Why do they do it?

[Masquerade]

Perhaps if you play NL though the swings are supposed to be higher.
Common knowledge is for about 20 buy ins.
For SNGs you need about 50 and for limit you need about 200-300 big blinds. It's not uncommon for people to drop most of that bankroll at some stage even when playing well.

What are you talking about? The fact you called it "big blinds" leads me to think you don't know.

 

[BlackBison]

Perhaps if you play NL though the swings are supposed to be higher.
Common knowledge is for about 20 buy ins.
For SNGs you need about 50 and for limit you need about 200-300 big blinds. It's not uncommon for people to drop most of that bankroll at some stage even when playing well.

20 buy in rule is just a rule of thumb. Like trading you should cut back your size (ie. play lower stakes games) if you have an extended losing streak and want to preserve your capital at all costs.

Many poker players, even some of the greats, do not care about capital preservation at all- so that may be the reason you get alot of 'blow ups'. Almost every online pro at the top end started with a tiny deposit and then ran it up and most of them are very young too, obviously a bad combination for risk aversion :cheesy:

One of my closest online poker friends who built his bankroll alongside me those years, lost his entire $150k account in one day playing 50/100 NL heads-up against another HU vet. That's 15 buy ins, but he didn't stop until he was broke. When he was -50k or even -100k he could have left the game and dropped stakes and rebuilt his cashier. But because poker is more personal than trading its sometimes harder to avoid ego problems like this.

He then quit poker and got a normal job- he had spent everything he'd cashed out over the years so he didn't have any more capital. Don't feel too sorry for him though he lived the high life for a few years..

 

[SanMiguel]

What are you talking about? The fact you called it "big blinds" leads me to think you don't know.

big bets then, aren't I allowed a typo?
I'm talking about the recommended bankroll for certain types of holdem and how much of a downswing you could have.
Bison says no one should go more than a 30% downswing but there's plenty of evidence of good players with bigger downswings than that.
...very confrontational this morning?

 

[SanMiguel]

I've never read a trading book before. Has anyone read a book about swing trading? I don't know what to expect from a book about trading.

some of the books even have so called working strategies that when backtested do not work. Perhaps there's 1 good book in 10 also

 

[BlackBison]

San my point wasn't that you can't have big drawdowns in poker. It just sounded to me like you were concluding that you HAD to have 60% drawdowns if you wanted to play poker professionally, like it was some built in feature. I was just saying that wasn't true. Sorry if that's not what you meant.

Just like trading its all about bet sizing and how much you are willing to risk

 

[Trader333]

But because poker is more personal than trading its sometimes harder to avoid ego problems like this.

In my view most traders see their trading in the same way with regards to ego which is one of the reasons why there is a very high attrition rate.


Paul

 

[trader_dante]

Guys - how low does this site have to sink before it clears out all these idiots?

Here we have BlackBison - a 'trainer of traders'. He was a pro-poker player with 5 million hands who managed to start his trading with the princely sum of 2k. Are you fncking kidding me? 2 grand?

He was trained by a failed prop trader that is so obsessed that he sleeps next to his trading screens and who for some reason has to create 'fluff' accounts to bring in returns he can't replicate with real money (by his own admission). We don't know how many fluff accounts he created but we know we have seen the best one.

BlackBisons 'technique' is to follow somebody else's calls and be take on a lot of risk. This has been done here ad infinitum and the end result is usually the same. Actually - saying that - even Spanish89 traded his own calls.

Now - what can BlackBison actually teach about trading when he's following calls someone else makes? Nothing at all. Still - he'll probably get a couple of grand out of people here - who will then probably lose 5 times that realising he's a flake.

At some point, somebody is going to lose their life savings following one of these people. It has probably happened already. For some reasons the implications of this has passed the people who run this board by.

Of course 'buyer beware' and all that - but why people that run T2W give these scammers air time is beyond me.

Don't short T2W - it really can't go any lower.

Unfortunately it has to go a WHOLE lot lower before it cleans out the likes of you.

Here we have DionysusToast, the "vendor vigilante" and self proclaimed "grump".

He's never paid me a single penny. He knows nothing about what I teach but seems intent on following me around talking complete horsesh*t!

He claims all vendors should be accountable and provide statements to their students. But when they do that it's suddenly "fluff".

A guy that by his own admission thinks what I write is worthy enough to recommend to others: http://www.trade2win.com/boards/gen...port-resistance-explained-19.html#post1284376

Oh, until he found out I wrote it, that is. Then it's complete tripe ;-)

You see the thing is about you Dion, is you just pick things that people say that you can create an argument around and ignore everything else.

Tom Dwan started his Poker career with $50 and he's now worth millions. $50?! "Are you fncking kidding me?" No, I'm not.

Randy McKay. Started his trading career with $2k. (hmm, just like Bison) "Are you fncking kidding me?" No, I'm not. By his second year he had a million-dollar gain.

You're a classic example of when someone can't do something themselves, no one else can. There's a few of them around and when you have as much experience as I do you can spot them a mile off.

Bison has clearly stated he follows about 50% of my calls. If you actually bothered reading anything that anyone wrote, you'd have realised that. He's posted his record. It speaks for itself.

Well, to everyone but you, that is.

So now I'm a failed prop trader? What, like I was sacked from Futex according to Rothschild? LOL

Crikey, one of my students thought I'd talked you into a ponzi scheme, lost you millions, then screwed your wife and sold your kids into slavery.

He didn't understand that you just don't like me because your "DT Trading System" got 1.2% of the number of views, "Making Money Trading" did ;-)

I don't understand for the life of me why you can't just man up and tell the truth Dion. You, know - a little transparency?

Why can't you just say: "You know what, Dante. I don't like you. Maybe it's because you keep winning T2W awards or maybe you said something once that upset me..."

Look, I tell you what. I'll meet you half way.

Scams always get exposed eventually. Right? I mean look at the TEC thread...

So, when someone that has actually paid me some money and thinks I'm a scam, posts on here, you can join in the fun.

We can all hang out again like we did on the Flasheart thread. That was great.

49 pages.

385 posts.

Only 2 from people that had actually been in my room.

And I wonder what they had to say? Surprise, surprise.

Just keep digging dude.

I'll be back later. Maybe I can talk Bison into us posting our lifetime earnings. Then we can get a ruler out and measure each others d*cks.

 

[brettus]

some of the books even have so called working strategies that when backtested do not work. Perhaps there's 1 good book in 10 also

Yea. I don't read them because i cant be bothered to read through the bs trading pschology and money management that's there to bulk out the book.

 

[Masquerade]

big bets then, aren't I allowed a typo?
I'm talking about the recommended bankroll for certain types of holdem and how much of a downswing you could have.
Bison says no one should go more than a 30% downswing but there's plenty of evidence of good players with bigger downswings than that.
...very confrontational this morning?

A pro wouldn't play NLH with 20 buy ins lol. Need more than 50 for SNGs too but I guess I should stop here as i'm encroaching on "educating the fish"

 

[SanMiguel]

San my point wasn't that you can't have big drawdowns in poker. It just sounded to me like you were concluding that you HAD to have 60% drawdowns if you wanted to play poker professionally, like it was some built in feature. I was just saying that wasn't true. Sorry if that's not what you meant.

Just like trading its all about bet sizing and how much you are willing to risk

No, no - just saying it was possible. It's part of the reason for the recommended bankrolls being as they are. There's plenty of choice to manage that in between though like going down a level or two, etc.
I actually play a lot of SNGs as I am better at tournament poker than cash games but mainly do it for entertainment (of course, it's nice to get a decent ROI on the side).

 

[SanMiguel]

A pro wouldn't play NLH with 20 buy ins lol. Need more than 50 for SNGs too but I guess I should stop here as i'm encroaching on "educating the fish"

Perhaps you'd better tell Phil Gordon and some of the other pros that unless they're giving ****e advice too

 

[Masquerade]

Perhaps you'd better tell Phil Gordon and some of the other pros that unless they're giving ****e advice too

omg, you used phil gordon as an example? Go check any of the books and online resources and read up on BRM for the different games.

 

[BlackBison]

Perhaps you'd better tell Phil Gordon and some of the other pros that unless they're giving ****e advice too

I doubt Phil Gordon is net profitable over the last 5 years at the high stakes..

 

[BlackBison]

haha masquerade, finally we're on the same wavelength

 

[SanMiguel]

omg, you used phil gordon as an example? Go check any of the books and online resources and read up on BRM for the different games.

http://academy.fulltiltpoker.com/lessons/video/52/bankroll-management

Perhaps the pros play with a lot higher bankrolls due to the variance but the 20 buy ins is a fairly common example especially when changing between limits.

As of 2010, Gordon's total live tournament winnings exceed $2,300,000. His 18 WSOP cashes account for $707,537 of his live tournament winnings.

I'm guessing he probably earns more money off his TV, Full tilt, and publishing activities.
In fact, that must be it, he's not making money so he sells books instead, much like a vendor!

 

[donaldduke]

hehe TDs not going to be happy with me..

When you post IB statements you might also want to post the page the that shows Deposits and Withdrawals.

There is also a page with P/L summary for every instrument traded over the statement period, which shows P/L exactly.

Posting the pages that show net changes in asset value might not be the same as posting your P/L.

 

[Jason101]

My personal belief is that there are a lot more scammers out there that are system sellers and signal sellers than coaches.
I think that due the personal nature of a coach it is a lot less open to scamming.

Some people also just love to teach. I bet everyone here remembers the teacher from school who was very enthusiastic about his subject and really enjoyed passing on his knowledge.

Here is an example of a very successful trader, coaching. His prices are down the page. Anyone fancy this guy as a coach?

http://www.linkfutures.com/

I certainly would.

No I think there are definitely guys out there to seek out and destroy but I would think most of them would fall under the Holy Grail system/indicator/signal sellers not the coaches of the world.

(Edit) : Some complete idiot who could not convince anyone of his point of view, used a multi nick to reinforce his own ideas. Barjon removed his posts, so I deleted his quotes.

 

[the hare]

Here is an example of a very successful trader, coaching. His prices are down the page. Anyone fancy this guy as a coach?

I simply dont get it. why would a trader need to charge $200 an hour ?

Its absolutely pathetic. You mentor people who deserve help for free.

 

[Black Swan]

I simply dont get it. why would a trader need to charge $200 an hour ?

Its absolutely pathetic. You mentor people who deserve help for free.

Here's the thing, you're a successfull trader who wants more, wants to do more, feels a bit samey, a bit stale, so do you a: set yourself up as a vendor with all the grief that entails or b: otain decent funding and train interns/grads to trade with you by utilising your proven methods?

 

[Jason101]

Here's the thing, you're a successfull trader who wants more, wants to do more, feels a bit samey, a bit stale, so do you a: set yourself up as a vendor with all the grief that entails or b: otain decent funding and train interns/grads to trade with you by utilising your proven methods?

I cannot tell if you are tongue in cheek here.

Do you honestly think that b. is less grief than a?

If this is your honest opinion then I would put money on the fact you have never done a business start-up, employing and managing staff, either that or you are a top banana who gets your HR Dept. to do that for you.

I cannot believe I have been drawn into T2W semantic Lulz :innocent: