Ukraine invasion

[CavaliereVerde]

Maybe but now that supersanctions are in place they won't be lifted untily the problem is fully solved.
Russia as today, with its size and its nukes needs a strong leadership to be stable, but a strong leadership can easily derail into a dictatorship.
This war is an opportunity do democratize Russia and denuclearize Russia and maybe the world.

 

[counter_violent]

Maybe but now that supersanctions are in place they won't be lifted untily the problem is fully solved.
Russia s today, with its size and its nukes needs a strong leadership to be stable, but a strong leadership can easily derail into a dictatorship.
This war is an opportunity do democratize Russia and denuclearize Russia and maybe the world.

But this assumes that ordinary Russian people are open to democracy and the ways of the West. I'm pretty sure that they are so far down the road of state indoctrination, that it would take 3 generations to get onboard, if at all. Btw, What the West has to offer is not all good. I can think of plenty that I would change if running a western style dictatorship.

 

[timsk]

I think i'm doing my bit. It's everybody else I worry about.

Hi c_v,
Apologies, I didn't mean to suggest or imply for one second that you weren't 'doing your bit'!


Indeed, it's because I know you and your views about Brexit and, to a lesser extent, Covid, that I was appealing to you on a matter of principle. You and I both agree (I think!) that individual sovereignty and national sovereignty are sacrosanct and that Putin was wrong to invade Ukraine. What I'm driving at is the hypocrisy of those who on one hand demand that I must have the jab in order to protect them, or that's it's acceptable for the U.K. to invade Iraq (or wherever) to protect our national interests but, on the other hand, declare that it's unacceptable for Putin to invade Ukraine to protect Russia's national interests. It's a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
Tim.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

that it would take 3 generations to get onboard,

From what I know it took much less to Italy, Germany and Japan after WW2.

 

[Atilla]

Don't think i'm missing anything Tim.

.. ..

I think i'm doing my bit. It's everybody else I worry about.

Ditto

 

[Atilla]

Maybe but now that supersanctions are in place they won't be lifted untily the problem is fully solved.
Russia as today, with its size and its nukes needs a strong leadership to be stable, but a strong leadership can easily derail into a dictatorship.
This war is an opportunity do democratize Russia and denuclearize Russia and maybe the world.

Oh dear Cavaliere, we really are on two different mindsets here.

The international finance system is holding payments from Russia hostage with their sanctions. This is really foolish imo. It will lead to two systems and split East and West into camps. Russia is fully able to pay her commitments. https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/econographics/ukraine-and-dollar-weaponization/

My guess is that new financial processes will appear. This will only lead to a reduction of global trade and new divisions coupled with agreements. There will be moves to replace the dollar that's for sure. In summary, the financial restrictions in place will undermine the dollar.

The issue is that the security of US and the West is more important than any other nation in the world. I find it most unreasonable that you do not see this with the ever expansion of NATO towards the East.

Some people say it is the Russian economy that is failing and not about NATO. Then why not simply let Putin's economy continue failing. If communism doesn't work why change it to free-market model, creating competition for our producers. The whole sh!t show is quite remarkable as to why the US does what it does? To promote the war machine! Do you not wonder why?

Imo the reason why Russia is perceived as an enemy is because it holds US foreign policy in check in the middle east. To me, Russia is a counterbalance. The US doesn't have a carte blanch cheque to do what it wishes to abuse other nations.

US was the one who first initiated Iran towards her nuclear program under the Shah of Iran. The plan was to have Iran point those weapons towards Russia. Now it seems to have changed its mind. WHY? Why did US do that? Because of Cuba maybe? Why don't Iranian people like the US? How or why did the US shoot down an Iranian civil airliner? A lot of luggage full of brown manure in there don't you think?

Perhaps more importantly, these acts will bring the East; essentially Russia, China, India and Iran closer together. Moreover, any other country with challenging issues with US will then join that group. Thus we will have the polarization of two groups.

Russia is not a threat imo.

I feel sad that people simply do not see this.

 

[Chad Seven]

I can see both sides of the story in this situation. The Russians are concerned about the encroachment of NATO and Ukraine want to be free of Russian influence to pursue a future close to the West. Fair enough.

What I find really remarkable is how the Western media has their propaganda down to a fine art. It seems that invading countries is perfectly permissible as long as you justify it as spreading democracy or women's rights to people who didn't ask for these things, but a nation outside of NATO attempts to act in their own interests and it's an instant war crime, it is reminiscent of Hitler, every Russian death is a cause for celebration and nuclear war may be a price worth paying.

The Western public are lapping it up, I have seen "liberals" downplaying the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and the US bombing of hospitals so that they can pretend the invasion of Ukraine is the biggest injustice within living memory.

 

[Chad Seven]

Maybe but now that supersanctions are in place they won't be lifted untily the problem is fully solved.
Russia as today, with its size and its nukes needs a strong leadership to be stable, but a strong leadership can easily derail into a dictatorship.
This war is an opportunity do democratize Russia and denuclearize Russia and maybe the world.

Are the West really in a position to be dictating how other countries run their affairs? It is easy to point to Russia and criticize it for being undemocratic because there is one figure to focus on but the West is no better in reality. We are merely more advanced in our manipulation, we have a system of rotating those in government every now and again from a selection of approved puppets to give the plebs the impression they can effect change, keeping them amenable and passive while nothing actually really ever changes. Any politician who has the potential to actually change things is not allowed anywhere near power, right or left.

The end product is essentially the same, I would argue the Russian system has the advantage of being simpler and more transparent.

 

[IlIlIlIlI]

The battalion was created AFTER the annexation of Crimea by Russia.

IMO that's not the full truth about the Azov Battalion.

The root of this group was created long before Ukraine went independent, in 1982 as a group of football ultras.
The battalion was formed on 5th of May 2014, two months after the Russian annexation of Crimea, under a new decree authorizing the creation of new paramilitary forces in Ukraine.

Azov Brigade - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Neo-Nazi Aidar Battalion holding 300 locals and monks hostage

Far-right combatants have been camouflaging among civilians throughout the country.

english.almayadeen.net

Russia refutes reports about attack on hospital in Mariupol, calls it 'fake news'- Republic World

www.republicworld.com

IMO that are the hands where the European weapons go to, or to other mercenaries.

And nobody is asking him to fund (t)his war by a donation:

Pandora Papers Reveal Offshore Holdings of Ukrainian President and his Inner Circle - OCCRP

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky rode to power on pledges to clean up the Eastern European country, but the Pandora Papers reveal he and his close circle were the beneficiaries of a network o...

www.occrp.org

 

[counter_violent]

I guess that's the difference between the free world and dictatorships. If you were in Russia or China, you would not be having this discussion. Not for very long anyhow!

On the OCCRP site, there are 4 pages of stories on Putin. Just saying !

I've yet to check out the Bidens.

 

[counter_violent]

What a guy. Putin will be furious being spoken to like this. Zelensky doing a cracking job embarrassing the 2 bit dictator.

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has on Saturday called for meaningful peace and security talks "without delay" with Moscow.

He said it was Russia's only chance to limit the damage from its "mistakes" in the wake of its invasion.

"This is the only chance for Russia to reduce the damage from its own mistakes," Zelensky said in his nightly video address.

"It's time to meet, it's time to talk, it's time to restore territorial integrity and justice for Ukraine.

"Otherwise, Russia's losses will be such that you will need several generations to recover."

 

[counter_violent]

Putin is now turning on his own people inside Russia. Looks like the beginning of the end for him. However, we could be at the most dangerous point in this conflict. He's getting squeezed and mocked relentlessly. He's started lashing out. Whatever grand plans he had now lay in tatters.

 

[Chad Seven]

I guess that's the difference between the free world and dictatorships. If you were in Russia or China, you would not be having this discussion. Not for very long anyhow!

On the OCCRP site, there are 4 pages of stories on Putin. Just saying !

I've yet to check out the Bidens.

The West are not concerned about this discussion because it is no threat to them, if it were a threat you should absolutely believe than the facade of rights and freedoms would be dropped in an instant. The paradox of intolerance in liberal democracies is very convenient for those who have the power to determine what is a threat to a tolerant society.

The Western leaders have demonstrated that they are willing to be quite authoritarian when it comes to the things which concern them, try telling somebody on social media there are only two genders for example, or look at the treatment of anti-lockdown protestors in various Western nations. Most of the time they do not need to resort to force, the threat of losing your career and reputation, social ostracism, or as is becoming increasingly common being blacklisted from services is usually sufficient to keep the pampered Westerner on message when the relentless social conditioning fails.

I see from the OCCRP annual reports they are funded by the Open Society Foundation (see page 49).

 

[timsk]

I guess that's the difference between the free world and dictatorships. If you were in Russia or China, you would not be having this discussion. Not for very long anyhow!

If the Online Safety Bill goes through - which seems likely - then we might well not be having this discussion in a few weeks or months time. Don't be fooled by the misdirection coming from Nadine Dorries and other ministers - the bill has very little to do with shielding children from porn sites and the like. It's mostly about censorship and control.

 

[timsk]

I see from the OCCRP annual reports they are funded by the Open Society Foundation (see page 49).

Chad,
You might want to elaborate on this a little, as I suspect not everyone will understand the point you're making.
;-)

 

[timsk]

. . . The whole sh!t show is quite remarkable as to why the US does what it does? To promote the war machine! Do you not wonder why? . . .

This is getting to the heart of the matter.

Most people in the west think that the 'whole sh!t show' is entirely down to Putin and everyone else is squeaky clean. Nothing could be further from the truth. The west was gagging for this war. Indeed, they needed it. As such, don't be too surprised if it doesn't end any time soon. Here's why . . .

• It’s a lovely war for all western leaders, as there’s nothing quite like a war to revive their flagging fortunes. In just a few weeks, Bojo has gone from buffoon to Churchill - and he’s lovin’ it.
• It’s a lovely war for the government and the Tories who were (note tense) getting bogged down in a succession of scandals that refused to go away - but are now conveniently buried by the war. Remember the cull of the elderly in care homes during the first lockdown? That’s been buried.
• Covid-19 vaccine injuries, deaths and all cause mortality figures which are up by unprecedented levels since the vaccine roll-out began: that’s been buried.
• The scandal surrounding Ivermectin, which has been bubbling away in the background for months but is yet to fully surface: that’s been buried.
• Covid-19 ‘Partygate’ scandal - remember that? That’s been buried.
• Economic meltdown, soaring inflation and energy prices, all of which were well underway long before the war began: they’ve all been buried (or wrongly blamed on Putin).
• And let’s not forget big business, it’s a lovely war for them too. Pharma companies have had their snouts in the trough for the past 18 months - now it’s the turn of the military industrial complex.
• It’s a lovely war for MSM and legacy media because, as everyone surely knows by now: fear sells. As the BBC et al ramp up the body count and the prospect of WW3, their viewing figures remain strong.
• Oh, and let’s forget the EU - it’s a lovely war for them too, as it generates tens of thousands - if not hundreds of thousands - of immigrants who can be sprinkled like confetti across member states to help dilute their national identities, and further the EU’s relentless drive towards a United States of Europe.
• Fear not, the U.K. won’t be excluded, we’ll get in on the act too. After all, there’s a shortage of baristas in the nation's coffee shops and someone gotta to pick those strawberries for BoJo and Carrie when they take their seats at the Wimbledon final in a few months' time.

Putin is the perfect bogeyman; everything can be blamed on him. Meanwhile, Biden, Macron and Johnson et al go from strength to strength, pretending they give a damn about ordinary Ukrainians. They care no more about them than they do about the ordinary people of Yemen. But there’s no political capital to be made out of that conflict, not least because they are now going to have to cozy up to the Saudi’s (who’ve been bombing Yemen relentlessly for years) for their precious oil. Make no mistake, it’s a lovely war for our so-called leaders, every last one of whom is a monstrous hypocrite without a single moral backbone or compass between them.
Tim.

 

[IlIlIlIlI]

Chad,
You might want to elaborate on this a little, as I suspect not everyone will understand the point you're making.
;-)

It's George Soros' "Gates Foundation".

Our COVID Response Requires Justice, Not Charity

When high-income countries made deals directly with pharmaceutical companies and stockpiled excess COVID-19 vaccines, the rest of the world went to the back of the queue. The pandemic will not be over until we fix vaccine shortages around the world and ensure affordable and wide access.

www.opensocietyfoundations.org

 

[Chad Seven]

Chad,
You might want to elaborate on this a little, as I suspect not everyone will understand the point you're making.
;-)

Ah I see, thank you Timsk.

The Open Society Foundation is the pet project of billionaire investor and philanthropist George Soros.

Soros is well known for using the significant resources at his disposal to interfere in the politics of countries whose regimes he deems insufficiently "democratic" and the OS is the vehicle through which he funds various think tanks, "pro-democracy" initiatives and NGOs to achieve his goals.

Russia has been on his hit list for some time so we should expect nothing less than unfavorable coverage of Putin by the OCCRP and I would be very surprised if they have articles covering the dealings of Soros' buddies in the "free West".

 

[IlIlIlIlI]

Russia has been on his hit list for some time so we should expect nothing less than unfavorable coverage of Putin by the OCCRP and I would be very surprised if they have articles covering the dealings of Soros' buddies in the "free West".

Open Society Launches Fund for a Free and Democratic Ukraine

Amid Putin’s invasion of Ukraine, Open Society is committing an initial $25 million to a new Ukraine Democracy Fund to support the country, aiming to grow the total fund with contributions from the private sector.

www.opensocietyfoundations.org

 

[IlIlIlIlI]

Humanitarian situation during the war in Donbas - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Over 120,000 Donbas refugees cross into Russia to date - United Russia's Turchak

interfax.com

https://euromaidanpress.com/2021/03/23/facts-figures-in-occupied-donbas-is-reintegration-a-realistic-prospect/

‘All you can do is cry’: Donbas evacuees face uncertain future in Russia

Border regions appear unprepared for hundreds of people arriving from separatist-controlled areas in Ukraine

www.theguardian.com