Sick 'em onto the army!

[Splitlink]

I'm listening to 5Live phone in. Bring back National Service some are saying.

All these bums and stiffs in the army!

Britain's last hope.

 

[the hare]

yeah good call. arm them and teach them to fight properly, then dump em back in the ghetto where they came from.... sounds like a workable plan.

These scum are just the symptoms of the illness, not the cause.

 

[bbmac]

we should up the standard of exams and entry qualifications for university, create vocational colleges for those not wanting or unable to get into uni and then for all the rest - compulsary national service where they can have some discipline knocked into them. As for life before that stage for your people, we should up discipline levels in schools and for those that don't comply/don't attend they are expelled and sent to boot camp boarding schools where their only way out back into mainstream schooling is to learn some discipline and respect.

Kids from broken families and sink estates turn to gangs beacuse they don't get the structure, discipline and feeling of belonging at home - the state can offer this is a structured and supervised way.

Serious problems require serious solutions but I fear we won't get them - a vacumn of leadership..although Cameron in his post Cobra meeting statement from Downing Street yesterday went further than any PM in 30years in saying what the nation is thinking, I particularly liked his comment that the police should have the powers they need and 'feck the european court of human rights,' Lol

There is only one deterent - fear and we must use it to bring these elements of society back into line whilst using the carrot as well as the stick.

 

[bbmac]

and here is the cure to the largest rate of teenage pregnancy in Europe...kids bringing up kids - encouraged by the state by the support and hand outs given - worse still kids bringing up kids who like them and their parents will probably never work/be involved in crime and a complete drain on society.

Here's the solution: Withdraw all state support for anyone having a kid (s) who cannot prove they have a job / in a stable relationship...ie no free flat, benefits, child support etc... then these kids will stop having kids and if they do will abandom them to the state who can then give the 1000's of loving decent couples longing to adopt. The kid gets a stable environment and better start in life and the state wins too....these rates of pregnancy will soon plummet.

Moreover - no state support for those who have kids that fell pregnant whilst on benefits.

Simples ! But again no politician will do it in this crisis of moral leadership that we suffer from today.

 

[Splitlink]

yeah good call. arm them and teach them to fight properly, then dump em back in the ghetto where they came from.... sounds like a workable plan.

These scum are just the symptoms of the illness, not the cause.

I am old enough to remember NS, although I was in the MN, which was exempt (you had to do seven years there, in case anyone wanted to dodge NS).

My friend and his brother were in the RAF at Stevenage. They got home every weekend because RAF did not know what to do with them.

I remember that the Services complained, bitterly, because most of the conscripts were educationally inadequate, it cost too much and it was impossible to train them in eighteen months.

The same thing happened here, in Spain, although they had it until around 1980.

Another problem was that, since it was for everyone, guys like my mate, who were decently behaved had no chance against the riff raff. In fact, life could be very miserable. "Toughening up and it's good for them" is all very relative in those cases.

 

[Pat494]

A better solution would be to have residents in charge of the " sink estates ", who can force unemployed residents into their own task force, which would look after the estate. Although the accomodation is classified as basic, it is a whole lot better than the slums of the 3rd world with 2 families living in 1 room. With lots of TLC even these estates could be nice places to live in. Put in gardens and allotments where possible, fill in the cracks, potholes type of maintenance. Make people proud to live on their estate !! Oh YES it can be achieved

 

[Pazienza]

I actually agree with quite a lot of what BBmac is saying.

I think though that there is no quick fix to any of this, which is why the solutions put forward by our politicians will be useless. It took nearly half a century to get to this point (in my view the origins of this problem actually go back further, really to the Second World War and its aftermath); I believe it is naive to expect to be able to turn this around other than by consistent effort and thoughtful, determined reform over a period of decades.

 

[0007]

I'm listening to 5Live phone in. Bring back National Service some are saying.

All these bums and stiffs in the army!

Britain's last hope.

What makes all these 5L listeners think the Army would want them?

What I've seen of the quality and determination (especially after injury) of our lads & lasses in the fighting hotspots, bears no relationship to the scumbags and social inadequates causing trouble here.

 

[Splitlink]

Residents in charge? Maybe I'd prefer them to be in the army, after all.

I read that Wellington was doing a tour of his troops before Waterloo. They were all in tents but all were drunk to the eyeballs and he said

"Napoleon says he isn't frightened of the British soldier but, I must say, they scare the hell out of me!"

 

[scose-no-doubt]

Here's the solution: Withdraw all state support for anyone having a kid (s) who cannot prove they have a job / in a stable relationship...ie no free flat, benefits, child support etc... then these kids will stop having kids and if they do will abandom them to the state who can then give the 1000's of loving decent couples longing to adopt. The kid gets a stable environment and better start in life and the state wins too....these rates of pregnancy will soon plummet.

Moreover - no state support for those who have kids that fell pregnant whilst on benefits.

Simples ! But again no politician will do it in this crisis of moral leadership that we suffer from today.

Yes and all the babies would be dead of cold, starvation, abused in care homes etc and the ones that don't can just be jailed when their sh1t lives lead them to drugs and crime. Only need to wipe out one obliterate a generation less fortunate than most but as long as it 's not you or anyone you know hey?

What's your next policy, Benito? Get all Logan's Run to sort out the pension gap?

 

[Pazienza]

Residents in charge? Maybe I'd prefer them to be in the army, after all.

I read that Wellington was doing a tour of his troops before Waterloo. They were all in tents but all were drunk to the eyeballs and he said

"Napoleon says he isn't frightened of the British soldier but, I must say, they scare the hell out of me!"

Just an aside, but interesting that you mention Wellington. Despite his God-like status following his extraordinary string of military successes culminating with the final defeat of one of the greatest generals in history, he became quite unpopular at times in his subsequent political career.

So much so that in an outbreak of rioting (topical!) demonstrators smashed the windows of No 1 London. Before anyone says "Aha! There is no problem today, 'twas ever thus", I would point out that the rioters of yesteryear were motivated by anger over his opposition to the Reform Bill, rather than a desire to get some free stuff from JD Sports and fones4u.

 

[Pazienza]

Yes and all the babies would be dead of cold, starvation, abused in care homes etc and the ones that don't can just be jailed when their sh1t lives lead them to drugs and crime. Only need to wipe out one obliterate a generation less fortunate than most but as long as it 's not you or anyone you know hey?

What's your next policy, Benito? Get all Logan's Run to sort out the pension gap?

Fair point, of course. But what is the answer? If you want to get more of something, you subsidise it. Now I know for a fact (pace Dianne Abbot) that people do get pregnant largely for the benefits that they become entitled to. I know this because I know them and they are quite open about it. And indeed, why would they not do so? It is a perfectly rational choice for many people, or at least seems so at the time.

Like I said, I think we are talking about a multi-decade solution. The issue is complex and requires a complex set of actions to bring about improvement. But what for example would you do to begin to move us away from the current situation?

 

[bbmac]

For my next trick, er policy I mean :

I think they should shoot the last 5 to finish the London Marathon...we wouldn't see any chickens, pantomime horses , octogenarians and Jimmy Saville then - would we !?

Yes and all the babies would be dead of cold, starvation, abused in care homes etc and the ones that don't can just be jailed when their sh1t lives lead them to drugs and crime. Only need to wipe out one obliterate a generation less fortunate than most but as long as it 's not you or anyone you know hey?

What's your next policy, Benito? Get all Logan's Run to sort out the pension gap?

 

[Pazienza]

For my next trick, er policy I mean :

I think they should shoot the last 5 to finish the London Marathon...we wouldn't see any chickens, pantomime horses , octogenarians and Jimmy Saville then - would we !?

Too liberal. Shoot the last 5000. No idea what that running nonsense is about.

And before anyone says "charity", you don't need someone to dress up as a chicken and run 27 miles before you give a fiver to Oxfam or the British Heart Foundation. Just do it.

 

[bbmac]

So be it, and in the case of the scanario you deribe I refer you to the post above the one I made about tennage pregnancies.

I am a liberal at heart but serious problems require serious solutions, it's time to stop fecking about on so many issues...how much m,ore evidence do we need that certain policies, well meaning as they are - do not work !!

The human being is a flawed animal, we need structure discipline and a culture of rights weighed again responsibilities and rules to stop us turning in on each other along racial cultural class or other socio-economic lines. The layers of civil society we have built up over centuries of emancipation and struggle are at risk if we not address these serious issues. If parents can't teach their kids it the state needs to step in heavily in ameaningful effective way.

What was so shocking about this lawlessness is that it is clearly just beneath the surface, and whilst there was a lot of opportunistic theiving going on the 'feral rats' as one poor shopkeeper in Ealing called them asre undeniably youths from disadvantaged backgrounds.

Any for my next policy:

Reform of the criminal justice system

1. Full sentances are served - there is no time off for anything...and far harder sentances.
2. Looting/Rioting for eg attracts a minimum 10year sentance
2. Murder will be a minimum 25year sentance , more than one murder or a partuicularly henous murder (at discretion of an independant body) will attract a full life sentance - no chance of ever getting out.
3. Those on full life sentances can at any time choose to euthanase (humanely) - ie the sate should not take life but if the offender chooses to do so - the state will assist just like the cloinics in Switzerland do - humanely, painlessly and with dignity.

The sign of a good society isn't how many prisons we have - it is how few and with justice must come retribution and rehabiltation - and here is the carrot- we offer real rehabilitation - ie 2 x level;s of prison fo0r those that want/earn it and those that don't, those that do can get eductaed, off drugs and other benefits and real support once sentance served to ease the transition...those that don't - well then I refer you to point 1 downwards again. It is their choice.

Yes and all the babies would be dead of cold, starvation, abused in care homes etc and the ones that don't can just be jailed when their sh1t lives lead them to drugs and crime. Only need to wipe out one obliterate a generation less fortunate than most but as long as it 's not you or anyone you know hey?

What's your next policy, Benito? Get all Logan's Run to sort out the pension gap?

 

[scose-no-doubt]

Fair point, of course. But what is the answer? If you want to get more of something, you subsidise it. Now I know for a fact (pace Dianne Abbot) that people do get pregnant largely for the benefits that they become entitled to. I know this because I know them and they are quite open about it. And indeed, why would they not do so? It is a perfectly rational choice for many people, or at least seems so at the time.

Like I said, I think we are talking about a multi-decade solution. The issue is complex and requires a complex set of actions to bring about improvement. But what for example would you do to begin to move us away from the current situation?

Based on my experience... off the top of my head...
100% tax on profits above a certain level for utilities companies (based on bond yields).
3 rate CT system with hike at the higher rate with lower rate companies with t/o <1m
Very basic state benefits with behaviour linked discretionary payments e.g. child maintenance allowance linked to children's school attendance, punctuality and behaviour other benefits reduced for perpetual asbo types.
Longer prison sentencing subsidised by reduction in living standards. Extra benefits given for efforts pertaining to rehabilitation and relative academic performance. Ban on all money and clothing being sent in/given to prisoners.
Greater punishment for possession and/or being under the influence of drugs.
Compulsory education until 18 - non optional maths and English,
Tougher rules for parents whose children are tearaways.
Housing benefit cap lowered relative to market in local council jurisdiction, irrespective of amount of children or tenants.
Greater powers to seize and hold or destroy proceeds of crime - even suspected in the case of persistent offenders or those with track records.
Appealing tax breaks for employing local youngsters and part-timers in the case of parents.
More investment in government subsidised day care for working parents.

 

[scose-no-doubt]

Hahah I see we share similar ideas, BB.

 

[Pazienza]

Based on my experience... off the top of my head...
100% tax on profits above a certain level for utilities companies (based on bond yields).
3 rate CT system with hike at the higher rate with lower rate companies with t/o <1m
Very basic state benefits with behaviour linked discretionary payments e.g. child maintenance allowance linked to children's school attendance, punctuality and behaviour other benefits reduced for perpetual asbo types.
Longer prison sentencing subsidised by reduction in living standards. Extra benefits given for efforts pertaining to rehabilitation and relative academic performance. Ban on all money and clothing being sent in/given to prisoners.
Greater punishment for possession and/or being under the influence of drugs.
Compulsory education until 18 - non optional maths and English,
Tougher rules for parents whose children are tearaways.
Housing benefit cap lowered relative to market in local council jurisdiction, irrespective of amount of children or tenants.
Greater powers to seize and hold or destroy proceeds of crime - even suspected in the case of persistent offenders or those with track records.
Appealing tax breaks for employing local youngsters and part-timers in the case of parents.
More investment in government subsidised day care for working parents.

Some of that surprises me actually, It strikes me as quite draconian, although I think I can understand the motivation behind it.

 

[scose-no-doubt]

Some of that surprises me actually, It strikes me as quite draconian, although I think I can understand the motivation behind it.

really? what do you think is too Gestapo?

 

[Pat494]

The Army has an important job to do - they don't want to be bothered by good-for-nothing misfits from any class or group

Sad about the 3 Asian guys getting run over - they had the courage to stand up for their property etc. unlike most