AlexAndrews
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barjon said:
Cheers barjon - are they streamed live charts? I'll take a look tomorrow, anyway.
Alex
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Cheers barjon - are they streamed live charts? I'll take a look tomorrow, anyway.
Alex
AlexAndrews
the ftse indicie is not used for trading - you have to use the ftse future price in order to trade the ftse - the ftse futures price has a relationship with the fise indicie price, but the relatonship between the two is not fixed - it is continously variable by the moment with no set value to the variation - and the ftse futures price will lead the ftse indicie anyway, even at source, for both trading and technical reasons - but the actual ftse indicie data is also delayed anyway to the user in relation to the ftse futures data
so if you want to trade off yesterdays news - you go right ahead and use the ftse indicie! but rolling some dice would have the same value in relation to making money trading!!
the ftse indicie is not used for trading - you have to use the ftse future price in order to trade the ftse - the ftse futures price has a relationship with the fise indicie price, but the relatonship between the two is not fixed - it is continously variable by the moment with no set value to the variation - and the ftse futures price will lead the ftse indicie anyway, even at source, for both trading and technical reasons - but the actual ftse indicie data is also delayed anyway to the user in relation to the ftse futures data
so if you want to trade off yesterdays news - you go right ahead and use the ftse indicie! but rolling some dice would have the same value in relation to making money trading!!
Hi, est84: sorry if people with strong opinions and little information are putting you off. As I mentioned in my earlier post, there are some basic, free, real-time index charts with basic technical analysis parameters including EMA's available at yahoo. I used to find them very helpful.
Here are the exact url's (which I didn't have to hand when I originally replied this afternoon - sorry!).
For the FTSE:
http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/q?s=^FTSE&d=c&k=c3
For the Dow Jones:
http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/q?s=^dji&d=c
For the Dax:
http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/q?s=^gdaxi&d=c
For the Nasdaq:
http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/q?s=^ndx&d=c
For the FTSE-250:
http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/q?s=^ftmc&d=c
For the EuroStoxx-50:
http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/q?s=^stoxxe&d=c
As I mentioned, they are _not_ streaming: you have to click on "refresh" to update them.
Hope this helps.
Here are the exact url's (which I didn't have to hand when I originally replied this afternoon - sorry!).
For the FTSE:
http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/q?s=^FTSE&d=c&k=c3
For the Dow Jones:
http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/q?s=^dji&d=c
For the Dax:
http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/q?s=^gdaxi&d=c
For the Nasdaq:
http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/q?s=^ndx&d=c
For the FTSE-250:
http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/q?s=^ftmc&d=c
For the EuroStoxx-50:
http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/q?s=^stoxxe&d=c
As I mentioned, they are _not_ streaming: you have to click on "refresh" to update them.
Hope this helps.
hey roberto - you couldn't be trying to insult me could you!
the blind trying to lead those with impaired vision may have a happy ending in films - but not in trading!
take those blinkers off and start learning roberto - that information is worth exactly what it costs - zip all -but worse - all its gonna do is slow up or stop someone from one day becoming a real trader
if you have some good information - pass it round - but perhaps give it a bit of time until you know what is good or not - that is when you have at least 2 or 3 years successful trading under your belt - and preferably over 10
the blind trying to lead those with impaired vision may have a happy ending in films - but not in trading!
take those blinkers off and start learning roberto - that information is worth exactly what it costs - zip all -but worse - all its gonna do is slow up or stop someone from one day becoming a real trader
if you have some good information - pass it round - but perhaps give it a bit of time until you know what is good or not - that is when you have at least 2 or 3 years successful trading under your belt - and preferably over 10
the blades
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I use IGindex for FTSE100 future bets.
The price (depending on the length of contract) is usually within 1% of the current FTSE value, the majority of this deviation is the finance charge - which works both ways - if you're short on the FTSE it works in your favour.
I'm not sure how effective day trading the FTSE is with SB, but IMHO the deviations in price are not too significant, providing you are trading over a medium term time horizon.
You get a live tick chart with IG, though I don't use it and can't vouch for it. There are no tools.
To balance Stevet's warning tones I will just share my trading experience. I've been at this for around 3 years, getting into it during a nasty bear run. I've only recently found this site which although will no doubt become a great learning tool, to date it has served to inform me just how little I know about the whole trading game. However, I picked up some of the basics in my very early stages and have been profitable for each of those 3 years (and only recently have been short).
My point is only this - no doubt experience and knowledge continue to add to your trading edge and profit - no doubt most trader lose their shirt in the "early days" - but some traders are making money who know full well that they have 80% of the game yet to learn.
My advice, for what it's worth, is stick to the most basic trading rules until you can prove out your ability to use more advanced techniques. With my limited abilties and basic rules I will become a semi-full time trader next year with a view to full time the year after. Fingers crossed.
UTB
The price (depending on the length of contract) is usually within 1% of the current FTSE value, the majority of this deviation is the finance charge - which works both ways - if you're short on the FTSE it works in your favour.
I'm not sure how effective day trading the FTSE is with SB, but IMHO the deviations in price are not too significant, providing you are trading over a medium term time horizon.
You get a live tick chart with IG, though I don't use it and can't vouch for it. There are no tools.
To balance Stevet's warning tones I will just share my trading experience. I've been at this for around 3 years, getting into it during a nasty bear run. I've only recently found this site which although will no doubt become a great learning tool, to date it has served to inform me just how little I know about the whole trading game. However, I picked up some of the basics in my very early stages and have been profitable for each of those 3 years (and only recently have been short).
My point is only this - no doubt experience and knowledge continue to add to your trading edge and profit - no doubt most trader lose their shirt in the "early days" - but some traders are making money who know full well that they have 80% of the game yet to learn.
My advice, for what it's worth, is stick to the most basic trading rules until you can prove out your ability to use more advanced techniques. With my limited abilties and basic rules I will become a semi-full time trader next year with a view to full time the year after. Fingers crossed.
UTB
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AlexAndrews
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I want an indicie
Errr... no.
OK, I can see I'm going to have use very simple words. As I have previously observed, the FTSE is a share index, a number expressing the value of the share prices of its constituents. It is roughly calculated on a free-float market capitalization basis, so that companies with a greater market capitalization have a greater influence on its value (compare this with the calculation of the DOW). The value of the FTSE exists in isolation; it would exist even if there were no such instrument as a FTSE future. A FTSE future is a cash-settled contract to notionally buy or sell the FTSE at a certain price on a certain date; it could not exist if the FTSE did not have a readily calculable value at any given time. Clearly, there will be a very strong and direct correlation between the current value of the FTSE and the price at which a FTSE future trades, whether the latter be 100 points higher or lower than that of the FTSE. When I am "trading" the FTSE, I am generally spreadbetting its value over a short time period. For example, if I am trading the Daily FTSE Cash, I am ultimately interested in the value of the FTSE at the end of the day's trading, not the price of the December FTSE future - a contract based on the expected value of the FTSE in December. Clearly, as the future approaches its settlement date, the price of the future will tend towards the value of the FTSE, otherwise you get what is known as an arbitrage opportunity. Buying a FTSE future does not directly result in shares of all the constituents being bought, whereas the share price of the constituents are what define the value of the FTSE. Thus, when I'm trading the FTSE, I want to be able to see charts of the current price, not charts of what the market thinks the value will be in 3 months' time.
Now for the next question: do I put the horse before or after the cart?
Alex
stevet said:
Errr... no.
OK, I can see I'm going to have use very simple words. As I have previously observed, the FTSE is a share index, a number expressing the value of the share prices of its constituents. It is roughly calculated on a free-float market capitalization basis, so that companies with a greater market capitalization have a greater influence on its value (compare this with the calculation of the DOW). The value of the FTSE exists in isolation; it would exist even if there were no such instrument as a FTSE future. A FTSE future is a cash-settled contract to notionally buy or sell the FTSE at a certain price on a certain date; it could not exist if the FTSE did not have a readily calculable value at any given time. Clearly, there will be a very strong and direct correlation between the current value of the FTSE and the price at which a FTSE future trades, whether the latter be 100 points higher or lower than that of the FTSE. When I am "trading" the FTSE, I am generally spreadbetting its value over a short time period. For example, if I am trading the Daily FTSE Cash, I am ultimately interested in the value of the FTSE at the end of the day's trading, not the price of the December FTSE future - a contract based on the expected value of the FTSE in December. Clearly, as the future approaches its settlement date, the price of the future will tend towards the value of the FTSE, otherwise you get what is known as an arbitrage opportunity. Buying a FTSE future does not directly result in shares of all the constituents being bought, whereas the share price of the constituents are what define the value of the FTSE. Thus, when I'm trading the FTSE, I want to be able to see charts of the current price, not charts of what the market thinks the value will be in 3 months' time.
Now for the next question: do I put the horse before or after the cart?
Alex
AlexAndrews
the ftse futures contract at any given moment is the ftse price that traders trade off - it is not the expected price in 3 months - that is just when that contract expires - the ftse futures contract can be opened and closed at any point up to expiry
the ftse futures price at any given moment represents the exact price at that moment that traders feel is correct for the ftse index (fair value can be ignored since there is no other way to trade the ftse contract)
it dont matter how strong the direct correlation is befween the futures and cash index - the cash index is always lagging - so it is old information - so useless to trade off
i believe spreadbetting companies do offer a bet for which they use the closing price of the ftse index as the price that the bet can be closed at - but that is of no consequence - since the open of the bet is not based on the ftse index -but the price of the ftse futres contract at the moment the bet would be opened ( spreadbetting companies dress up the bet by calling it a ftse cash/day index bet or whatever - but whatever they call it - they still have to hedge in the market - and they have to hedge with futures - so their price has to be based on futures)
when ftse futures are bought - it can and will lead to the constituents changing price - since arbitrage is what keeps the ftse index and the ftse cash in relationship - but the ftse index always lagging
so to repeat - the ftse futures contract is not the expected price in 3 months - it is the expected price for the ftse index at that moment ( allowing for the technical fair value and trading fair value)
there are other technical reasons which i dont want to get into why the ftse index is not of value - but it is not accurate even as a ftse index
and there are trading reasons why it is impertative to use the futures contract and not the ftse index - since a key method of making large share purchases in the market requires a balance of buying futures conrtracts ahead of the share purchase and then closing the futures contracts once the shares have been bought
the futures contracts are the horse and the ftse index the cart
you seem to think much more deeply about the subject of index vs.futures - than most - and this relationship is one of the keys to understanding and being successful at trading - but you have a way to go yet and this subject always confuses learners who are determined that the cash index must be the leader - it is not - and spreadbettors have further confused the subject by offering apparent cash index bets as a marketing ploy
the ftse futures contract at any given moment is the ftse price that traders trade off - it is not the expected price in 3 months - that is just when that contract expires - the ftse futures contract can be opened and closed at any point up to expiry
the ftse futures price at any given moment represents the exact price at that moment that traders feel is correct for the ftse index (fair value can be ignored since there is no other way to trade the ftse contract)
it dont matter how strong the direct correlation is befween the futures and cash index - the cash index is always lagging - so it is old information - so useless to trade off
i believe spreadbetting companies do offer a bet for which they use the closing price of the ftse index as the price that the bet can be closed at - but that is of no consequence - since the open of the bet is not based on the ftse index -but the price of the ftse futres contract at the moment the bet would be opened ( spreadbetting companies dress up the bet by calling it a ftse cash/day index bet or whatever - but whatever they call it - they still have to hedge in the market - and they have to hedge with futures - so their price has to be based on futures)
when ftse futures are bought - it can and will lead to the constituents changing price - since arbitrage is what keeps the ftse index and the ftse cash in relationship - but the ftse index always lagging
so to repeat - the ftse futures contract is not the expected price in 3 months - it is the expected price for the ftse index at that moment ( allowing for the technical fair value and trading fair value)
there are other technical reasons which i dont want to get into why the ftse index is not of value - but it is not accurate even as a ftse index
and there are trading reasons why it is impertative to use the futures contract and not the ftse index - since a key method of making large share purchases in the market requires a balance of buying futures conrtracts ahead of the share purchase and then closing the futures contracts once the shares have been bought
the futures contracts are the horse and the ftse index the cart
you seem to think much more deeply about the subject of index vs.futures - than most - and this relationship is one of the keys to understanding and being successful at trading - but you have a way to go yet and this subject always confuses learners who are determined that the cash index must be the leader - it is not - and spreadbettors have further confused the subject by offering apparent cash index bets as a marketing ploy
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Roberto
not offended - and post whatever you want - but you may want to give some thought to the fact that when you have a few years successful trading under your belt - you may well be better equiped to evaluate someone else's direct and unequivocal comments which are aimed at helping learners to end up being real traders and not to waste both their time and money
not offended - and post whatever you want - but you may want to give some thought to the fact that when you have a few years successful trading under your belt - you may well be better equiped to evaluate someone else's direct and unequivocal comments which are aimed at helping learners to end up being real traders and not to waste both their time and money
est84,
I'm entering this debate rather late, but here is my view. Open a SB account at D4F. Ignore all the negative comments from disgruntled punters. Their platform is very good and they give you what you need to learn. Chart their FTSE Cash price, apply various TA indicators, and learn to trade it successfully. Following Stevet's view if you ignore the actual FTSE index you then don't have to worry about the dreaded SB bias. There won't be any bias to concern you because you are trading their Cash index directly. You also can receive live streaming share prices. If you stick to the FTSE 100 list you don't need to worry about bias or extra spread either.
Give it a go! But stick to £1 bets!
And YES, I am a successful SB trader, but I recognise that I have still a lot to learn.
regards,
G McA
I'm entering this debate rather late, but here is my view. Open a SB account at D4F. Ignore all the negative comments from disgruntled punters. Their platform is very good and they give you what you need to learn. Chart their FTSE Cash price, apply various TA indicators, and learn to trade it successfully. Following Stevet's view if you ignore the actual FTSE index you then don't have to worry about the dreaded SB bias. There won't be any bias to concern you because you are trading their Cash index directly. You also can receive live streaming share prices. If you stick to the FTSE 100 list you don't need to worry about bias or extra spread either.
Give it a go! But stick to £1 bets!
And YES, I am a successful SB trader, but I recognise that I have still a lot to learn.
regards,
G McA
AlexAndrews
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stevet said:
Sorry, stevet, but that is complete and utter rubbish.
"the ftse futures contract at any given moment is the ftse price that traders trade off - it is not the expected price in 3 months": No. The future price is the expected value of the index at a set time in the future, hence its name - that is its definition. That's really not open for debate. If you don't believe me, go and look it up!
"the ftse futures price at any given moment represents the exact price at that moment that traders feel is correct for the ftse index": Again, no. The futures price reflects the expected future value of the FTSE, based on its current value (see above). The fact that the September and December futures trade at different prices immediately contradicts your statement.
"when ftse futures are bought - it can and will lead to the constituents changing price": Errr, no. If the futures price rises 1%, will all the prices of the FTSE 100 shares go up 1%? No. If someone were to bid for Vodafone and the rise in its share price resulted in a 40 point rise for the FTSE, would the futures price rise 40 points? Pretty much.
"so to repeat - the ftse futures contract is not the expected price in 3 months - it is the expected price for the ftse index at that moment": Again, no. See above.
"and there are trading reasons why it is impertative to use the futures contract and not the ftse index - since a key method of making large share purchases in the market requires a balance of buying futures conrtracts ahead of the share purchase and then closing the futures contracts once the shares have been bought": Ahh, some semblance of accuracy! Yes, you can use the futures to hedge against the current value of the FTSE - that's really their primary function!
"you seem to think much more deeply about the subject of index vs.futures - than most - and this relationship is one of the keys to understanding and being successful at trading": I beg to differ. You have clearly demonstrated that it is not necessary to actually know or understand exactly what an instrument is in order to be able to trade it.
I think you may be confusing, say, commodity futures like Brent crude, with equity futures. It doesn't really make sense to talk about the current price of crude because there is no present-time quotable value for crude, and so the next best thing is to talk about the price of the front-month futures contract for crude as if it were the current price. As I said, you don't need to know or fully understand the instrument that you are trading in order to trade it.
But this has now rather diverged from my initial question of if there is a site providing free live streaming charts of the value of the FTSE.
Alex
dr_d_michaelson
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AlexAndrews said:
Correct, but not exactly news.
The only person who correctly answered the original request for information was "Roberto" and then "stevet" (whose incorrect answer had been exposed for what it was) then promptly jumped down his throat for not having enough years of trading experience to answer!
It's a strange old thread. :!:
DR...or may I call you doc....no it isn't a strange thread..it is the opposite...very normal or usual..by that I mean do you know how difficult it is to take in any information and respond to it without actually incorporating some judgmental view or bias that bears no relation to the information presented?.....put it this way you would go poor very quickly 'betting' on the probability of it happening often....this is not criticising anybody..I do it myself..indeed I purposely did it by calling you doc..which may be correct or incorrect...
Cheers
Cheers
dr_d_michaelson said:Correct, but not exactly news.
The only person who correctly answered the original request for information was "Roberto" and then "stevet" (whose incorrect answer had been exposed for what it was) then promptly jumped down his throat for not having enough years of trading experience to answer!
It's a strange old thread. :!:
Don't worry on my account, doc. I have enough years of experience to know where the free real-time index charts are, (including what stevet rather endearingly refers to as the "the FTSE indicie"!!), and I'm getting used to being patronised by opinionated and factually incorrect folk around here. A certain thickness-of-skin is no bad thing for posting on a public bulletin-board. Not a dermatologist, are you?
AlexAndrews
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AlexAndrews said:
barjon,
I've had a look at the livecharts.co.uk site now. Unfortunately, although it shows a live chart of the FTSE, it is not streaming - I think it is some sort of auto-refreshing page in an i-frame. And I see what you mean about the adverts. But thanks anyway.
BTW I checked again, and the live streaming UK indices service on ADVFN is ~£30pcm.
Alex
barjon
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AlexAndrews said:
alex
mmm, the ftse's recalculated about every 10 seconds isn't it? If you want every 10 secs worth for free, then either livecharts or yahoo (making your own auto-refresh for every 1min or 30 secs or whatever) + bloombergs little market scan window (or the telly) would get you pretty close. You must be scalping with a vengeance and have a pretty fast trigger finger if you want much better
regards and good trading
jon
AlexAndrews
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barjon said:alex
mmm, the ftse's recalculated about every 10 seconds isn't it? If you want every 10 secs worth for free, then either livecharts or yahoo (making your own auto-refresh for every 1min or 30 secs or whatever) + bloombergs little market scan window (or the telly) would get you pretty close. You must be scalping with a vengeance and have a pretty fast trigger finger if you want much better
regards and good trading
jon
Hi jon,
Yes, I've just downloaded the Ground Rules for the Management of The UK Series of the FTSE Actuaries Share Indices document, in which it states:
12.2 CALCULATION FREQUENCY
12.2.1 The following indices will be calculated in real-time and published every minute during their opening hours using real time prices.
- FTSE 100 (published every 15 seconds)
All trhe best,
Alex
AlexAndrews
ok alex - the reason there is a difference between the sep and dec is that there is a difference in the carry to those dates - that is, whilst there is no dividend receivable with futures - futures also give you high leverage realtive to the underlying - and the difference between the sep and the dec future is that you have exposure to the market for the extra period to the dec - and the difference between the sep price and the dec price is to take acccount the interest value- if they were exactly the same value - you would be getting a free ride on the interest of the notional underlying value on which the futures are based
so - the futures, be it the sep, dec of whatever, represent the real trading value of the ftse, and any difference between the contract expiry dates is due to interest carry or momentary differences due to liquidity issues on the contacts - but it is definelty, 100%, in stone, not the value expected at expiry - except to the extent that the value stayed the same from that moment to expiry
the expiry is the period that that contract gives you exposure to the market
this stuff is so so basic
ok alex - the reason there is a difference between the sep and dec is that there is a difference in the carry to those dates - that is, whilst there is no dividend receivable with futures - futures also give you high leverage realtive to the underlying - and the difference between the sep and the dec future is that you have exposure to the market for the extra period to the dec - and the difference between the sep price and the dec price is to take acccount the interest value- if they were exactly the same value - you would be getting a free ride on the interest of the notional underlying value on which the futures are based
so - the futures, be it the sep, dec of whatever, represent the real trading value of the ftse, and any difference between the contract expiry dates is due to interest carry or momentary differences due to liquidity issues on the contacts - but it is definelty, 100%, in stone, not the value expected at expiry - except to the extent that the value stayed the same from that moment to expiry
the expiry is the period that that contract gives you exposure to the market
this stuff is so so basic
i have always been quite vocal in a negative way about people who call themselves trading trainers and take money off learners - based on the fact that even if a trainer supported a learner day in day out for six months , the learner would still only just be getting to grips with trading - and a real trader knows that and so wouldn't take money off some one for a one or few day course
but my assumption was that the learners were naieve in giving these trainers the money
having done a dance on this thread with some learners - i can now see there is so much arrogance in those who dont know jack **** - that i am begining to see that these trainers - no matter what they take the learners for - are probably not screwing them for enough - the spreadbetting companies will get all their money in the end - so might as well share it out a bit
but my assumption was that the learners were naieve in giving these trainers the money
having done a dance on this thread with some learners - i can now see there is so much arrogance in those who dont know jack **** - that i am begining to see that these trainers - no matter what they take the learners for - are probably not screwing them for enough - the spreadbetting companies will get all their money in the end - so might as well share it out a bit
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AlexAndrews
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So, stevet, we have gone from:
to
So, in fact, you do now agree that the futures price is derived from the value of the FTSE index? Thank God we've finally got that sorted out. This latest pearl of wisdom is in fact almost right, but not quite - you also have to take into account expected dividend payments. But it's good to see that you're making progress. In fact, you might find it instructive to look at the worked example at http://www.fillyaboots.com/?mount=/derivatives/futures_opt_info.htm.
But I'm still rather at a loss to understand what you mean when you say "the futures, be it the sep, dec of whatever, represent the real trading value of the ftse". Perhaps you mean that the futures price represents the inverse NPV (net present value) calculation for the future's expiry date of the current FTSE value? Now that I would agree with - after all, that is what is described in the preceding paragraph; but that also would rather contradict your "tea leaves" statement since it implies the futures price is derived from the value of the FTSE (note: not the other way round). Anyhow, all of this rather neatly brings me back to my initial interest and the subject of this thread: being able to see a live streaming FTSE chart.
"this stuff is so so basic" - I agree, I'm really surprised you haven't grasped it yet. Or perhaps you have, but you suffer from an abject inability to express your knowledge and understanding accurately? I'm afraid I'm still laughing at your "the futures contracts are the horse and the ftse index the cart".
Alex
stevet said:
to
stevet said:
So, in fact, you do now agree that the futures price is derived from the value of the FTSE index? Thank God we've finally got that sorted out. This latest pearl of wisdom is in fact almost right, but not quite - you also have to take into account expected dividend payments. But it's good to see that you're making progress. In fact, you might find it instructive to look at the worked example at http://www.fillyaboots.com/?mount=/derivatives/futures_opt_info.htm.
But I'm still rather at a loss to understand what you mean when you say "the futures, be it the sep, dec of whatever, represent the real trading value of the ftse". Perhaps you mean that the futures price represents the inverse NPV (net present value) calculation for the future's expiry date of the current FTSE value? Now that I would agree with - after all, that is what is described in the preceding paragraph; but that also would rather contradict your "tea leaves" statement since it implies the futures price is derived from the value of the FTSE (note: not the other way round). Anyhow, all of this rather neatly brings me back to my initial interest and the subject of this thread: being able to see a live streaming FTSE chart.
"this stuff is so so basic" - I agree, I'm really surprised you haven't grasped it yet. Or perhaps you have, but you suffer from an abject inability to express your knowledge and understanding accurately? I'm afraid I'm still laughing at your "the futures contracts are the horse and the ftse index the cart".
Alex
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