Ukraine invasion

IlIlIlIlI said:
southfront.org

Lugansk direction. Allied advance continues. There is still no counterattack in sight

Despite the fact that the operation is advancing much more slowly than many analysts and politicians expected, the offensive continues....
southfront.org southfront.org
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The account given in this article seem far more realistic than the cartoonish accounts given in the mainstream news media who are intent on editorializing rather than delivering news..."Heartbreaking images of children"..."sickening attacks by Russia" etc

Noteworthy in the above article:
  • Unfortunately for the Ukrainians, the military agenda is no longer of real interest to the European average citizen, precisely because of the constant disinformation campaigns conducted by Kiev.
  • It is possible that propaganda activities are carried out in order to cover up the crimes of the Ukrainian military.
  • In the city of Lysychansk, there has been an increase in clashes between neo-Nazis and the Ukrainian armed forces and the civilian population.
  • The main reason for discontent is still the disgusting behavior of the Nazis.
  • On this ground, the locals have had fistfights, in which not only themselves but even the military suffer.
  • Unfortunately, civilians continue to be used as human shields.
 
It depends on which narrative you want to believe.
MSM presents Ukranians as the good guys while these blogs present russians as the good guys.
Following the alternative narrative can be more cool but it doesn't give it credibility.
My common sense tells me there are crimes on both sides.
I is war and war has been started by Putin.
Ukranians can be good or bad but Putin is surely bad from everithing I know and not because of Ukranian propaganda.
 
CavaliereVerde said:
It depends on which narrative you want to believe.
MSM presents Ukranians as the good guys while these blogs present russians as the good guys.
Following the alternative narrative can be more cool but it doesn't give it credibility.
My common sense tells me there are crimes on both sides.
I is war and war has been started by Putin.
Ukranians can be good or bad but Putin is surely bad from everithing I know and not because of Ukranian propaganda.
Click to expand...

"Good guys" and "Bad guys" is an idiotic simpleton concept.
 
CavaliereVerde said:
It depends on which narrative you want to believe.
Click to expand...
No c_v, it's not about that for those on my side of the argument. It's about trying to establish the truth and recognising - as n_t rightly points out - that there are no good guys, they're all bad and all of them are spewing out propaganda. But, in amongst all of that, there will be truths and facts. Unearthing them requires an open mind, which one can't possibly have if one's entire outlook is viewed through the lens of 'Zelensky and Ukraine good - Putin and Russia bad'.
CavaliereVerde said:
MSM presents Ukranians as the good guys while these blogs present russians as the good guys.
Click to expand...
Correct in the first instance - wrong in the second. If the facts on the ground clearly indicate that Russia is winning the war and someone blogs to that effect - it does not necessarily follow that said blogger supports Putin and thinks Russia are the good guys!
CavaliereVerde said:
Following the alternative narrative can be more cool but it doesn't give it credibility.
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If you seriously think that any of us on here who disagree with you and the MSM narrative are doing it to appear 'cool' - then you're even more misguided than I thought!
CavaliereVerde said:
My common sense tells me there are crimes on both sides.
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At last, something we can agree upon.
CavaliereVerde said:
I is war and war has been started by Putin.
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The current 'special military operation' was started by Putin but, arguably, the war was started by Ukraine in 2014.
CavaliereVerde said:
Ukranians can be good or bad but Putin is surely bad from everithing I know and not because of Ukranian propaganda.
Click to expand...
Again, this is where you're going wrong and your judgement is clouded and your argument is weak. To resolve this issue, read, mark, learn and inwardly digest n_t's post #1,583, above!
;)
Tim.
 
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timsk said:
wrong in the second. If the facts on the ground clearly indicate that Russia is winning the war and someone blogs to that effect -
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We were speaking about violence and crimes not about who is winning.
Facts on ground tell me that 99% of death and desctruction is caused by russian army.
 
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CavaliereVerde said:
We were speaking about violence and crimes not about who is winning.
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You missed the point of my comment which has nothing per se to do with who is winning or losing and applies equally well to violence and war crimes.
CavaliereVerde said:
Facts on ground tell me that 99% of death and desctruction is caused by russian army.
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Those aren't facts at all CV, they're western MSM propaganda. Much of the death and destruction in the south east of the country is down to Ukrainian forces fighting the separatists and not the Russian army.
 
timsk said:
Much of the death and destruction in the south east of the country is down to Ukrainian forces fighting the separatists
Click to expand...
Maybe you edited your comment, if this is what you really want to say, I dont' think ukranian army destroyed Mariupol, the destruction happened when the city was surrounded by russians.
Same story about the partial destruction of Kharkiv.
 
CavaliereVerde said:
Maybe you edited your comment, if this is what you really want to say, I dont' think ukranian army destroyed Mariupol, the destruction happened when the city was surrounded by russians.
Same story about the partial destruction of Kharkiv.
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Why did the Russians surround Mariupol?

Why was Kharkiv partially destroyed?
 
First we should agree on who destroyed Mariupol and Kharkiv, if we dont' agree on "facts on ground" it is pointless to discuss about plans and motivations.
 
CavaliereVerde said:
First we should agree on who destroyed Mariupol and Kharkiv, if we dont' agree on "facts on ground" it is pointless to discuss about plans and motivations.
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That's the problem; trying to control the narrative with what came first and everything else there after???

References like it depends on what you believe doesn't help either. People believe in all sorts of weird and fantastic things.

From my perspective, the Avoz Battalion could have saved the destruction of Mariupol simply by negotiating with the Russians. Put it in another way, why make your self a target, destroy the city fighting amongst civilians and then surrender. Why not surrender at the start and save the City? You see another view-point I hope.

Ofcourse you could really go right to the start and ask your self, why did the Russians mass troops at the border for a good few months?

Why did Ukraine not take Russian grievances seriously?

You know simple things like why did Ukraine halt pension payments to some of her citizens?

You can ask lots of questions first.

But I am sooooo freaking sick and tired of the West's narrative, Putin bad, Russia invaded first BS and the fact that you choose to repeat this line of tosh means the argument doesn't go anywhere but go round in circles.

Biden making good capital out of this blaming inflation and recession on Russia???

What a senile creature he is. Betcha he doesn't tie up his own shoe laces. I'm almost ready to put my pension on it, he wears a bib at feeding time too.

Mass public don't give a hoot whilst poor Ukrainian and Russian brothers die fighting each other. That is what so effing sad about this. Everyone else who supports Ukraine to continue fighting are just ignorant or blind is what I believe.
 
Shoulda coulda... provocations... whatif scenarions...
If Zelensky fled/surrendered on day 1 there would be no destruction of Mariupol...
US is bad NATO is bad so Russia has to be right...

The point is when you do that kind of destruction you cannot be right, even if Ukraine were full of neonazis and US nukes.
 
IMHO - I don't see how this war could not have been prevented by talks and negotiations. We missed a second chance in March after the first talks, because Zelensky was told to carry on.

Stubborn intransigence.

Unintended or intended consequences will ensue.

West is losing. East is winning. Sobering clarity opens up minds.

I'm surprised you are concerned with right or wrong. As principles go, Western democracy is pretty trumped up in their foreign policy, wars and selective partnerships with dictators.
 
Atilla said:
I'm surprised you are concerned with right or wrong. As principles go, Western democracy is pretty trumped up in their foreign policy, wars and selective partnerships with dictators.
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"Western democracy" = US
US is often wrong, this time is right because Ukraine is right and supporting Ukraine is the right thing to do.
 
CavaliereVerde said:
The point is when you do that kind of destruction you cannot be right, even if Ukraine were full of neonazis and US nukes.
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Sorry CV, but I'm afraid the moral high ground is fully occupied by those of us who want the death and destruction to end immediately which, needless to say, could be instigated by you (not literally) and those who support the financial and military aid being showered like confetti on Zelensky and Ukraine. You know full well that the minute BoJo and Biden et al tell Zelensky that the aid will stop and that he must negotiate a peace deal with Putin - then that's exactly what he'll do. He has no other option.

Besides which, your point might have some validity if (note emphasis) you applied it equally across the board. Again, needless to say, you don't do that. You reserve your ire and wrath for Putin and Russia, while Nato and the west are exempt from criticism even though they invade other countries without provocation. (Don't mention the war Iraq!)

Lastly, you keep coming back to the same point of good Vs bad or right Vs wrong. Unless and until you step off that pointless ferris wheel - you'll go round in circles ad infinitum until you're forced off it because Zelensky's forces are all but wiped out and the country formerly known as Ukraine is coloured red. The game is up CV - it's just your pride and your desire for the outcome that you want that's stopping you from admitting it.
Tim.
 
timsk said:
Besides which, your point might have some validity if (note emphasis) you applied it equally across the board. Again, needless to say, you don't do that. You reserve your ire and wrath for Putin and Russia, while Nato and the west are exempt from criticism even though they invade other countries without provocation. (Don't mention the war Iraq!)
Click to expand...
But I am applying it equally.
US was wrong with Irak and wrong with Lybia.
Who invades is wrong , either US Russia or China.
Who carpet bombs cities is a criminal, either US or Russia.
I am just trying to stay on topic.
 
CavaliereVerde said:
"Western democracy" = US
US is often wrong, this time is right because Ukraine is right and supporting Ukraine is the right thing to do.
Click to expand...

B0ll0X to that.

Freaking US doesn't respect her own or any other democracy either. Does biz with any corrupt, fascist / communist / other regime what ever it is in exchange for money. Over throws elected regimes and tilts elections in her own interests.

When election time comes in US the number of voting booths is not proportional either. In black areas there is disproportionately fewer voting stations and booths than rich sparsely populated areas. Thus poor people queue up for hours or just give up standing in queues and not bother voting. Richest freaking nation trumpeting democracy and the whole election process is rigged in favour of corporations, the rich elite exploiting the poor. The distribution of income is about wide and skewed as Niagra falls.

It's all about making money.

You need $100m just to enter the selection race. Corporations have far more power than individuals.

You really need to take your head out of this democracy nonsense in my sincere opinion.

You say, US often wrong but right this time. REALLY???

I'd say Western democracy is better represented by Europe. Not sodding America. Plllleaaasseeeeeeeeee catch a breath of fresh air. Even in Europe not quite a utopia but by far better than elsewhere.
 
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