Ukraine invasion

[CavaliereVerde]

Nobody is asking how we have had peace in Europe for 70 years and why all these shenanigans taking place NOW?

You are right, let's go back to USSR and half Europe under communism, and there wll be less NATO and more peace. 👍

Despite all the protestations from Russia, suddenly it's all about Russian aggression and civilian deaths. Russia is bad.

It works this way, if you protest maybe you are right, if you invade you are wrong, period.

 

[IlIlIlIlI]

 

[Atilla]

You are right, let's go back to USSR and half Europe under communism, and there wll be less NATO and more peace. 👍

What are you on?

It works this way, if you protest maybe you are right, if you invade you are wrong, period.

Well, obviously it doesn't work this way!

When or where have protests worked? What you want uncle Putin to do... write an angry letter to protest NATO expansion.

 

[timsk]

I have always enjoyed your company and I am not trying to find ways to have a go. I do suggest, though, that you go back the start of this thread and carefully go through your posts and the evidence you pray in aid to form and/or support your view. Tell me how much of it stems from reputable news organisations- reputable not in your eyes, of course, since you cast most of them aside as just spreading lies and propaganda.

Jon,
I like you too and enjoy your company - on that we can agree. However, to suggest I'm a fool for believing tosh posted on conspiracy theory websites, but to refuse to link to a single one in support of such a slur is unacceptable. To then have the absolute gall to suggest I - not you - go though all the links to discover how many match up to your definition of a 'reputable' news source is seriously taking the pi$$.

You say that you are here to have a serious debate, but neither of us can speak from first hand experience and can only rely on what we see on TV etc (always bearing in mind that it may not be as true as it looks) and what we hear from trustworthy reporters who are on the scene. Those reporters and their organs report the news which is distinct from comment/opinion which is about the analysis of the news.

I agree with you on this point. Where you and I differ is that you are prepared to put your faith 100% in the BBC and other so called 'reputable' media and either assume that anything that negates their blatant agenda of 'Putin & Russia bad : Zelensky & Ukraine good' must either be propaganda or some sort of conspiracy.

How anyone, anywhere can be this naive after the daily drip feed of fear porn, misinformation and government propaganda we've endured for the last two years from the BBC et al is quite beyond me. All I'm doing - and am recommending you do too - is to engage in basic critical thinking and to not automatically make the huge assumptions that you appear to be making. You're falling into exactly the same trap that so many people (the majority?) have succumbed to with the pandemic. That is to say that anyone who dares question the benefit of lockdowns, the utility of face nappies or the benefits / adverse effects of the vaccines - must be a far right conspiracy theorist, tin hat wearing weirdo Nazi who wants to kill granny. It's pathetic, not least because we now know that said weirdos are/were right on pretty much every front.

The main difference between us is that I trust the reputable news organisations, particularly so far as the bare news is concerned, and you don’t. I don’t trust other sources and you do. Thus, we are hamstrung.

I don't trust other news sources any more than I trust the BBC. I treat them all equally, i.e. with the utmost skepticism. Yes, I admit I struggle with the BBC particularly because I feel utterly betrayed by them. What I liked about the two WP articles is that they at least made some attempt at balance - something you simply won't get from the BBC.

Any true debate is therefore pointless and it’s best left that you believe what you want to believe and I will do the same. All the best.

I don't 'want' to believe anything - other than the truth. Discovering what that is in this situation is extremely difficult, but the qualities that are essential if one is to have any chance of uncovering it is to keep an open mind (which is impossible if one has any kind of agenda), expose oneself to a broad mix of news sources / opinion and to question everything. That's all I do.
Tim.

 

[IlIlIlIlI]

Polish politician criticizes Ukrainian version of Bucha events

Janusz Korwin-Mikke noted that the houses in the town were almost undamaged and asked why had the relatives not removed the bodies from the streets

tass.com

 

[Atilla]

Polish politician criticizes Ukrainian version of Bucha events

Janusz Korwin-Mikke noted that the houses in the town were almost undamaged and asked why had the relatives not removed the bodies from the streets

tass.com

Didn't think of that but a simple question yes and very thought provoking.

WARSAW, April 4. /TASS/. Polish politician Janusz Korwin-Mikke criticized the Ukrainian version of events in the Ukrainian town of Bucha (Kiev Region) and challenged its plausibility, according to the wpolityce.pl website.

"Did you notice that the houses [in the town] are almost undamaged? Now think, why are people being buried in mass graves, and not by their relatives? And why have the relatives not removed the bodies from the streets? Look and think!," the politician said.

Korwin-Mikke is the leader of the Confederation Liberty and Independence ("Confederation") political party, which has 11 seats in the Polish Sejm. He served as a Member of the Eighth European Parliament.


I also thought the delay for this news to get out is just simply too long. 4 days after the Russians left. Why wait until Sunday evening Monday morning. Did they think the news would be lost with people taking their weekend brake? Was the release of information controlled for maximum effect or what. Just smacks of being staged.

I saw a little girl's hand just coming out of the soil. Can't imagine how it ended up that way. Buried with a little hand poking out. So very sad but, really? Just doesn't sit right. Is one hiding evidence, bury the body or make sure it is discovered for maximum effect.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

Uncle Putin had to retire in 2004.
When he started his commedy with Medvedev everyone understood democracy was over and eastern Europe countries started to join NATO.

 

[Atilla]

Uncle Putin had to retire in 2004.
When he started his commedy with Medvedev everyone understood democracy was over and eastern Europe countries started to join NATO.

That was a sting on the West. I'm sure you know all about it. Medvedev was a honey trap.

Most advanced nations know how the West in particular US, UK operate to build national interest puppets all over the globe. They build you and then knock you down. US was really chuffed and gloating with Medvedev, until.... Errm... Less said the better.

LOL - But then again, West doesn't interfere in the democratic process of other nations, so we are told. We don't do that sort of thing do we? Mum's the word.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

 

[counter_violent]

My my, you guys are really struggling to get your heads around this situation. Russia's denials over war crimes and atrocities mean absolutely nothing. If the Russians were not in Ukraine then there would be nothing attributable to them, but because they are, then they will be blamed for everything. It's dead simple and there's nothing they can do to get off the hook.

If there's anything else you need clarifying, just let me know.

 

[timsk]

My my, you guys are really struggling to get your heads around this situation. Russia's denials over war crimes and atrocities mean absolutely nothing. If the Russians were not in Ukraine then there would be nothing attributable to them, but because they are, then they will be blamed for everything. It's dead simple and there's nothing they can do to get off the hook.

If there's anything else you need clarifying, just let me know. Yeah, there is something at it happens c_v! . . .

True c_v, but that doesn't mean necessarily that they're to blame. And they'll only be blamed by the west, the rest of the world (i.e. the majority based on population) either won't give a monkeys or they'll side with Russia.
Tim.

 

[counter_violent]

True c_v, but that doesn't mean necessarily that they're to blame. And they'll only be blamed by the west, the rest of the world (i.e. the majority based on population) either won't give a monkeys or they'll side with Russia.
Tim.

Putin's total miscalculation will ensure that his eventual legacy is the polar opposite of what he set out to achieve.

Finland's ex PM explains it well in this vid.

I'd go much further. I'm willing to bet that the West will not cut Russia any slack going forward, even if they do stop the war. Countries bordering Putin's Russia are not interested in "buffer status" or being dictated to on this phoney "sphere of influence" nonsense.

Russia could soon become the next failed state.

Interesting vid explaining how Russia will decline. These tech sanctions are brutal. Russia's going down.

 

[counter_violent]

True c_v, but that doesn't mean necessarily that they're to blame. And they'll only be blamed by the west, the rest of the world (i.e. the majority based on population) either won't give a monkeys or they'll side with Russia.
Tim.

The rest of the world consists of China, India and a whole pile of failed states. Why would they not take advantage of the situation. Russia offering discounted oil n gas because they don't have anything else to flog. Well, those discounted natural resource sales will not make up for the internal decline and that's why Russia is done for.

 

[counter_violent]

Satellite imagery shows bodies laid in the streets for weeks, thus rubbishing Russia's claims of Ukraine atrocities crisis staging.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/04/world/europe/bucha-ukraine-bodies.html

 

[Chad Seven]

He is going to wipe the Ukraine out (Scorched Earth) ...and he wont stop there

He will not hesitate to go Nuclear...I think his mind is now so insular and demented that he doesnt care about Russia...just his own world of Russian supremity ...

Where is the evidence for any of this?

I don't believe this Western media narrative that this is all the fault of one crazy man, as if Ukraine has not been an area of strategic importance throughout history, as if Ukraine is not a proxy war between the USA and Russia that has been in the making for years, as if Russia does not have interests of its own and would be lining up to be absorbed into the American Empire if it were not for stubborn old Putin. Too simplistic, childishly so.

I can't guarantee that he won't attack a NATO member, or go nuclear for fun (are the Russian media putting out opinion pieces about how "nuclear war could be good for the environment" like the West is?), but seeing him as a rational actor rather than the cartoonish villain painted by the media I find this highly unlikely.

 

[timsk]

The rest of the world consists of China, India and a whole pile of failed states. Why would they not take advantage of the situation. Russia offering discounted oil n gas because they don't have anything else to flog. Well, those discounted natural resource sales will not make up for the internal decline and that's why Russia is done for.

Hi c_v,
The Finish PM made some good points and he may be right - who knows. Listening to him, the penny dropped as to why you're so miffed about Putin and the war. He said that the consequences of the conflict will be the exact opposite of what Putin is (according to him) aiming to achieve, i.e. a stronger and more unified Nato and a stronger and more unified EU. Voila!

The tech video was also interesting and, on the face of it, it's hard to imagine how Russia can survive such draconian sanctions. But, as the ex Finish PM was at pains to point out, Putin is very smart, very well prepared and a strong leader. Surely he (Putin) will have anticipated much of what the west is doing and will have a plan B? We've seen signs of this already with regard to invoicing oil and gas in Rubles and pegging the currency to gold. While our energy costs in the west are going through the roof, there's no increase to Russian consumers and they'll still have bread on their supermarket shelves long after ours our empty. So, whilst the sanctions are jaw dropping in scope - I question how much impact they'll have. One thing's for sure: they are having - and will continue to have - a devastating impact on us. In any event, Russia will turn to the welcoming arms of China and India, both of which are very strong on tech and will - to a greater or lesser extent - fill the void left by western tech companies.

To conclude, I'm not saying you're wrong, but I certainly don't share your confidence that "Russia's going down".
Tim.

 

[Chad Seven]

This idea that the problem here is Russia invaded Ukraine and that is the end of the story I find very convenient for the West.

It creates a situation where the USA (the most powerful political entity to have ever existed, that absolutely bullies the rest of the globe) and its lapdogs...I mean partners, can use both soft and hard power to change regimes of countries that are not onboard with "the program" and justify this through spreading "democracy" to the applause of the media and the gullible Western public.

On the other hand a country outside of the American sphere of influence acts in its own interests by invading another country and suddenly war is a bad thing, a crime against humanity, the Russians don't haves strategic interests they just want to kill Ukranian babies! You see, only the West can ever be justified in invading countries because when it does so it is for those good reasons, you know, liberal values. It's actually pretty ingenious.

This is not "whataboutery", it's looking at the bigger picture. If you are unashamedly pro-Western and treat geopolitics like a football match then fair enough, though I think your loyalty is misplaced. If you are actually concerned about countries bullying other countries then things are a little more complicated than "Russia is the aggressor therefore Putin bad".

 

[Chad Seven]

To conclude, I'm not saying you're wrong, but I certainly don't share your confidence that "Russia's going down".
Tim.

And of course whether or not "Russia is going down" has no bearing on whether she was right to act.

 

[Atilla]

The Finish PM made some good points and he may be right - who knows. Listening to him, the penny dropped as to why you're so miffed about Putin and the war. He said that the consequences of the conflict will be the exact opposite of what Putin is (according to him) aiming to achieve, i.e. a stronger and more unified Nato and a stronger and more unified EU. Voila!

I did watch the Finish PM video too and whilst I don't agree with his interpretation fully he does outline the initial knee jerk reactions of the West well.

What he fails to do is address any of the issues raised by the US in Ukraine. I'd be interested to know what his take would be on "What if Russia did nothing?"

1. Allow Ukraine to join NATO?
2. Ukraine to host NATO weapons
3. Allow the abuse and continued victimisation of Donetsk & Luhansk regions.
4. Take back Crimea and control Sea of Azov?
4. Carry on with the Biolabs that don't exist, conducting outlawed R&D, financed by US
5. Allow Azov Battalion to grow and develop spreading their fantasies eastward. As long as they don't turn West.

Let me guess. We need to sit down and hear Russian protests and then Russia will have to write a very angry letter to the UN telling us how angry they are.


Finish video of PM's views is more for the non-thinking masses, confirming bias...

 

[Atilla]

This idea that the problem here is Russia invaded Ukraine and that is the end of the story I find very convenient for the West.

It creates a situation where the USA (the most powerful political entity to have ever existed, that absolutely bullies the rest of the globe) and its lapdogs...I mean partners, can use both soft and hard power to change regimes of countries that are not onboard with "the program" and justify this through spreading "democracy" to the applause of the media and the gullible Western public.

On the other hand a country outside of the American sphere of influence acts in its own interests by invading another country and suddenly war is a bad thing, a crime against humanity, the Russians don't haves strategic interests they just want to kill Ukranian babies! You see, only the West can ever be justified in invading countries because when it does so it is for those good reasons, you know, liberal values. It's actually pretty ingenious.

This is not "whataboutery", it's looking at the bigger picture. If you are unashamedly pro-Western and treat geopolitics like a football match then fair enough, though I think your loyalty is misplaced. If you are actually concerned about countries bullying other countries then things are a little more complicated than "Russia is the aggressor therefore Putin bad".

This is a super post and excellent summary, so eloquently well put. 100% on the nail imho.