Pulling the trigger!

[lote_tree]

Hi fellow traders,

For nearly a year I've been studying the markets diligently to grasp the essence of this art that we call trading. I've read countless books, studied the important threads I could find on most of the best trading websites around.

I've finally developed a method that is consistent with my personality. Most importantly, the method works. The core of my method is built upon P/V analysis meshed with MP, pivot points and the tape. My risk management and money management startegy is based upon the following principle: Maximise Size, Minimise Risk.

I get up in the morning before the 8am FTSE 100 kick off. My day finishes at 8.15pm when the U.S markets close. For the next two hours I study charts for the markets I track. Drawing trend lines, S/R levels, MP levels and calculating pivot points for the next day. I generate scenarios of what I will do when price reaches certain levels during the day. I visualise how price will have to behave in order for me to get in to a position. I visulaise what price must look like in order for me to get out of a position. I visulaise what will keep me out of the market when price reaches critical levels.
I do this everyday.

All this prep work is useless because I still haven't got over one thing. And that's pulling the trigger. I've found that I'm extremely risk averse and that all the probablities must be in my favour before I pull the trigger. To the point where Gordon Gekko is screaming in my head "Don't throw darts at a board kid, bet on sure things!". I'm treating my captial like the last thing I have on earth.

I've found that when the critical time comes to pulling the trigger I freeze and for that split second I find an excuse not to take the trade. This is not an arbitrary number but approx 80% of the time price goes on to make a chunk. With an average reward: risk of 3.4:1. The good news is that I always feel there will be other opportunities that will come my way.

I feel that if I can get over this part I'll be right as rain and can continue with my learning but with actual trades. This business is the toughest business I've ever encountered. But I love it!

Anyone have some good adivce for this beginner?

Cheers in advance

 

[Lee Shepherd]

My advice is simple and effective:

Paper trade and get some real live forward testing, if you've done this already and still wont hit the button then you are still obviously nervous about and doubt your own tested system.

If you've tested something and it keeps giving positive results then why would you not back it the very next day or more to the point when you feel you have tested it to satifactory levels.

Keep testing and paper trade, when you are confident you will pull the trigger with ease.

 

[tomorton]

Start with minimum stakes: if your method holds you will only sustain small drawdowns. But the game does change when you put money in, so be prepared to adapt if real drawdowns re uncomfortably greater than paper. If there was no risk of loss in trading, there would be no possibility of an significant gain, so you have to accept periodic losing trades are a business overhead, not a calamity.

If you cannot sleep with even the tiniest loss, maybe this is the wrong game for you and you should keep the money in a savings account.

 

[Crap Buddist]

Your the pimp...be the pimp..

I'm treating my captial like the last thing I have on earth.

No wonder then that you are reluctant to let go of it?

Minima risk=maxima execution=trading.

Result not important, trade important.

Even without a cent to your name you are still a valuable person. You know what society wants to say though to keep you shackled ?

fly, fly, fly.....

 

[Crap Buddist]

Yah, thinking on....... It can hold people back if they see the be all and end all of using a dollar yardstick to measure self worth, so that ties in with willingness to let go of money , its not the last thing on earth.

Now even when a trader see's this and gets a nice warm feeling for life , he then needs to reduce size, why ? Because he loves trading and wants to stay in the game to trade. Maximise size is ok providing you dont mind losing all the money? but it aint ok if you dont want to lose from participating in trading, that which you love.

Like an artist loves to paint, result not important, trade important. Its beautiful.

Foget money (outside of trading) forget yourself, remember trading.

Summary. Money means jack = life is priceless I am valuable, = I'm free to trade.

Trading means something,more than money I love it. = minimise risk so I can continually trade.And be.

Then you have arrived to chop wood carry water.

 

[black bear]

Not ready yet imho........ DEMO & Execute

Hi fellow traders,

For nearly a year I've been studying the markets diligently to grasp the essence of this art that we call trading. I've read countless books, studied the important threads I could find on most of the best trading websites around.

I've finally developed a method that is consistent with my personality. Most importantly, the method works. The core of my method is built upon P/V analysis meshed with MP, pivot points and the tape. My risk management and money management startegy is based upon the following principle: Maximise Size, Minimise Risk.

I get up in the morning before the 8am FTSE 100 kick off. My day finishes at 8.15pm when the U.S markets close. For the next two hours I study charts for the markets I track. Drawing trend lines, S/R levels, MP levels and calculating pivot points for the next day. I generate scenarios of what I will do when price reaches certain levels during the day. I visualise how price will have to behave in order for me to get in to a position. I visulaise what price must look like in order for me to get out of a position. I visulaise what will keep me out of the market when price reaches critical levels.
I do this everyday.

All this prep work is useless because I still haven't got over one thing. And that's pulling the trigger. I've found that I'm extremely risk averse and that all the probablities must be in my favour before I pull the trigger. To the point where Gordon Gekko is screaming in my head "Don't throw darts at a board kid, bet on sure things!". I'm treating my captial like the last thing I have on earth.

I've found that when the critical time comes to pulling the trigger I freeze and for that split second I find an excuse not to take the trade. This is not an arbitrary number but approx 80% of the time price goes on to make a chunk. With an average reward: risk of 3.4:1. The good news is that I always feel there will be other opportunities that will come my way.

I feel that if I can get over this part I'll be right as rain and can continue with my learning but with actual trades. This business is the toughest business I've ever encountered. But I love it!

Anyone have some good adivce for this beginner?

Cheers in advance

Hi lote_tree

Your not ready yet thats all, stop flapping and take a chill pill, all good things come to those that wait

Good advice above imho, I solved the same problem by re-demo trade for a month and took it very serious

= no work demo trade live no trade real ever again,

Sort of moved the pressure to something I just could not imagine not doing ever again, bit like Craps advice I made money less important and the doing very very important.

I just sat there scared to death of failing but no money at risk, I think that is in fact at the route of a lot of trading hang ups / blocks or whatever you want to call them.

FEAR of failure, your confronting something that you have worked very hard on, you no it works and you want to whip on and show everybody and yourself.

Demo trading it proper is moving forward and it will move you forward to.

Execute Execute Execute for a whole month then examine the results. Do it again if required.

When you trade the real market with your method you have to be right inside ~

Ready, follow the above advice and you will no I promise, you will get to the point you just have to no for real or no your still not ready.

Ready deep within to except anything any outcome and be prepared to lose the lot every last cent so make sure your whole bank at risk is outside those feelings.

The voice your hearing in your head is your instinct, get to no him well and listen to him, if you are at the stage I think your at he is just starting to tell you the truth, be on your guard and execute your plan to the letter and make notes of every trade and what that voice was telling you at the time. Do nothing about it just yet = thats a year or two away.

Sounds like you have put a lot of hard work in, do not F..ck up at this stage your nearly there

Nearly there = Your real go to see if your really good enough, thats all, not make a million in two weeks, though it would be nice

Good Luck and all the best :clover:

 

[lote_tree]

Hi guys

Thanks for your help. Really appreciate the input.

I just sat there scared to death of failing but no money at risk, I think that is in fact at the route of a lot of trading hang ups / blocks or whatever you want to call them.

I've had the same experience. When I've paper traded even though it's obviously not real money, I have been scared to death! lol

There is nothing wrong with the method. It works and contiues to work everyday, the problem is me. I just don't know what's holding me back. It's true what they say, countless excutions on a paper trading account even if taken extremely seriously, is worlds apart from when you have to do it for real.

I'm not even under capitalised either. I'm not going to give exact figures but I'm serious enough about this to invest 6 figures into this business. And loosing it is not an option.

I was thinking of trying out a strategy that allows me to bring my stop to breakeven a.s.a.p. I don't care whether I get stopped out and miss a big move in my favour, I'd prefer to have 80% of my trades to be scratch trades and 19% winning trades.

Anybody have a strategy similar to this?

Btw, I follow the S&P 500 and the Goldman Sachs trader in the S&P pit was selling all morning. She wash short about 1500 big's and obviously got burned because of the late morning rally. I thought to myself, I'm so pathetic, I can't even pull the trigger for 1 contract yet!

 

[black bear]

my hit rate is high (80%) and I miss large moves for that reason alone

miss a lot of losers to and experience very little drawdown so

You want the best foget the rest imho, gets on your nerves at times if you end up churning forward slowly and dwell on might have beens............

Better out of a good trade than in a bad one

Pays your money takes your chance = your method = your decision = only you no = no one else

Trader dante trades a method and does excellent with it by all accounts, I would never sleep for .............. perhaps a month looking at some of his trades

He nows it all works out in the end, so should you.

All the best and good luck

 

[black bear]

Final thought

Horse race betting

Lot of research done regards largest bets an individual can take and still maintain their centre

Finding ~ Its individual and its very very hard to up your level because it relates to your class as an individual

My limit on the horses was £500, I was on the 5/2 - 5/1 horses. No amount of effort got me to lay more.

You may find the same following winners = close down = tighten up = not take the trade

All part of the game, poker players feel it to, you just have to want to get through it or quit

 

[Lee Shepherd]

Just a couple of noted discrepancies.

If your strategy works,"everyday", why look for someone else's that may not?
Having multiple strategies will not help and will only lead to confusing you and conflicting with your own tested and fully working successful strategy.

Paper trading to trading with real money has no difference no matter what people say, it's all in the head. If you trade one way then that is the way you trade whether its your money, a firms money or no-ones money. You trade the same system and do what it says. Thats it. No difference. If you didn't know you had money on the line you'd trade the same, regardless. Money or no money - Obey the system that you say works.
If you still have trouble and believe you can make plenty of money on your capital then look into hiring someone for £200 a week to sit there and push the button when you say.

Being scared to death to trade: once you've paper traded for so long you'll be so bored that pushing the button will be second nature. In fact, if your sure then pushing the button is the easiest of the tasks, research is where it begins, strategy is the main and taking the trade is the beginning of the end, have your stops set, your limits in hand and your risk/reward ratio pre-determined.

Your problem obviously stems from losing money and is associated with fear. Try small stakes and work your way up. Dont start going on about not worried about losing money and that you've six figures to throw at it. Losing money is always an issue whether you're Alan Sugar, Richard Branson or a guy who works in a bar. Its all relative to ones earnings.

Take your time and dont rush it, the markets will be here tommorow and the next day and the day after that - Rush it and your balance wont be.

Good Luck.

Hi guys

I've had the same experience. When I've paper traded even though it's obviously not real money, I have been scared to death! lol

There is nothing wrong with the method. It works and contiues to work everyday, the problem is me. I just don't know what's holding me back. It's true what they say, countless excutions on a paper trading account even if taken extremely seriously, is worlds apart from when you have to do it for real.

I'm not even under capitalised either. I'm not going to give exact figures but I'm serious enough about this to invest 6 figures into this business. And loosing it is not an option.

I was thinking of trying out a strategy that allows me to bring my stop to breakeven a.s.a.p. I don't care whether I get stopped out and miss a big move in my favour, I'd prefer to have 80% of my trades to be scratch trades and 19% winning trades.

Anybody have a strategy similar to this?

Btw, I follow the S&P 500 and the Goldman Sachs trader in the S&P pit was selling all morning. She wash short about 1500 big's and obviously got burned because of the late morning rally. I thought to myself, I'm so pathetic, I can't even pull the trigger for 1 contract yet!

 

[new_trader]

Paper trading to trading with real money has no difference no matter what people say, it's all in the head. If you trade one way then that is the way you trade whether its your money, a firms money or no-ones money. You trade the same system and do what it says. Thats it. No difference. If you didn't know you had money on the line you'd trade the same, regardless.

If whatever is inside the head makes the difference then there IS a difference. I used to be in the 'seamless' transition camp until I moved away from 'system' trading. System traders shouldn't experience any difference between paper trading and live trading as long as they obediently follow the triggers that their beautiful, statistically derived back tested system gives. If they can't, then they lack confidence in the system and not themselves. Discretionary trading is a different matter altogether. A discretionary trader draws upon their experience and their own ability to judge the market at any given time. There is added pressure when trading with money because a misjudgement results is a loss, it isn't just added to a pre-determined statistic that system traders desperately cling to for security....“Oh, another loss, that’s Ok, it’s just one of the 65.55768% I expect trading this system”

 

[A Dashing Blade]

Sit down and read "Trading In The Zone" by Mark Douglas (available free on t'internet in pdf format if you hunt around)

 

[black bear]

late thought based on your post that occured to me ~

You have no overhaul plan to move forward, you have a trading plan but thats not the same thing imo

You say you have no capital problems = 6 fig sum to trade with

Have a holiday (busmans) with minimum amount 5K and trade one lot, if your method is infact great (I do not now obviously)

Above represents very little risk to you imho, years interest will cover it I would have thought easy =

You have no real risk at all do you, treat it as a hobby till it proves otherwise inho

If you fail = You now = You will be better for nowing = move on = Cost you a years interest

Must be worth that much just to now once and for all ?

If it goes well and you double your bank in a year = you will have a years interest + another years interest and you will now its good............so all round and no more or far less head trouble.

As Hook says its all in your head

 

[black bear]

Sit down and read "Trading In The Zone" by Mark Douglas (available free on t'internet in pdf format if you hunt around)

you do not have a link do you

 

[Lee Shepherd]

Hey look, if your gonna pick me up on one thing on my lenghty post then fine, I'm just trying to help. But I'll except I stand corrected. There is a difference between paper and money trading, the message I thought was clear. Obviously not so I'll make it clear as to not get misquoted or taken out of context.

There is no difference between paper trading and trading with cash, its all in your head:
EDIT: In your head is the only difference. (so is aliens landing in the backyard and distracting you from trading)

Trying to help a new trader understand trading is relatively simple until we start nitpicking at each others words.

Lets help this guy by throwing him personal suggestions and let him decide what he wants to take or throw away, otherwise we steer the thread away from him and start having a discussion ourselves.

If whatever is inside the head makes the difference then there IS a difference. I used to be in the 'seamless' transition camp until I moved away from 'system' trading. System traders shouldn't experience any difference between paper trading and live trading as long as they obediently follow the triggers that their beautiful, statistically derived back tested system gives. If they can't, then they lack confidence in the system and not themselves. Discretionary trading is a different matter altogether. A discretionary trader draws upon their experience and their own ability to judge the market at any given time. There is added pressure when trading with money because a misjudgement results is a loss, it isn't just added to a pre-determined statistic that system traders desperately cling to for security....“Oh, another loss, that’s Ok, it’s just one of the 65.55768% I expect trading this system”

 

[lote_tree]

If your strategy works,"everyday", why look for someone else's that may not?
Having multiple strategies will not help and will only lead to confusing you and conflicting with your own tested and fully working successful strategy.

I didn't ask for a new strategy in relation to the timing of entry and exits. It was specifically dealing with the very early stages of the trade management process. I think scratch trades might be my best friend

I think many of the points raised here have been very helpul. One in particular is the position sizing aspect. I think you guy's are right, I'm going to try one contract positions to start off with.

Discretionary trading is a different matter altogether. A discretionary trader draws upon their experience and their own ability to judge the market at any given time. There is added pressure when trading with money because a misjudgement results is a loss, it isn't just added to a pre-determined statistic that system traders desperately cling to for security....“Oh, another loss, that’s Ok, it’s just one of the 65.55768% I expect trading this system”

Interesting because I'm in the discretionary camp. System trading has never appealed to me but I can now see that it does have some value when it comes to the psychology part.

I thank all of you that have taken the time to reply your input has been very valuable.
I'm going to try the 30 yr U.S treasury bonds today. I'll start off with 1 contract when the times right. Like someone said earlier, I think I just need to get into the habit of pulling the trigger for real.

 

[colincolin]

ill fund it

hi mate if you are achieving 80% success without actually placing the bets I would be intrested to trade those bets on my capital spreads account and give you a cut of the profits as I have not had the time to study the best way to bet ,but I have 30k in my spread bet account ,how dose this sound

Hi fellow traders,

For nearly a year I've been studying the markets diligently to grasp the essence of this art that we call trading. I've read countless books, studied the important threads I could find on most of the best trading websites around.

I've finally developed a method that is consistent with my personality. Most importantly, the method works. The core of my method is built upon P/V analysis meshed with MP, pivot points and the tape. My risk management and money management startegy is based upon the following principle: Maximise Size, Minimise Risk.

I get up in the morning before the 8am FTSE 100 kick off. My day finishes at 8.15pm when the U.S markets close. For the next two hours I study charts for the markets I track. Drawing trend lines, S/R levels, MP levels and calculating pivot points for the next day. I generate scenarios of what I will do when price reaches certain levels during the day. I visualise how price will have to behave in order for me to get in to a position. I visulaise what price must look like in order for me to get out of a position. I visulaise what will keep me out of the market when price reaches critical levels.
I do this everyday.

All this prep work is useless because I still haven't got over one thing. And that's pulling the trigger. I've found that I'm extremely risk averse and that all the probablities must be in my favour before I pull the trigger. To the point where Gordon Gekko is screaming in my head "Don't throw darts at a board kid, bet on sure things!". I'm treating my captial like the last thing I have on earth.

I've found that when the critical time comes to pulling the trigger I freeze and for that split second I find an excuse not to take the trade. This is not an arbitrary number but approx 80% of the time price goes on to make a chunk. With an average reward: risk of 3.4:1. The good news is that I always feel there will be other opportunities that will come my way.

I feel that if I can get over this part I'll be right as rain and can continue with my learning but with actual trades. This business is the toughest business I've ever encountered. But I love it!

Anyone have some good adivce for this beginner?

Cheers in advance

 

[lote_tree]

hi mate if you are achieving 80% success without actually placing the bets I would be intrested to trade those bets on my capital spreads account and give you a cut of the profits as I have not had the time to study the best way to bet ,but I have 30k in my spread bet account ,how dose this sound

Hi matey,

Thanks for the offer but I don't think it's a good idea for many reasons.

First being that I don't want to be responsible for the fate of your account.
Second, my style of trading isn't suitable for a spread betting environment.

Give me a shout in 2 years time. I might be able to help you then

P.S

I've finally made some live trades.

2 S&P's and 1 Crude Oil.

1 scratch, 1 $726 loss and 1 crude oil position trade which is in profit by $2392.80 at the moment. It was in profit by $4120 earlier today. I've been waiting for this crude oil trade for ages. I hope it works out!

Phew!

 

[Trdr]

lote_tree, purchase professional assistance, very, very few are able to help themselves

I've a post somewhere listing an NLP practioner who someone states 'cured' them in one
session - if memory serves, however hypnotists / psychologists-hypnotists are the ones
most traders, portfolio / fund managers etc use

expect to have several sessions at £1-200 ? per session, you'll need to search - some may
have websites otherwise Yellow pages - and speak with each one directly re rates and to
ensure they work with traders etc, and to get an idea if you 'like' what you hear they are
saying before committing to them

while the 'fear of loss' is associated with loss of money the therapist works at identifying
what in the personality gives rise to the fear and works to treat that, which will in turn
overcome what's preventing the trigger being pulled
. . .

 

[lote_tree]

Hi Tdr,

Thanks for the advice matey.

I've actually studied NLP. And you're right, it's actually very difficult to help yourself even if you know the tools.

I've finally pulled the trigger and feel a big sense of relief. There's a long hard road ahead but stage 1 is now complete

:clap: