework for you to go away with. It is not as is sold. It is sold as "the most comprehensive trading programme in the world!!". Clearly it is nothing of the sort. That is not to say that at the most basic level it is not useful. It is more to say that sadly it is sold as something that it is a million miles away from being. I can't say that the many positive reviews out there are not accurate. However considering the above I find them peculiar to say the least. I can give you an example. In one video P/E is discussed. That is it however. There are no other items in terms of financial statement analysis discussed. It is incredibly basic and lazy. I say lazy because it is a video series produced once, very cleverly that can be farmed out over and over again. That is fine if it is sold like that, however it is clearly not.
Anton seems to go to lengths in his marketing and pitch that result in him spending a lot of time talking about himself and trying to discredit every other person/entity around. Even at the most basic level. There is a constant theme to this. I also feel that he is pretty reckless. He constantly looks to appeal to people that he sees as impressionable or naive, and it works. Students/graduates mainly. Telling them they would be better investing themselves than trying to forge a proper career in banking, or other financial institutions. Dangling carrots about crazy earnings at Hedge Funds and ideas of being placed at one through the ITPM. I'm sure a <1% maybe achieve that. Is that a function of learning what I described above? Not so sure. The whole telling the world CFA is no use and suggesting it is better to seek a proper trading education? What, the stuff I described above? You must be having a laugh.
It's an scenario for a guy that is obviously very successful and very intelligent. I can only guess that he is not in this for the long-term, or that he thinks the conveyor will continue regardless. I'm honestly not sure.
I'd sign this off by saying that I am not knocking the programme in itself. For a student/graduate that wants a very basic introduction and an idea on a framework it is fine. It is poor value $$$ wise in that sense, however with a 40% discount and lifetime access it is ok. It is not the way that it is sold. It is absolutely nowhere near some other programmes out there when you compare the content. The guy is a master of sales and marketing though by the look of it!
It's a pity that he has to approach things the way he does. Take the seed planted that you will turn £10k into £1m in 7 years. That is insane for an individual. 25% p.a. returns (I'm assuming risk-adjusted at a good level) on leveraged products. Every year! Clearly madness. I'm pretty sure the idea at the seminar was to take £10k cash (if you have it) and use that. No cash left in the bank or anything. I'm not sure that is sound financial advice. That said, he has no obligation to be our financial adviser. All that FSA stuff is great marketing. They are an appointed rep for Wallwood which is nothing to do with our programmes. Our programmes are not under a regulated situation.
In the end, I'll repeat that if you want a basic intro to some very basic concepts in finance without the hassle of Google, then go get a 40% discount and buy it. It is structured and you can have lifetime access. Just know what you are buying and try to ignore the marketing whether it is YouTube, Twitter, Email etc. The marketing, PR, and delivery from a sales angle is exceptional. He is a exceptionally good at what he does. And business aside, seems like a sound guy. I'm possibly a little unfair on the bespoke option as clearly I never went through that. Possibly it is more hands on and get's into more sophisticated stuff. Maybe worth a look.
Anyway, I hope that helps.
Thanks for sharing. I've been thinking about buying this course.
How large a part does volatility play in his investment process? Is he selecting the most volatile financial instruments to trade?
I would say that it is taught as being one part of an overall process. Certainly he makes the point that you will find it very difficult to find intraday volatility that supports trading in that time-frame more than the equiv of a day a week really. The approach to justifying that claim is a little weak as it does not really consider intraday situations where guys look to react to subtle shifts off of macroeconomic situations. It's more geared towards the idea that a trader would go long the open on the S&P 500 and take the trade-off at the close.
What he is suggesting in his course is that volatility should dictate whether you are in short term trading mode or whether you stick to a long-term idea with your positions. That is good advice for sure. If you read back the original post that I made my feedback was more to share the reality of the programme itself from an expectations perspective. Clearly the content that I describe is not as it is sold in terms of being the most comprehensive trading programme in the world. Or even something that you could argue emulates (as it is sold) a professional in a hedge fund. You can't say that when you have so little in the course.
That aspect aside, it's a very decent basic introduction to a framework/process. That's about it though.
I think the discount varies to be honest. No idea what dictates that. It was 40% however I know guys offered 30% just there. Headline is $2,999 for lifetime access to the videos and half that for a months access. So do the math! A 40% on $2,999 though for lifetime access is ok value as we are talking just above a grand in Sterling. That's quite fair for what it is. You wouldn't expect to pay more than a grand for this. Anymore is pretty steep for what is covered
ps. In terms of asset selection it is hard to work the guy out to b honest
On the one hand you are being sold the idea that you should approach things in a disciplined manner. So an example of this (from the programme) is a long/short portfolio in addition to only taking on day trading situations when volatility is there. The L/S portfolio idea is designed to smooth out volatility, or put another way hedge away certain types of risk. That approach really lends itself to being very conservative. So you lose out on gains in return for hedging away risk. You should end up with a conservative gain. Then on the other hand you are sold ideas about turning £10k into £1m over seven years using leverage. That is a 25% per year gain. Now I'm not saying you can't achieve that, however if you do I'd imagine you will be amongst the worlds best performing managers. To be that from 35 hours of videos would be an outstanding performance! That aside, to deliver that performance with a conservative strategy would be some going also! That all said, we are scrutinizing the sales and marketing aspect of the product. Personally I don't like being filled with BS. If you sift through the BS though and only feedback on the programme I wouldn't slate it in all honesty. As I said before, it is ok It's just not what it say's on the tin. It's clearly not as comprehensive as that. But what really is?!
Thanks for responding.
That sounds disappointing, as I was expecting this course to far more comprehensive, especially with 35 hours of video material.
I'm sure I would learn something though.
However, do you feel you can take the foundation provided in this course and develop it yourself into something much more substantial?
I think you could yes. I'm not fully versed on other course out there, however maybe worth looking around before deciding. I'd say yes though, you could definitely build upon what Antons course teaches. It's a decent foundation if you know very little. If you have a decent grip already, then maybe not so much
Just on the 35 hours aspect. It sounds a lot right? But really what is that? Let's say you join a firm and are doing say as little as 8 hours per day training at the beginning. That is just over 4 days training. So it's basically 7 hours a day say over a 5 day week. Add to that you are remote watching videos yourself. I would not imagine that GS for example would have you taught to take over the world in 1 week. Anton himself said what he is teaching here is what he taught new traders in their first 12 months. Really? 1) I can't accept this content is what a new GS trader gets taught as it is so basic/introductory and is not exactly what they'd be doing in their day to day jobs anyway. & 2) 35 hours over say a 48 week year is less than an hour a week. I'm sure the silver tongue counter would be that this is a tiny part of the guys training to teach him for when he is in prop mode. I can't see how as that is not what they do in their jobs. You could ask how can I know that? I have friends that work at various IBs. These are impartial people who share what they do freely and honestly.
