Can I just correct something here. Investment bank traders DO NOT trade for a living. They are paid a salary to turn up each day. They may possibly get a % bonus of any proprietary trading they do on their book but most bank "traders" are actually just market makers and take very little proprietary risk, if any at all. Having worked at banks and hedge funds. I can quite happily say that a 'trader' at a bank yields zero interest and is just as idiotic as your average Joe. A 'trader' at a hedge fund on the other hand. He's the guy you want to be talking. He IS trading for a living.
Sell side vs buy side.
Whilst I do kinda agree that there's a lot of crap in front office, the traders that I know that work for hedge funds ALL worked for investment banks before that so clearly some "traders" at banks are the real deal. A good example is one (HF) fund manger I know and have worked with who used to work for an IB as a flow trader. When him and his team left the bank, it left a $1bn hole in the bank's p/l that year yet pure flow accounted for less than half that amount.
Also, surely it depends on what desk you are on? eg if you work on a money markets trader or a repo trader, from what I have seen you are likely not half the trader that works on the dollar (IR) swaps desk, just seemed to be the way it worked, they don't get to take as much risk and their product universe can be pretty dull.
It's not coincidence that the "rogue" traders have all been delta 1 or f&o traders.
I can only speak about the one bank I've worked at but the vast majority of traders I knew I would class as trading for a living. Most were flow traders, some prop but the vast majority of the time, their book was never flat (although this was 08-09) and they took on prop risk.
Additionally, as I've said on a different thread, I don't neccessarily regard quant (systematic) traders as actual traders if they build a system that trades but do not trade themselves. That is not to say they are not f**king good at making money as a lot of them do I just don't see that as trading. The model trades, you don't.
But, to be a good flow or prop trader in a bank, I think you do end up trading as a living. Yeah you get a salary but when your bonus is 10 - 50x that and is based on your p/l then IMHO you are trading for a living.
Am curious which banks you've worked at? I've only worked at one US IB and the traders I came into contact with were far smarter and more clued up than your average bod.
Anyway, just my opinion but I got to disagree based on who I have encountered, worked with and in some cases have got to know pretty well.
ps don't get me wrong, I've also met some real f**king idiots but on the bigger trading desks, they are much fewer and farther between.