Ukraine invasion

[barjon]

CV,
What the BBC et al won't tell you about Mariupol is that the Azov Battalion are embedded throughout the city in residential areas and are, effectively, using ordinary Ukrainian citizens as human shields. So, once again I urge you to put your agenda of wanting rid of Putin to one side and try to assess the conflict as a neutral. Listen/watch a variety of media, question everything and then form your own view. Simply lapping up whatever MSM wants you to believe is playing straight into their hands and only serves their best interests which, almost certainly, aren't yours. Just sayin'! ;-)
Tim.

yes, the BBC are reporting news of the war where the facts are that Mariupol is all but destroyed, it’s citizens homeless and many of them and their children killed. Fact, fact, fact.

so just where do you get your ”fact” about just how the Azov Battalion are embedded and where do you get the “fact“ that they are using civilians as human shields, or is that just a fanciful notion that you’d like to believe?

In any event, even if they are as evil as you would have us believe and even if they are embedded do you really believe that the solution is to destroy the city and make its people homeless or dead. Smell the coffee, Tim.

 

[Atilla]

Do you not think the convoy of tanks could easily be deployed in sheltered areas parks and forests? Cities could be demolished without parading the tanks on the high street if the intention was to destroy civilians and homes.

It's quite simple really.

1. No NATO or nukes
2. No WMD
3. No Nazi training camps

Russia's redlines. Zelensky insists on having those. Hence war. US has a finger in all of those 3 key areas.

It's clear on these threads West does not believe any of those 3 issues as facts. They are all unproven assertions coz the BBC can't find any evidence.


You would have us believe Russia is invading purely because it has eyes on expansion and simply chooses to destroy civilians and their homes, especially against a nation like Ukraine where it has shared history.

The Avoz Battalion is ready and waiting in open fields to meet the Russian army, but they choose to drive their tanks on open highways and destroy homes where there are no soldiers.


The West continues to report accurately on developments with objective impartiality. Aye to that!

 

[IlIlIlIlI]

 

[timsk]

yes, the BBC are reporting news of the war where the facts are that Mariupol is all but destroyed, it’s citizens homeless and many of them and their children killed. Fact, fact, fact.

Jon,
I am not suggesting - and have never suggested - that there aren't civilian casualties, including children. What I’m doing (that you don’t appear to want to do) is to look at what I observe and question it. If, as appears to be the case, civilian dwellings are being targeted - ask yourself why? What does Putin and Russia gain by doing that? Is it really a simple case of Putin’s a nutter and all Russian soldiers are evil? Or, is there another more plausible explanation? On the face of it, it’s a propaganda coup gifted to Zelensky: why do that? Also, as you or the C_Vs have asserted, if the morale amongst Russian troops is low, ordering them to kill Ukrainian civilians without very good reason won’t help one bit. Given that Russian troops are professional soldiers, the vast majority of them didn’t sign up for the fun of killing civilians and would only do so if there was a clear objective that outweighed the horrendous optics and damage to troop morale.

so just where do you get your ”fact” about just how the Azov Battalion are embedded and where do you get the “fact“ that they are using civilians as human shields, or is that just a fanciful notion that you’d like to believe?

Azov Battalion​

Russia has killed civilians in Ukraine. Kyiv’s defense tactics add to the danger.​

“. . . Ukrainians are confronting an uncomfortable truth: The military’s understandable impulse to defend against Russian attacks could be putting civilians in the crosshairs. Virtually every neighborhood in most cities has become militarized, some more than others, making them potential targets for Russian forces trying to take out Ukrainian defenses. . .”

“. . . There are plenty of places in Kyiv where military forces coexist within civilian enclaves. Offices, homes or even restaurants in many residential neighborhoods have been transformed into bases for Ukraine’s Territorial Defense Forces, armed militias made up mostly of volunteers who have signed up to the fight the Russians. . .”[Sic] “If there are military targets in the area, then it might undermine their claim that a specific strike was a war crime,” said Weir of Human Rights Watch.

Using civilians as human shields is the sort of tactic employed by the likes of Al Qaeda and Isis. Totally unacceptable in my book. As you’ll see, the article I’ve quoted from was published by The Washington Post, or is that paper on your banned list of purveyors of tosh and conspiracy theories?

In any event, even if they are as evil as you would have us believe and even if they are embedded do you really believe that the solution is to destroy the city and make its people homeless or dead. Smell the coffee, Tim.

I think I’ve addressed this point pretty comprehensively. It’s your turn to smell the coffee. Now, please provide examples of posts and/or to articles / videos etc. that I've linked to that contain conspiracy theories and provide the evidence to support your accusation. If you can’t, I’d appreciate it if you withdrew the slur, pretty please!
Tim.

 

[Rufus_Leakey]

So the question is - Why does the US fund research on Biolabs in Ukraine?

It might be to forcibly convert all Russian Dressing to Thousand Island. But the real answer is
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/11/us/politics/us-bioweapons-ukraine-misinformation.html

There are biological laboratories inside Ukraine, and since 2005, the United States has provided backing to a number of institutions to prevent the production of biological weapons.

Why are they so worried about Russia capturing them?

I can't think of a good joke for this, so the "World Health Organization" will have to do.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022...d-ukraine-to-destroy-pathogens-in-health-labs

The World Health Organization (WHO) advised Ukraine to destroy high-threat pathogens housed in the country’s public health laboratories to prevent “any potential spills” that would spread disease among the population

If it is purely medical and scientific R&D, why is it not allowed in USA?


Don't all shout at once...

I thought this big secret might be on the dark web, so I temporarily changed my browser to use dark mode. But it turns out ...
https://www.biolabs.io/locations

 

[Atilla]

How all very amusing it must be yes I now see where you are coming from.

Glad it all makes perfect sense in your World View.

 

[barjon]

Jon,
I am not suggesting - and have never suggested - that there aren't civilian casualties, including children. What I’m doing (that you don’t appear to want to do) is to look at what I observe and question it. If, as appears to be the case, civilian dwellings are being targeted - ask yourself why? What does Putin and Russia gain by doing that? Is it really a simple case of Putin’s a nutter and all Russian soldiers are evil? Or, is there another more plausible explanation? On the face of it, it’s a propaganda coup gifted to Zelensky: why do that? Also, as you or the C_Vs have asserted, if the morale amongst Russian troops is low, ordering them to kill Ukrainian civilians without very good reason won’t help one bit. Given that Russian troops are professional soldiers, the vast majority of them didn’t sign up for the fun of killing civilians and would only do so if there was a clear objective that outweighed the horrendous optics and damage to troop morale.

Azov Battalion​

Russia has killed civilians in Ukraine. Kyiv’s defense tactics add to the danger.​

“. . . Ukrainians are confronting an uncomfortable truth: The military’s understandable impulse to defend against Russian attacks could be putting civilians in the crosshairs. Virtually every neighborhood in most cities has become militarized, some more than others, making them potential targets for Russian forces trying to take out Ukrainian defenses. . .”

“. . . There are plenty of places in Kyiv where military forces coexist within civilian enclaves. Offices, homes or even restaurants in many residential neighborhoods have been transformed into bases for Ukraine’s Territorial Defense Forces, armed militias made up mostly of volunteers who have signed up to the fight the Russians. . .”[Sic] “If there are military targets in the area, then it might undermine their claim that a specific strike was a war crime,” said Weir of Human Rights Watch.

Using civilians as human shields is the sort of tactic employed by the likes of Al Qaeda and Isis. Totally unacceptable in my book. As you’ll see, the article I’ve quoted from was published by The Washington Post, or is that paper on your banned list of purveyors of tosh and conspiracy theories?



I think I’ve addressed this point pretty comprehensively. It’s your turn to smell the coffee. Now, please provide examples of posts and/or to articles / videos etc. that I've linked to that contain conspiracy theories and provide the evidence to support your accusation. If you can’t, I’d appreciate it if you withdrew the slur, pretty please!
Tim.

Tim

First of all I do owe you a sincere apology. I had never intended to suggest that you, personally, believed it was right to destroy the city and make its citizens homeless or, worse still, lose their lives. I was trying to point up that the overriding issue was that aggression. Would have been better to use “one” instead of “you”.

yes, I’ll accept the Washington Post I note however that they say the militarisation (embedding) is understandable (presumably because that is how to deploy troops for urban warfare) although it puts civilians in the crosshairs. It does not suggest that this (human shields in effect as you say) is the purpose of such deployment, quite the contrary given the “understandable” comment.

jon

 

[IlIlIlIlI]

How many lives has the war in Donbass taken?

Since 2014, about 9,000 civilians have been killed in the Donbass. Such data were presented at the press conference “Scorched memory of Donbass: war crimes of the Ukrainian army and new data on...

www.thecitizen.co.tz

Ukraine Does Not Consider Greeks To Be Indigenous To The Country – Greek City Times

The 32nd report of the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) has updated its chronicle of Ukraine's human right violations

greekcitytimes.com

 

[timsk]

. . . It does not suggest that this (human shields in effect as you say) is the purpose of such deployment, quite the contrary given the “understandable” comment.

Clutching at straws there, Jon!

For the third time of asking - and let it be the last - please give examples of posts and/or to articles / videos etc. that I've linked to that contain conspiracy theories and provide the evidence to support your accusation. This is a simple request, after all, according to you: ". . . Instead of any news outlets with such rigour this thread is littered with sites which pooh, pooh such a pettifogging approach and happily publish any old tosh . . . " and ". . .you much prefer to believe the “conspiracy theory” type approach which is fed by all those rigourless sites and prospers in that parallel universe where mainstream is lies, governments are lying crooks etc etc.. . " Just one example from the numerous available to you will suffice, Jon. If you can’t do that, I’d appreciate it if you withdrew the slur, pretty please!
Tim.

 

[barjon]

Clutching at straws there, Jon!

For the third time of asking - and please let it be the last - provide examples of posts and/or to articles / videos etc. that I've linked to that contain conspiracy theories and provide the evidence to support your accusation. If you can’t do that, I’d appreciate it if you withdrew the slur, pretty please!
Tim.

What slur?

yes, I’m sure clutching at straws. Like this morning‘s photographs of civilians lying dead in the streets, bound and shot in the head. Oh yes, Russians are going easy (according to at) and I dare say these are all actors lying about and fooling the world’s press. It is, of course, exactly how you would use a civilian as a human shield - bollox.

anyway I‘ve had enough of it - enjoy your war and keep on excusing the inexcusable. Ta, ta.

 

[timsk]

What slur?

Jon,
C'mon Jon, you know full well what slur. Play fair! I've edited my post so there can be no doubt.

I don't post conspiracy theories and I can back up anything I assert with evidence - as I've demonstrated with the Washington Post article. All I'm asking is that you show me the courtesy of doing the same which, surely is perfectly reasonable!
Tim.

 

[timsk]

anyway I‘ve had enough of it - enjoy your war and keep on excusing the inexcusable. Ta, ta.

Jon,
Provide one single example of where I've 'excused the inexcusable'. One, that's all I ask.
Tim.

 

[Atilla]

Re: Bucha civilian deaths...

This is when we have to hear what the other side says before jumping to conclusions.

Envoy points to Ukrainian shelling of Bucha following Russian troop withdrawal

The Russian Defense Ministry has fully rejected these false accusations, Anatoly Antonov pointed out

tass.com

"I would like to emphasize with full responsibility that not a single civilian suffered from violence when the town was controlled by the Russian Armed Forces. On the contrary, our troops delivered 452 tonnes of humanitarian aid for civilians," Antonov stressed. "Meanwhile, the fact that the Ukrainian Armed Forces shelled the town of Bucha right after Russian troops had left was deliberately ignored in the US. This is what could have caused civilian casualties. That said, the Kiev regime is clearly trying to blame its atrocities on Russia," he added.

The Russian Defense Ministry said on Sunday that the Russian Armed Forces had left Bucha, located in the Kiev region, on March 30, while "the evidence of crimes" emerged only four days later, after Ukrainian Security Service officers had arrived in the town. The ministry stressed that on March 31, the town’s Mayor Anatoly Fedoruk had confirmed in a video address that there were no Russian troops in Bucha. However, he did not say a word about civilians shot dead on the street with their hands tied behind their backs.


These new deaths of civilians in Bucha really need to be investigated and evidence collected before judgement is made. 💡

 

[barjon]

Ok, Tim, one (two) last words.

1. So far as your “evidence” is concerned you appear to rely on resources outside the mainstream which you regard as just telling lies (except when it suits your agenda of course viz Washington Post albeit that you then bend what they say and claim that is me “clutching at straws).

2. Your response to my blaming Russia for the inexcusable invasion and its accompanying death and destruction was “it’s waaay more complicated than that”. If that’s not watering down inexcusable I don’T know what it………

I was going to say more then Atilla’s post cropped up - God almighty, I give up.

 

[Atilla]

I was going to say more then Atilla’s post cropped up - God almighty, I give up.

You bit like a cowboy too eager to hang and shoot injuns.

Cowboy kills white folks with some arrows and hey presto lets kill all injuns they attacked us first.

Where have we seen white flags before?

All I said was this event should be investigated before we hang someone. You know have a trial sort of thing.

 

[timsk]

1. So far as your “evidence” is concerned you appear to rely on resources outside the mainstream which you regard as just telling lies (except when it suits your agenda of course viz Washington Post albeit that you then bend what they say and claim that is me “clutching at straws).

Jon,
I've repeatedly asked you to provide an example - just one. You can't. It's not acceptable to dismiss the views of those you disagree with by making blanket remarks along the lines of only a fool believes the "tosh" produced by conspiracy theory websites. I absolutely don't do that and if you can provide a single shred of evidence to the contrary - I'll happily own up to it. I'm here to engage in serious debate with serious people who bring something to the table that enables me to expand my view and understanding and, in turn, to help others do the same. I'm not here to engage in petty ad-homy put-downs and gaslighting. If that's all you're interested in, I suggest you go to Facebook and Twitter.

2. Your response to my blaming Russia for the inexcusable invasion and its accompanying death and destruction was “it’s waaay more complicated than that”. If that’s not watering down inexcusable I don’T know what it………

You call it watering down, I call it trying to understand how we've got to where we are in the hope that it might point towards a possible solution. If you're not willing to consider views that differ to yours - why post? I'm starting to wonder just how many of the "tosh" articles and videos from what you claim are conspiracy theory websites that I've linked to you've actually bothered to read or watch? I suspect very few but, as always, I'd be delighted to be proved wrong.
Tim.

 

[timsk]

These new deaths of civilians in Bucha really need to be investigated and evidence collected before judgement is made. 💡

Another article from the Washington Post:

Kyiv will investigate video that appears to show Ukrainian forces shooting Russian prisoners of war​

 

[Atilla]

Horrors of war indeed.

Violance and hate only breed more violance and hate.

Best way out of this is de-escalation and talk of peace.

 

[barjon]

Tim,

I have always enjoyed your company and I am not trying to find ways to have a go. I do suggest, though, that you go back the start of this thread and carefully go through your posts and the evidence you pray in aid to form and/or support your view. Tell me how much of it stems from reputable news organisations- reputable not in your eyes, of course, since you cast most of them aside as just spreading lies and propaganda.

You say that you are here to have a serious debate, but neither of us can speak from first hand experience and can only rely on what we see on TV etc (always bearing in mind that it may not be as true as it looks) and what we hear from trustworthy reporters who are on the scene. Those reporters and their organs report the news which is distinct from comment/opinion which is about the analysis of the news.

The main difference between us is that I trust the reputable news organisations, particularly so far as the bare news is concerned, and you don’t. I don’t trust other sources and you do. Thus, we are hamstrung.

Any true debate is therefore pointless and it’s best left that you believe what you want to believe and I will do the same. All the best.

jon

 

[Atilla]

Tim,

I have always enjoyed your company and I am not trying to find ways to have a go. I do suggest, though, that you go back the start of this thread and carefully go through your posts and the evidence you pray in aid to form and/or support your view. Tell me how much of it stems from reputable news organisations- reputable not in your eyes, of course, since you cast most of them aside as just spreading lies and propaganda.

You say that you are here to have a serious debate, but neither of us can speak from first hand experience and can only rely on what we see on TV etc (always bearing in mind that it may not be as true as it looks) and what we hear from trustworthy reporters who are on the scene. Those reporters and their organs report the news which is distinct from comment/opinion which is about the analysis of the news.

The main difference between us is that I trust the reputable news organisations, particularly so far as the bare news is concerned, and you don’t. I don’t trust other sources and you do. Thus, we are hamstrung.

Any true debate is therefore pointless and it’s best left that you believe what you want to believe and I will do the same. All the best.

jon

Well UN is calling for a probe in the Bucha deaths and this is the way to proceed imo.

Without defaming each others media outlets as to who is reputable or who is not.


Nobody is asking how we have had peace in Europe for 70 years and why all these shenanigans taking place NOW?

1. NATO and nuclear weapons
2. Training Nazis battalions
3. Setting up 00s of Biolab facilities conducting research outlawed in the US of A
4. Why there were ongoing civil unrest and persecution of Russian speaking people in the last 8 years with 13,000 deaths

Just saying like....

Russia on many occasions have brought this to the table and said were her red lines. Here is one from the Indian press https://indianexpress.com/article/w...-west-moscow-has-red-line-about-ukraine-nato/

I'm going to hazard a guess India does not have any beef with either side. Also that it complies with your reputable source news media. Please do let me know if you think it's BS like other peeps posts you dismiss.

Despite all the protestations from Russia, suddenly it's all about Russian aggression and civilian deaths. Russia is bad. West is good. West only wants peace and democracy and Russia wants death and destruction and expansion of the old Warsaw pact.

You guys can't be this ignorant or naive!!! Shirley not???

I keep putting up those basic numbers but nobody is interested in core facts or disagreements. Just outrage at how someone can respond when provoked despite headline warnings.

All we need now is for someone to say Russian Foreign Ministry is not a reliable source. Let's ask the BBC?

Putin: West must give us guarantees over Ukraine

In his annual press conference, President Putin demands Nato abandon military activity in Eastern Europe.

www.bbc.co.uk

Hmmm, well who could have guessed? And what was West's reply? We'll do whatever we like now sod off.




It really is quite simple imho. I'm bewildered why other people do not see these basic points of issue? So sad.