Ukraine invasion

[CavaliereVerde]

 

[Atilla]

Doris the Boris is on alternative reality. He says... Ukraine was never going to join NATO

Ukraine President Signs Constitutional Amendment On NATO, EU Membership

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko has signed a constitutional amendment committing the country to becoming a member of NATO and the European Union.

www.rferl.org

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko has signed a constitutional amendment committing the country to becoming a member of NATO and the European Union.

Addressing parliament on February 19 2019, Poroshenko said he saw securing Ukraine's membership in NATO and the EU as his "strategic mission."

Ukraine should "submit a request for EU membership and receive a NATO membership action plan no later than 2023," the president told the Verkhovna Rada.


I think we all know what comes after membership of NATO. Weapons deployed in Ukraine.

Boris telling us what and the why doesn't make it so.

I have lost count the number of bodies trying to re-tell, re-phrase, re-interpret the why... Are these people deaf and blind or just intentionally obtuse and deceitful with the truth?

 

[Atilla]

Met up with friends and discussed Ukraine at our local this afternoon. I was well and truly surprised by what I heard. Apparently, the borders of Ukraine were never ratified.

I had to google it and found this... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State...delimitation and the,fall of the Soviet Union.

They also said Ukraine was one of the biggest corrupt countries and many killings were taking place in the east since 2014. 14-15K deaths were reported. I haven't checked this.

Also, Zelensky has a $35m Florida mansion and $1.2bn in a Costa Rican Dresdner Bank.


He really must be some sh!t hot comedian.

 

[IlIlIlIlI]

They also said Ukraine was one of the biggest corrupt countries and many killings were taking place in the east since 2014. 14-15K deaths were reported. I haven't checked this.

War in Donbas - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[CavaliereVerde]

Also, Zelensky has a $35m Florida mansion and $1.2bn in a Costa Rican Dresdner Bank.


He really must be some sh!t hot comedian.

Yes Zelensky is a very succesfull comedian and he is not hiding his properties.
Putin is earning 100k per year... teorethically...
Unofficially Putin is the richest man in the world.

 

[counter_violent]

This is a lot nearer the mark than all the nonsense peddled about Ukraine Nato and EU membership.

The fact that Putin has invaded Ukraine may simply have speeded up the processes that may or may not have happened. Membership of NATO is not some automatic right and neither is membership of the EU.

Putins motivation is fear of creeping democratization, which undermines his control and very existance as leader of a repressed Russia. Exactly the same thing in China. Ask those in Hong Kong whether life was better before China's involvement. I'm pretty sure I know what the answer would be.

 

[Atilla]

Yes Zelensky is a very succesfull comedian and he is not hiding his properties.
Putin is earning 100k per year... teorethically...
Unofficially Putin is the richest man in the world.

Really now... You should play cricket with that kind of batting skills you have.

Top 100 Richest Comedians

www.therichest.com

Don't see Zelensky on that list do you?

His got some explanation to do on how he got those millions.

Anyhow, point is he is not just a comedian. He has history and to go from comedian to leader in 3 months is quite a performance.

Why don't you apply the same due dilligence to his motivation as you do to Putin's.


Ukraine doesn't sound like a swingers paradise even before the Russian intervention. No smoke without fire.

 

[Atilla]

This is a lot nearer the mark than all the nonsense peddled about Ukraine Nato and EU membership.

The fact that Putin has invaded Ukraine may simply have speeded up the processes that may or may not have happened. Membership of NATO is not some automatic right and neither is membership of the EU.

Putins motivation is fear of creeping democratization, which undermines his control and very existance as leader of a repressed Russia. Exactly the same thing in China. Ask those in Hong Kong whether life was better before China's involvement. I'm pretty sure I know what the answer would be.

That is clearly non-sense.

This is like stating, it's not what you say it is. It is what we say it is. This sort of gets one no where fast.

I've pasted enough references to Russian red lines raised over and over again.

Ukraine's GDP is not one of them. This is all about defence and national security. It is the Cuban crises take II.

You really talking tosh about undermining Putin's control. He is in control! That's never been in question. Yes he is elected by the establishment and removes any opposition. Not saying his an angel or democratic by any means. He really isn't worried about his control.

Russia has underlined strategic importance of Eastern Ukraine to her national defence and much like Kennedy saying so in no uncertain terms, NATO membership and location of weapons in Ukraine WILL lead to nuclear war.

 

[counter_violent]

That is clearly non-sense.

This is like stating, it's not what you say it is. It is what we say it is. This sort of gets one no where fast.

I've pasted enough references to Russian red lines raised over and over again.

Ukraine's GDP is not one of them. This is all about defence and national security. It is the Cuban crises take II.

You really talking tosh about undermining Putin's control. He is in control! That's never been in question. Yes he is elected by the establishment and removes any opposition. Not saying his an angel or democratic by any means. He really isn't worried about his control.

Russia has underlined strategic importance of Eastern Ukraine to her national defence and much like Kennedy saying so in no uncertain terms, NATO membership and location of weapons in Ukraine WILL lead to nuclear war.

In reverse order.

Ukraine would not have been granted NATO membership given that this would have been tantamount to provoking the bear by poking it with a stick. What on earth makes you think the West would encourage Ukraine to join NATO and make itself a target by allowing western nukes to be based on it's soil? It's just total conspiracy theory nonsense.

Putin was in control, but like all dictators, didn't realise that he was beyond his sell by date. All opposition crushed, he came to believe he was right, because there was nobody left to challenge his wrong ideas. So he invades Ukraine because he's gotten away with it in the past, fully expecting to get away with it again. Only this time, he has managed to unite previously fragmented opposition. Not to mention the resolve of the Ukrainian people, who are willing to die before they submit to Putin's Russia.

Putin's red lines as you call them, are meaningless when you have gone down the road of being half in and half out of the capitalist system. The West, with their sanctions, following Putin's misjudged invasion has decided that Russia will no longer participate fully in the capitalist system. What do you imagine will happen now inside Russia? The people, having got used to engagement and the trappings of the West, suddenly go back to life as it was 50 yrs ago ! I don't think so somehow. At some point, Putin is gone and whoever takes over has to engage with the West on the terms that the West impose, just in order to get sanctions lifted, which may or may not be enough to quell internal unrest.

Putin cannot even rely on any actual or imagined allies for support. China for example is too busy sitting on the fence and observing how all this plays out without getting themselves involved. China may have had further ambitions of their own, which I expect have been put on the back burner until they see how this situation in Russia ends.

Everyone seems to be dodging the Hong Kong question.
How about Taiwan. They are getting nervous too.

Taiwan mulls longer compulsory military service amid growing military tensions

The debate comes as the U.S. sends a defense delegation to meet with President Tsai Ing-wen, and a warship.

www.rfa.org

Under CCP leader Xi Jinping, China has stepped up its territorial claims on Taiwan, which has never been ruled by the CCP, nor formed part of the People's Republic of China.

Tsai, who was re-elected in a landslide victory on a platform of defending the country's democratic way of life, has repeatedly said nobody in Taiwan is interested in being ruled by Beijing, citing the current crackdown on public dissent and political opposition in Hong Kong as illustrative of life under CCP rule.

So, just because Putin wants Ukraine under the control of and part of Russia, doesn't mean it's going to happen.
Neither is China entitled to make the same claim over Taiwan.

 

[counter_violent]

Anonymous account translates China's online discourse on Ukraine

The Great Translation Movement Twitter account translates social media comments on hot-button topics.

www.rfa.org

 

[IlIlIlIlI]

 

[CavaliereVerde]

This is from 2016 but is very useful to understand the context.
The more you dig the more you understand that war in Ukraine has nothing to do with Nato.

 

[timsk]

The more you dig the more you understand that war in Ukraine has nothing to do with Nato.

CV,
That very much depends on where you dig.
It's easy to find propaganda to support one's agenda. The trick is not to have one (an agenda) and treat the situation like a trade, be objective, devoid of emotion and, as far as possible, neutral about the outcome. Then it's easier (not easy - just easier) to see past the BS and work out what's really going on - where the truth lies. Unfortunately for you and c_v, this will be difficult for the two of you, as you're both wedded to the idea that Putin's the problem and once he's gone everything will be just fine and dandy.
Tim.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

as you're both wedded to the idea that Putin's the problem and once he's gone everything will be just fine and dandy.

This is true, we tend to find confirmation on our hypothesis that Putin is the problem.
Removing Putin is not a guarantee of a better world but with his presence things will get worse and worse.
It is the same with other dictators, like Erdogan or Xi, dictators need to win wars to keep internal consensus and stay in power.

 

[timsk]

This is true, we tend to find confirmation on our hypothesis that Putin is the problem.

"we"?
You might - but please don't include me! Sure, Putin is part of the problem - so too is NATO, Zelensky, Biden and a host of others. But the idea that Putin alone is the problem is laughable. Remove your agenda from the narrative and your perception of what the problem is and who is responsible will radically alter.

 

[counter_violent]

CV,
That very much depends on where you dig.
It's easy to find propaganda to support one's agenda. The trick is not to have one (an agenda) and treat the situation like a trade, be objective, devoid of emotion and, as far as possible, neutral about the outcome. Then it's easier (not easy - just easier) to see past the BS and work out what's really going on - where the truth lies. Unfortunately for you and c_v, this will be difficult for the two of you, as you're both wedded to the idea that Putin's the problem and once he's gone everything will be just fine and dandy.
Tim.

I don't have an agenda. Simply processing info as it comes to light and forward projecting based on that. The exact same methodology that lead me to conclude that Brexit would happen.

So, where does the truth lie then? What have I missed? Remember, we are talking about events unfolding that lead to outcomes. We can still arrive at the same outcome regardless of miscalculations or deviations in the journey.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

Today Putin is at least 80% of the problem.
Of course "the west" is guilty of 20 years of realpolitik with him.
We had to put these sactions the first time he hacked russian constitution to stay in power forever.

 

[counter_violent]

"we"?
You might - but please don't include me! Sure, Putin is part of the problem - so too is NATO, Zelensky, Biden and a host of others. But the idea that Putin alone is the problem is laughable. Remove your agenda from the narrative and your perception of what the problem is and who is responsible will radically alter.

The facts are simple. Putin has miscalculated and in doing so, has galvanized his opposition and gifted them a very rare opportunity to create turmoil inside Russia.

 

[Mumpsimus]

"we"?
You might - but please don't include me! Sure, Putin is part of the problem - so too is NATO, Zelensky, Biden and a host of others. But the idea that Putin alone is the problem is laughable. Remove your agenda from the narrative and your perception of what the problem is and who is responsible will radically alter.

In the spirit of stirring the pot a bit further: Imho, the CV dynamic duo are absolutely right in saying that Putin is the problem but I would add the qualifier that he is the problem now. I would also agree with the Atilla/Timsk front that when he's gone, he will immediately be replaced with a new problem - we can only hope that the new guy will have learned something from current events and has a more pragmatic and practical approach to realpolitik.

 

[counter_violent]

In the spirit of stirring the pot a bit further: Imho, the CV dynamic duo are absolutely right in saying that Putin is the problem but I would add the qualifier that he is the problem now. I would also agree with the Atilla/Timsk front that when he's gone, he will immediately be replaced with a new problem - we can only hope that the new guy will have learned something from current events and has a more pragmatic and practical approach to realpolitik.

Couldn't agree more. Putin is the immediate problem and must be dealt with. Also agree that more problems will come as a result of change inside Russia. It's not as simple as saying, change leader, remove sanctions, lets get back to normal. That is not going to happen.