What Would You Want from a Trading Seminar or 1-2-1 Coaching?

[Felix]

With the posted dissatisfaction of trading seminars and the like and from a research standpoint, I am interested to know the views of board members on the following.

A) What do you think should be included in a trading seminar that is open to maybe 30 clients at a time?

B) What do you think should be included in 1-2-1 trading coaching session?

Headings or bullet points may be the easiest way to answer




Felix

 

[Grey1]

When I used to coach ( for free ) I used to tell the guys, watch me trade first and if I made $$$ then you can lisen to what I have to say.. If I lost then I would buy you all a drink for taking the trouble of coming to see me..

There is a difference between knowing it all and being able to make money from the market and I feel the guy who offers seminars should be a profitable trader himself.. :|

 

[stevet]

anyone giving a course should not only be profitable, but should also show a 3 yr p&l, with trading statements, as proof, and a letter signed by an accountant to validate the proof

any excuse or reasons, no matter how logical, given why this is not possible - should be treated as 100% confirmation that the trainer is not a succesful trader and by extension, not able to teach someone how to trade

recomendations by other learners or anyone else are not worth a cent since there is a lot of technical stuff in markets which is just that - and will not help anyone to make money trading, so being taught this stufff is a waste of time

 

[neil]

Felix

That question(s) is rather like asking:

"How long is a piece of string."



Rather you should ask:

"What do I want from a course?"

 

[Trader333]

I would say the key thing is that you get what is advertised in any advertising or other literature. If you do then you have no reason to complain as long as they are up front about it.

stevet,

As most obstacles to successful trading are 80% psychological then even a 3 year P&L would be irrelevent. The fact that a person has the right psychology to make consistent money trading is no measure that they would be able to coach others to do the same. In fact I would even say it may hinder the person being taught especially if the coach is a natural trader as this is very difficult to pass on to others.




Paul

 

[mully]

The real problem is that the vast majority of wannabes do not know what they actually want. Why? Because they do not possess the knowledge to ask the right questions. However, there is ample "information" put about as to what they should want (just listen to the adverts on radio about being able to have a second income from trading from just a few hours a week of research)
Surely, the aim of any wannabe trader is to is to make money. Therefore, the minimum requirement, as stevet highlights, is verified evidence that any instructor/educator can actually trade successfully. The world is full of very slick salesmen who peddle dreams (just read any copy of Stocks & Commodities for the adverts). What do they say... Those that can, do. Those that cannot, teach. There is a lot of truth, in that statement, in the trading business (With no offense intended for the educationalist amongst us.)
I find it extraordinary that people think that it takes a few books/seminars to become "professional" with all the anticipated rewards when it takes doctors, vet ,lawyers etc years to become proficient with the commensurate rewards.
PS Would you instrust your life to a fully trained/Practised doctor or some wanabe text book practioner.

 

[mully]

In answer to the original question... the truth about trading as a business. Shatter the illusions held by so many and peddled about by an increasing number of marketers.

 

[Finlayson]

as in most things it is all relative, but I suppose essentially u should get what is advertised & what u have payed for.

This advertised content should be researched before going, c what it is going to cost u & then work out whether it is worth going.

on a 1-2-1 Basis u should get 'live training' where they trade with 'their' money...than at least u know they have confidence in what they r teaching u......this is still no guarantee however of the quality of the info. But then u should also get support after the coaching.....this should validate what they r teaching u

but the most u can expect from any course/ teacher/ coach is a basic grounding. As paul said , a big part of successful trading is psychological & this is learnt when u start trading. Even if someone shows u 10 years of Juicy accounts it doesn't mean they will turn u into a great trader.............I consider myself a 'great' Guitar player, but I am a cr*p Guitar teacher.....I know I have tried it & it was about as much fun as trying to teach a 'pig to sing'...for me & the students.

so I suppose u should Just get 'Value' & this will be different for all of us

Jay

 

[barjon]

From my seminar I'd want a method (including money
management) which is logical to me and which can be shown
to work. From a trading perspective this is the easy bit and I
don't think my teacher would need, necessarily, to be a highly
successful trader.

From my coach I'd want the near impossible - the mental
discipline to apply the method without my own opinions
getting in the way, without fear in terms of entry, without
running scared both in terms of drawdowns and early profits,
without becoming greedy and without "I know better than my
method" creeping in. My coach would need to be a highly
successful trader since none of this can be taught but can only
be absorbed (maybe) by watching an expert at work and by
holding my hand while I try.

 

[lloydsc]

Good evening everyone - as you can see this is my first post (to any TA based forum) and I therefore feel more than qualified to add my view to the point of discussion (as a complete novice).

One of the primary reasons that I have started to look deeper into TA is that it offers some sort of structure to analysing the market.

You guys offer advice on structure in the aeas of money management risk/ reward, investment strategies and analysis techniques amongst many other issues.

This brings me to the point of what I would like from a 121 'coaching environment'. To a newcomer the options appear to be limitless, specialised and plentyfull and because I personally have no experience to draw upon they cloud judgement and I then can't see the wood for the trees.

I would like (and I mean I really would like) a coach to assess what type of trading might suit me in terms of time/ timeframes available for analysis, then to point me in the right direction to do some basic investigation/ reading up.
This would be followed up with 121 coaching initially 'face to face' for a short timeframe and then to provide a critical appraisal of paper trades made whereby I would express why I had made such decision(s).

I really do feel lucky finding this site as it has saved me shed loads of cash that I would have spent on the 'I can show how to make £1m spreadbetting the financial markets in 10 minutes' type material.

After a week of reading all the issues on this site that relate to the novice I now understand the basics and I have a good understanding of what it takes in terms of 'time and tears'.

A structured pathway would get me to the point whereby I could then apply some of my own views and provide reasonable debate. I am currently reading 'Tools and Tactics for the Master day Trader' by Velez/ Capra because someone in my office had it.

Any comments would be appreciated.

 

[stevet]

Trader333

the key thing that anyone wants from being trained to trade or about technical analysis or whatever, is to learn to make a profit

and you can only learn to do that from someone who knows how to do it - and there are very very few people who do - and the chance of a learner coming across a successful trader is very very slim, and the chance of the succesful trader being prepared to train someone - even slimmer

so i dont think the concept of the training skill comes into it - this aint learning history at school - this is about learning a skill that very very few even get to the first step of the ladder with - and its one of those rare things in life where success or failure is up there in the bright lights

and if you are paying someone money to teach you - its seems reasonable that the trainer should prove beyond doubt that they are genuinely a succesful trader - and that means a 3 year P&L or at least a one year P&L showing a good return - and certified by an accountant

(if the trader is training you to trade on their behalf, or the trading companies behalf, and with their money - that is a whole different ball game )

if the student who has paid money then subscequently cannot go onto make a profit, that is not the trainers fault - there are just very very few people who are able to trade succesfully - but no one should pay for training without proof of the trainers trading record - and if you are prepared to do that - are u sure you have the right nature to trade?

and if anyone offers to train you as a "favour" and they are charging you - and you dont smell a rat - perhaps you should clear your nostrils!

 

[sandpiper]

lloydsc,

Welcome. I only found this place quite recently myself by chance. I gave up trying to find UK based assistance some years ago and opted instead to train with several people in the US. Hopefully with sites like this around, less people will fall foul of the sharks that seem to be popping out of the woodwork over here.

I would guess that eventually the FSA will get off their backside, just as the CFTC and NFA had to in the US between 97/2000, and start to examine some of the "cowboys" over here (Although I'm not holding my breath).

Can't comment on your choice of reading material as I haven't seen that one. However your aspirations seem very sensible.

Good luck with it.

 

[Trader333]

stevet,

Well I dont agree as I know of successful traders who have failed hopelessly to be able to pass that ability on. This was not down to the student but the inability of the successful trader to coach effectively.

People also have different needs at different times in their trading life and may know how to trade but are having difficulty with the discipline or another aspect of the human psyche. This could be quite easily improved by someone who is not even a trader but has facilitation skills. Getting all this in one package as you say is very rare and that is if it exists at all.

I am sure you will disagree but I have nothing more to add on this.


Paul

 

[lloydsc]

Sandpiper

Thanks for your comments - the book is supported by www.pristine.com which appears to have won alkinds of awards in the states. It has an educational section which may be worthwhile investigating.

Unforetunately I've not had time to look into it at great length, this is mainly due to the level that I am at on the learning curve.
I have seen a couple of messages on this board that relate to the trading tactics that it advocates.

 

[Grey1]

paul,

Quote "As most obstacles to successful trading are 80% psychological then even a 3 year P&L would be irrelevent. "

I agree with your comment above but it would be great if some one had a profit/Loss account as well..

I also think the psycholgical obstacles are often the result of poor risk management which can partially be eliminated by application of risk managment techniques to trading ..

How many traders have taken a course in risk managment compare to other source of trainings?

 

[sandpiper]

lloydsc,

Pristine are an interesting crowd alright . And people think VS is expensive at 2K......

Talking of "coaches" one of the best things I'd seen in a while came from Olivier Velez, their CEO.

"Successful trading is the art of finding an idiot. All this technology today brings in a whole new group of idiots," said Mr. Velez, the keynote speaker. "The odds are stacked against you. It is naive to think that you are going to come into my industry, which I helped build, and take food off my table simply because you have opened an online account."

Mr. Velez, who said he started his trading career eight years ago by using the $4,000 (all figures in U.S. dollars) in his wife's retirement fund, claimed to have lost so much money in his first five years of trading that he was evicted 27 times and nearly went bust on three occasions.

Today, he brags that he has increased his worth more than 600% this year alone and pulls in between $800 and $4,000 a day. In fact, he sounds downright invincible. "My losses for the most part today are nonexistent."

--End of extract

They've run into some trouble in the past with previous staff members. I've seen lots of fall-outs between them and Theresa Lo (who is someone I used to follow) in the past.

Not that it invalidates the value of your reading material, but I suggest you take a good look around siliconinvestor.com before contemplating anything to do with Pristine.

Just my 2 bobs worth.

 

[lloydsc]

Sandpiper

Thanks for the information - it's most welcome.

In a round about way this gets back to the original points made on coaching and finding the path forward.

You have to do your homework well from the outset because you can't afford (mentally and financially) to bark up too many paths that turn out to be 'dead ends.

 

[stevet]

Trader333

ok, lets agree that we perceive this differently - i personally would only want to be trained by someone who was a proven successful trader over a good period of time - at least a year and preferably three

and from my own experience of trading, i would not even want to be trained for free by someone who was not proven successful - since what you are taught gets locked in and if it is wrong - it is real hard to undo

however, if a learner is happy to be trained by someone who either states that they are not a a successful trader - or states that by default, by not being able to prove they are a successful trader - that is up to to the learner if they choose to pay their hard earned money to the person purporting to be a trainer

 

[Skimbleshanks]

Today, he brags that he has increased his worth more than 600% this year alone and pulls in between $800 and $4,000 a day.

Now that's interesting. We don't, of course, know whether he is talking about trading, or his general income as CEO of Pristine (known for its expensive trading courses). The reader's assumption is that he is talking about trading profits. Somehow I doubt he is.

Just take a look at pristine.com's website, and see how many seminars they are holding throughout North America, at $2k a pop. Then consider all the CDs (which are now being advertised in full-colour page advertisements in the UK), coaching, newsletters, chat rooms, etc, and I really doubt that the poor chap has time to breathe let alone trade.

 

[Oldun]

Some successful traders, whether or not capable trainers, purport to be willing to train others in their trading methods. How though does the prospective trainee know he is being trained by a successful trader? Easy, the trainer will provide the trainee with records of his trading success or give a live demo of actual trading during the coaching session - preferably both. If you find this you have found paydirt. It is the willingness of the trainer to provide hard proof that his methods work that gives the trainee the confidence to dive in.

In my view any trainer not willing to do this should be avoided. If he is unwilling to show his trading accounts one must draw ones own conclusions.