Getting Started What can I make in my first year trading?

We get questions like this one quite often. We find that most aspiring traders don't have a clue as to what to expect from the market. Yet here they are, putting up their money. Most are going to learn the hard way. We have no idea in the world what you can expect to make in your first year of trading, or any other year, for that matter. What we can tell you is that without proper guidance and help, you are probably going to have some very bitter experiences. Why? Because your anticipations are almost completely wrong.

Futures traders, especially beginning traders, often open an account with unrealistic expectations of trading performance. These expectations could be formed by the sales literature for a trading program that emphasizes its profitability, by reports of success stories by top traders or by some brokers within the industry. In all cases, you are rarely made aware of the many other times when performances were considerably worse. In other words, you are a victim of selection bias.

Most advertisers of courses, systems, books, etc., will mislead you into thinking that you just can't lose if you buy what they are selling. We are talking here about hype, major hype - as much as the authorities will allow them to get away with.

Selection bias is a term well known within the social sciences and occurs whenever some undesired screening factor leads to a misrepresentation of a population sample. For example, traders seldom express their losing trades with as much enthusiasm as their winning trades. Consequently, a random selection of letters or phone calls received by a company that sells a trading program often will overstate the proportion of traders who are doing well. Sometimes the cause of the selection bias is not obvious. For instance, let's say that a trader who purchases a very expensive price and charting package is more profitable than another trader without it. The merits of the package seem obvious. Maybe not. It could be that the individual who can afford to purchase the package is better capitalized than the other trader and this is the reason for the better performance.

Starting off your futures and options trading experience with unrealistic expectations inevitably will lead to frustration and disappointment. It's better to face reality now. It will make life as a trader easier down the road. Here are just a few facts to dispel those unrealistic expectations.

  1. More traders lose money than make money. The figures are fuzzy, but it is 80% to 90% (maybe more) who end up losers and leave.
  2. Within the industry, only a small percentage of retail traders are profitable on a consistent basis. Moreover, if you are just starting out, you should expect to incur some loss strictly due to error on your part as you climb up the learning curve. Increased trading knowledge and experience combined with trading strategies that have superior risk/return characteristics can help put the odds of success in your favor. So, it is important to study the markets and educate yourself before trading or, alternatively, you can rely on the support of your broker professional. Another option you may also want to consider is paper trading. It's a viable option because it's a lot cheaper to make a mistake in a fictitious account than a real one.
  3. You will have losing trades. In fact, most of your trades will be losing trades. It is impossible to predict price movements every time. Even when the technical and fundamental factors are in agreement, the market often moves in an unexpected way. This can even happen several times in a row. For this reason, it is always important to make sure that loss is limited on every trade and that you have sufficient trading capital to withstand several losing trades without being taken out of the game.
  4. Don't expect to become financially independent. It's unrealistic to expect a small-sized account, especially one under $5,000, to generate consistent income to replace regular employment. While this may be possible for a very low percentage of traders, it does often require high-risk trading. High-risk trading means that if you are one of the many who lost money, then you probably lost your money very quickly and you may end up owing even more money to the clearing firm. High-risk trading should be avoided, especially by the beginner. Rather, concentrate on low-risk, low-frequency trading and devote appropriate effort to increasing your knowledge and understanding of futures trading.

Keep in mind that, as a beginner the emphasis should be on learning and proceeding slowly. By that, I mean practicing in a paper trading account and confining your trades to those that have low risk. The expectations of huge profit that many beginners start out with may be realized, but only after you invest the requisite time and energy and only after a slow and realistic start.
 
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onelotwonder,

i wish i could have parted some of my knowledge in 10 years of trading to help those who are struggling. instead, as in many areas of life, the benefit of the many has been spoilt by the few who think they know better.

Yes, everyone would have welcomed this and you are still warmly invited to do so. But instead you freely chose to argue with Roberto about spread betting and then insult him and this seems to have somehow made you so angry that you threaten to leave trade2win. You weren't forced into the argument and you aren't the one on the receiving end of the abuse! It is your decision and yours alone to leave t2w, not the fault of Roberto or anyone else.
 
I have a funny feeling that we are better off without his 'knowledge' if he is going to be so aggressive......we all come to this forum to learn from other people's trading experiences and knowledge and it is down to each individual to decide what is fact or fiction but we have to respect other people's views
 
I know one guy who made well over £300,000 in one week spread betting with no problems, in fact they were very pleased for him and some else that was restricted in the size of his bets because he was consistently profitable and they didn't like him arbing.

When it comes to day trading using spread betting i find it rather shameful when i place a spread betters platform next to my direct access screen.However if you trade over a number of days then better prices and quick executions dont matter as much.

As the title of the thread is how much can i make in my first year of trading? then i think its more fitting to find the right market to trade and the right platform for the style of trading that you wish to carry out,rather than to just blindly follow the crowd down the wrong path.Getting this right first of all could save a lot of time and losses at the beginning and put you on a winning path earlier.

Naz
 
For the benefit of members:-

Who conitnouslly strive to learn and add to their knowledge base; and
Those who may have missed it :-

Interesting thread on the site ' A winner priced out of the market'.

The research was done by unbiased source (Investors Chronicle) and a source that actively encourages rather than stifles debate.
 
Will someone kindly answer the following question?

If a spread betting company offers a 3 point spread and a forex broker or DA offers the same, what is the disadvantage in placing the trade with a spread betting company?
 
Glenn said:
"Spread-betting is more tightly regulated than most forms of trading"
Yes, makes you wonder why really doesn't it. Lol.
This is the "logic" I have to contend with in these damn discussions! :)

If it's _not_ well regulated, then it's dangerous by definition. So I point out, quite accurately, that it _is_ actually one of the best regulated forms of trading available. And then the response to that is "Yes, makes you wonder why really ... Lol".

So apparently it's damned if it's not well regulated and equally damned if it is! That says it all, really.
 
Lion,

DA fills are usually quicker; DA orders are more flexible. Going DA you trade what you're actually watching not a different market, if you see what I mean. Otherwise, I have no problem with SB.
 
Frugi,

I accept your answer and agree to a large extent. However, if I am watching the spread betting company's feed/chart I will also end up trading what I am watching albeit the price might different by a few pips from a few other feeds.
 
This is a marvellous article but I disagree on the question of support of broker professionals on the basis that they are there to execute your orders and not to hand hold. This is because they themselves fulfil the function of clearers, and not advisors, as they have no basis on which to offer advice, only that perversely the regulatory authorities allow them to do so, in the same way that solicitors and accountants are also allowed to do this.

I have not yet met one stockbroker or one accountant or one lawyer who can give an in depth, informed explanation of how it is that markets work, instead of how it is we might be persuaded they randomly work, and other nonsense.

They are protected by their professional bodies, but have not one iota of knowledge of supply ~ demand, volume, use of time or intent, for starters.
The syllabuses of study that they follow are far removed from the reality of pricing schedules, market size, campaigns, to mention but a few topics of crucial interest to technical traders. In the case of lawyers and accountants, their syllabuses are restricted to what is fundamental, not technical.

This presents a huge pitfall for the uninformed, the gullible and the unwary.

I do agree with newbies starting off with paper trading. What you do not tell them is to paper trade what, which is useless to anyone aspiring if the main plank of knowledge is missing.

I must remark the more I frequent these type of websites that all of this is like a secret about a secret ~ the more everyone is told, the less they are allowed to know.

In all other respects a very enjoyable and entertaining article.
 
Lion,

I think we pretty much agree :)

Just an example though -

While the skilled DA trader (not me BTW!) sees, say, 300 YM contracts in small lots of 1 to 20 being snapped up on the bid by a single entity after a support level fails, the SBer looking at the SB chart is, albeit very temporarily, blind to this new information and cannot act as swiftly.

That said, the points I mentioned won't really matter except in the shortest of time frames (and if scalping you probably wouldn't be SBing anyway due to the increased spread) but I still prefer to trade the market I am actually looking at.
 
LION63 said:
Will someone kindly answer the following question?

If a spread betting company offers a 3 point spread and a forex broker or DA offers the same, what is the disadvantage in placing the trade with a spread betting company?
Here is the proper answer to your question, sorry, Frugi.

The decision to choose one or the other is dependent upon liquidity.

You should put your attention on this to decide, by observation, which of the two is more fairly following the price progression accurately and on time and which one is lagging. Your conclusion will then become obvious.
 
"What can you make in your first year's trading?"
That's like asking, "how much can you make in your first year as a property developer?"
1. Learn properly before you start
2. Choose what area you are going to specialise in
3. Learn from experience and never make the same mistake twice
4. Be humble in the face of dealing with the market - never get cocky
5. Be adequately capitalised
6. Don't rush in with the attitude of it doesn't matter if you lose money as you can afford to lose to learn.
7. Understand that learning and getting better continues for ever.
8. Realise this is a more difficult business than you think and that you won't master it without effort, determination, application and strength of character.
Richard
 
Roberto said:
This is the "logic" I have to contend with in these damn discussions! :)

If it's _not_ well regulated, then it's dangerous by definition. So I point out, quite accurately, that it _is_ actually one of the best regulated forms of trading available. And then the response to that is "Yes, makes you wonder why really ... Lol".

So apparently it's damned if it's not well regulated and equally damned if it is! That says it all, really.
No, neither of you have got the correct handle on this.

"Regulation" is not there for your personal benefit or anybody elses' . It is there to protect Hidden Vested Interest from criticism and to lull the uninformed public into assuming that in any event their interest is going to be protected as a matter of priority. It is the "glue" that holds respectbility in place, not otherwise.
 
Good morning Socrates,

Welcome back :D

Socrates said:
You should put your attention on this to decide, by observation, which of the two is more fairly following the price progression accurately and on time and which one is lagging. Your conclusion will then become obvious.


Exactly. :) The SB will lag because their algorithm follows one market and creates another, adding a touch of seasoning along the way.
 
Frugi,

Another decent response, now 'newbies' can see a couple of the simple differences between the options. These are more important than the issue of how spread betting companies make their profits.

Socrates,

Your response does not lead to an obvious conclusion as you will find if you follow the quotes offered by CMC Plc. and Deal4Free. They are different arms of the same company quoting the same prices in forex, with the same spreads. The obvious difference is as Frugi stated above, the data and information you receive.
 
Mr. Charts said:
"What can you make in your first year's trading?"
That's like asking, "how much can you make in your first year as a property developer?"
1. Learn properly before you start
2. Choose what area you are going to specialise in
3. Learn from experience and never make the same mistake twice
4. Be humble in the face of dealing with the market - never get cocky
5. Be adequately capitalised
6. Don't rush in with the attitude of it doesn't matter if you lose money as you can afford to lose to learn.
7. Understand that learning and getting better continues for ever.
8. Realise this is a more difficult business than you think and that you won't master it without effort, determination, application and strength of character.
Richard
Hello Sir, I commend you as usual in your dogged persistence and patience in replying to silly questions. The most important requirement is that described by the last word of your last sentence above.

Kind Regards As Usual.
 
LION63 said:
Frugi,

Another decent response, now 'newbies' can see a couple of the simple differences between the options. These are more important than the issue of how spread betting companies make their profits.

Socrates,

Your response does not lead to an obvious conclusion as you will find if you follow the quotes offered by CMC Plc. and Deal4Free. They are different arms of the same company quoting the same prices in forex, with the same spreads. The obvious difference is as Frugi stated above, the data and information you receive.
Can you explain more clearly to me, rather than why it is that the most important aspect of price progression is on the dot accuracy in keeping up with the actual market, that it should be somethng else ? If so what ? Apart from absolutely instantaneous fills at the price displayed, what more is there, please ? Can you expand on this ?

I ask you because it is not now clear to me whether you are pitching the question from a dealing point of view or from a data collection point of view, or, are you combining both ?
 
There are many different ways of trading markets and people apply different criteria for entry and exit, I am one of those that do not feel that the price I am obtaining has to be spot on with the underlying market. 1 or 2 pips in either direction is not going to make the difference between winning or losing all it will do is reduce my profitability by say 1 or 2 points. Secondly, what you do not know, you do not miss; my decisions are based on the prices/data I see at any given time.

If you enter a trade looking for a profit of 50 points, a quote that is 2 points out will not make one iota of a difference.

I do not collect price data as most of my trades are based on fundamentals as opposed to TA as such, price patterns, retracements, gap filling etc. are not of any use (to me).
 
And by the way, I don't want you to think for one moment that I am trying to pick your brains on how you collect data or use it, as I do not need that information, but I am perplexed as to the angle from which you approach what is essentially a dealing decision to be made, quickly, without dithering.
 
Socrates,

You have the right to ask any question you feel, that is why this Forum is here.

What I am saying is that when trading on fundamentals, decisions are not made quickly as the criteria is different. Just to give an (stupid) example, if I believe based on analysis, research etc. that the Dollar will fall to 2:1 against the pound; I can enter at any level I deem appropriate and a difference of a few pips will make no difference to the outcome. If I am wrong I am wrong and I will lose money. Likewise, if I believe Google is outrageously priced at anything above $125 it will not make any difference if I sell it at $215 or $213.
 
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